Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Tank]

I understand that you think it's one of the worst retcons - I'm not too fond of it myself - but we can't just disregard what is considered canon just because we don't like it. I mean, technically, we can, but we're always going to be confronted with it, i.e., canon. Now, had the editors and writers explicitly retconned the retcon, I would have no problem acknowledging the Phoenix clone as 100% Jean Grey. As it stands, it simply was not.

As for what it means to Jean, in my opinion, whether you acknowledge the retcon or not, her story is so rich and intricate, it is a rewarding one to follow and it only continues to evolve and grow. Bendis and all of the other writers that adhered to his vision, especially Hopeless, and Taylor reminded me that Jean is so much more than just the Phoenix. She is a founding member of the X-Men and its first female teammate. I believe she is also Marvel's first telekinetic and first telekinetic/telepathic character.



Frankly, I don't think my point is mysterious. Furthermore, I don't think I've acted as if I've stumbled upon new information or figured something out that no one else has. My thread regarding this matter is centered on a question, not a declaration. I'm curious to read how others view Jean in relation to both the Phoenix and Sinister clones because that is what they have been established being: clones. Moreover, they are clones that at one point both shared the same fragment of her psyche, which is something else I'm curious to see how others reconcile.

You keep posting stuff from x-factor and when she first came back 30 years ago. But choose to ignore more recent stuff. As far as the most recent phoenix resurrection , Morrison’s run, and AvX other issues they refer to Jean as Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.

[Mercury]

You keep posting stuff from x-factor and when she first came back 30 years ago. But choose to ignore more recent stuff. As far as the most recent phoenix resurrection , Morrison's run, and AvX other issues they refer to Jean as Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.

I haven't ignored either of those storylines, just like I haven't ignored instances in which Jean claims responsibility for what happened during the Dark Phoenix Saga. However, she makes it a point to say she was connected to those events, not the absolute cause of them.

Many of the post-X-Factor examples you and others have posted are vague allusions, which are not the same as explicitly saying, "Phoenix/Dark Phoenix was Jean Grey." Again, there has been no official retcon of the retcon. Trust me; I've been in the position you are in before, have had it thrown in my face that "That wasn't really Jean," and have not been able to rebut that fact adequately. The only difference is that now I don't care to.

Furthermore, the more I look at it, the more accepting that Jean was Phoenix/Dark Phoenix but not Madelyne up until her "death" in Inferno makes absolutely no sense.

[Wiccan]

I understand that you think it's one of the worst retcons - I'm not too fond of it myself - but we can't just disregard what is considered canon just because we don't like it. I mean, technically, we can, but we're always going to be confronted with it, i.e., canon. Now, had the editors and writers explicitly retconned the retcon, I would have no problem acknowledging the Phoenix clone as 100% Jean Grey. As it stands, it simply was not.

You don't have to ignore that the retcon itself exists but there are other ways to interpret it, like I talked about in the other thread. And even if there's no actual retcon, most stories after the 90's do in fact treat DPS and etc as if it was really just Jean with no mention of the retcon. If even the writers can ignore it/disconsider it we sure as hell can too lol.

Frankly, I don't think my point is mysterious. Furthermore, I don't think I've acted as if I've stumbled upon new information or figured something out that no one else has. My thread regarding this matter is centered on a question, not a declaration. I'm curious to read how others view Jean in relation to both the Phoenix and Sinister clones because that is what they have been established being: clones. Moreover, they are clones that at one point both shared the same fragment of her psyche, which is something else I'm curious to see how others reconcile.

Well, like I said, I do think there can be an interesting discussion about it, when it comes to the Phoenix Jean x Madelyne comparison, I just don't see the point in posting it here. Though, even there, I don't think people who disagree with you haven't seen those panels.

[Omega_DCD]

Just going to throw this out there from my own patched together theories and headcanon as it relates to this particular differentiation between Phoenix/Jean and Maddie.

Phoenix/Jean was as true and completely a copy of Jean as could be. Beyond the body, beyond the memories, Jean's ESSENTIAL SELF was infused into the new Jean/Phoenix gestalt...for simplicity's sake let's call it Jean's core personality, forged from her unique life experiences up to this point, and that which informs and influences her life going forward(as would prove to be crucial on that fateful day on the moon in UXM 137, Jean's heroism and self-sacrificetriumphing over Dark Phoenix). As Emma once said "The Phoenix was Jean"(her life, her memories, her personality...her human and mortal perspective)..."Jean wasn't the Phoenix"(The Force's true natural state, cosmic scale awareness). Anyway, this is all stoked and ANIMATED by Jean's LIFE FORCE.

Maddie is a different story. She was physically created through artificial means, with incomplete jumbled memories with no prior (nyuk nyuk) life experiences to attach them to, which were further filtered and manipulated by Mr. Sinister. And the biggest difference, Maddie was not imbued with Jean's CORE PERSONALITY. What animated Maddie was the portion of JEAN'S LIFE FORCE that animated Jean/Phoenix. The life force is simply catalytic fuel...it starts Maddie's life...which is then shaped by her personality which is informed from manipulated memories combined with primal emotions (Jean's love for Scott, at the forefront of the dying moment that released Jean's life force)

So when Dark Phoenix died, what happened? It wasn't quite the end it thought it would be, instead it was a reset. The mortal shell ceased to be, but the "spirit" remained...Jean's LIFE FORCE was sent to Earth, rejected by Jean prime and infused into Maddie...but Jean's CORE PERSONALITY remained with the Phoenix. Phoenix soon encounters Rachel's Astral form and the extreme similarity to Jean begs further investigation. Anyway y'all know the details but I posit that this Phoenix, possessing Jean's personality, is why it acts so maternal and protective of Rachel. Also, Phoenix/Jean felt remorse over Dark Phoenix, and through Rachel, sought redemption. It inhabits Rachel, silently giving Rachel access to the Force, but hides it's true sentience(born of Jean's personality)

Eventually, after Rachel dies fighting Necrom, and Phoenix takes over fully while Rachel's psyche heals, she encounters Galactus and learns this hybrid existence turns her into a parasite, stealing from future life unborn to maintain itself on this plane of existence. It goes into existential crisis, meets with death AGAIN, and learns it must shed this human consciousness. After revealing all of this to a fully restored Rachel, it returns to its natural non-sentient state, leaving Rachel with reduced access to the Force

So where did the consciousness (from Jean's personality) go? I think it went back to Jean(and wouldn't be the last time we see Jean losing/gathering fragments of herself). Jean does go through a shift after that moment. When Jean first meets Rachel, Jean is confused and upset (for various reasons). After the Phoenix sheds its consciousness, Jean soon comes around to Rachel, formally apologizes, and let's Rachel be the first to know her plans to propose to Scott, knowing full well how meaningful that is to Rachel.

Jean had a maternal side, we saw this with Baby Nathan, but she still felt detached. Rachel was much more difficult as she was linked to a POWER that for Jean represented destruction and life stolen...and a FUTURE that if inevitable, makes all she is striving for, futile. However, I feel this reincorporated personality shard/fragment from the Phoenix, strengthened Jean's maternal connections, especially with Rachel, having been bonded to Rachel. This is also supported I feel by Claremont's UXM 140.5 issue.

[Mercury]

Yours is a fascinating and profound take, Omega_DCD. However, I theorize that, had Sinister not twisted and violated Madelyne's psyche, she would have risen much like the Phoenix clone did: Thinking herself to be Jean Grey. In either case, all of this is so fascinating to ponder!

[Spiderfan001]

They should make a comic just explaining Jean Grey's past until krakoa .Like they did for Clone saga because this is very detailed and confusing(for me atleast)

[Mercury]

They should make a comic just explaining Jean Grey's past until krakoa .Like they did for Clone saga because this is very detailed and confusing(for me atleast)

I would love that, but only if it were done with care and sensitivity. One thing I love about Jean's story is the running themes of displacement and disassociation, which is why I empathize with and feel so much for her as a character.

[Devaishwarya]

But who will write it?
Claremont?
Louise Simonson?
Greg Pak?
or some current "Hot lightning" writer? Who wasn't even born yet when those stories came out, and even if they read those books for context, will still only manage to cobble together a story based off of his/her own limited interpretation of the already muddled "facts".

Personally, I'm for leaving it well enough alone as
1: We've already had too manywriters trying to "explain" what happened.
2: it really isn't that important or relevant to the characters (Jean, Rachel and Maddie) in this current era.
3: Aaron has already made a colossal shit-mountain of the PF from which there is not coming back.

Let frizzle-fowls lie.

[Mercury]

But who will write it?
Claremont?
Louise Simonson?
Greg Pak?
or some current "Hot lightning" writer? Who wasn't even born yet when those stories came out, and even if they read those books for context, will still only manage to cobble together a story based off of his/her own limited interpretation of the already muddled "facts".

Personally, I'm for leaving it well enough alone as
1: We've already had too manywriters trying to "explain" what happened.
2: it really isn't that important or relevant to the characters (Jean, Rachel and Maddie) in this current era.
3: Aaron has already made a colossal shit-mountain of the PF from which there is not coming back.

Let frizzle-fowls lie.

As unlikely as it is to happen and futile to hope for, I would have loved if Hickman had taken a crack at something like this. He is one of the writers I could imagine being able to tie all of the loose ends together while writing a compelling new story.

Also, it's interesting to consider that they have the option of undoing a lot of the confusion by having Moira die and reset reality, though I am in no way suggesting that they do, or would do, this just to streamline Jean's story. However, if they did kill Moira for another reason, Jean's story could benefit from it, too.

[Devaishwarya]

Not really, as those P/DP stories would still be canon as, messed up as they are, they are intrinsically relevant to the X-Mythos (not just Jean) as a whole.

"Resetting" the timeline just makes a new one. It doesn't/wouldn't theoretically change or negate the ones before (especially if your using a central figure like Moira who only affects the circumstances she is directly involved in and on which only she has direct influence). Who's to say events still won't play out as they did?

Sure HiX-Man or even Ewing (though I hardly see either of them wanting to slog through that mess) could make some sense of it but...as with his definitive take on who and what it means to be OL, they're still going to fall way short of any "acceptable" explanation.

At this point...just choose an interpretation and stick with it...you will not be wrong.

[WallStreeter]

I haven't ignored either of those storylines, just like I haven't ignored instances in which Jean claims responsibility for what happened during the Dark Phoenix Saga. However, she makes it a point to say she was connected to those events, not the absolute cause of them.

Many of the post-X-Factor examples you and others have posted are vague allusions, which are not the same as explicitly saying, "Phoenix/Dark Phoenix was Jean Grey." Again, there has been no official retcon of the retcon. Trust me; I've been in the position you are in before, have had it thrown in my face that "That wasn't really Jean," and have not been able to rebut that fact adequately. The only difference is that now I don't care to.

Furthermore, the more I look at it, the more accepting that Jean was Phoenix/Dark Phoenix but not Madelyne up until her "death" in Inferno makes absolutely no sense.

Different people have different takes, but the X-Factor crap of Jeans isn’t Phoenix, but maybe she is, oops she isn’t, but look here she just might be has been done to death and is boring at this point. What really matters how current writers want to proceed. We will get a big clue on that Wednesday in X-Men 4.

Live action and cartoons ignore X-Factor as absurdly complicated explanations like are something most fans just don’t have patience for. It was bad writing and terribly poor editing. Rarely do writers in the past 25 years refer to the X-Factor crap storyline for that reason. Jean refers to herself as having been Phoenix and having gone dark for that time period.

She clearly was Phoenix in the 21st century and was resurrected more than once by the Phoenix.

With that said, you don’t have to share my view ir the views of others. If you like X-Factor, carry on.

[Mercury]

We will get a big clue on that Wednesday in X-Men 4.

I really do hope so!

She clearly was Phoenix in the 21st century and was resurrected more than once by the Phoenix.

On this, we definitely agree. Moreover, not only was she Phoenix, she showed that she could control the Phoenix Force even when enraged and in a highly stressful situation, such as when she discovered Emma and Scott's telepathic affair. She raided Emma's mind but did not hurt her. Also, she later helped save Emma and revealed how being bonded with the Phoenix Force felt:

Jean refers to herself as having been Phoenix and having gone dark for that time period.

I don't think so. (See below.)

With that said, you don’t have to share my view or the views of others. If you like X-Factor, carry on.

Please don't minimize my view as if it is based on a whim and some quirky and disregarded story, because it is not. Even as recently as X-Men: Red, Black Panther assured Jean, "That [i.e., the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix from the Dark Phoenix Saga] wasn't you, Jean," and she didn't deny it or correct him by saying, "It was me." She simply responded with, "I was a part of it, Black Panther," which no one is disputing. After all, "it" did contain a fragment of her psyche.

[Devaishwarya]

In firmly in the X-Factor/Louise Simonson camp.

Yes, she has the DP memories that were reabsorbed along with the phoenix-tainted essence(s), but they're just memories/images of what happened while she was in a cocoon beneath Jamaica Bay and which have been transferred into this new Krako-era body.

And yes, they will still be harrowing because for all intents and purposes at the time, it was (only) a portion of her soul in her recreated body committing those atrocities. (Hence her statement to T'Challa "I was a part of it"...and not, "No, I was It".)

Besides, because she's changed bodies so many times since then, only the memories exist now.

I also consider...if she had never had that interaction with Maddie at the end of Inferno and wasn't forced to reabsorb those memories she would have had no clue far less any emotional connection to what truly took place while she was in the cocoon.

[Marvelboy1974]

Jean Grey in metallic teal armor and charcoal grey bodysuit looks better than a mustard yellow bodysuit underneath, imo. Putting Jean in teal would also break up all the green that Lorna and Rogue are already wearing. Gives me Evolution vibes too!

[Mercury]

Jean Grey in metallic teal armor and charcoal grey bodysuit looks better than a mustard yellow bodysuit underneath, imo. Putting Jean in teal would also break up all the green that Lorna and Rogue are already wearing. Gives me Evolution vibes too!

I love the darker bodysuit. How about dark blue armor and a black bodysuit? (The red in the emblem would look fab against both.)