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  1. #2821
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    It's hard to say what made Jean go to Krakoa because they didn't show us. Maybe Charles asked her to go because he thought if she was there things wouldn't go bad? Maybe it was the promise of a safe place to raise a family? I really don't know.

    But I'm really hoping that spending less time on Krakoa and more time with humans will make her start questioning some things.

    Personally, I think the X-books now are great science fiction but not great X-Men stories. I need some more heroics and idealism. Again, just my opinion. It's just what I enjoy more.

    That being said, I'm not expecting much from this book in terms of overall advancement of the Krakoan tale. But I hope I'm wrong.
    In terms of Jean and Magneto; she's never seen it for him. She's only ever interacted with him in the context of him being a villian that tried to harm her and her friends multiple times as she was never around when he was an X-man. That all changed a few years ago when she came to present day as a teen and he mentored her much like Xavier did. She has those memories and has seen the humanity within him and knows he has the capacity for good and truly does mean well for mutants despite the previous lens she had of him growing up. This new context can account for the change she has in terms of being open to him. Additionally everyone she trusts likely vouches for him. Xavier, Scott, Storm, Kitty, Rogue, Logan, etc... Magneto has more than earned his respect



    In terms of Krakoa, the stuff she was doing in Red is a predecessor to this on a much grander scale. I dont think she would be opposed to the idea. Maybe the implementation but just before HOX, the world went to sh-t when it came to mutant-human relations. Disassembled is enough justification for why any mutant would at least entertain something different
    Last edited by Havok83; 05-04-2021 at 11:06 AM.

  2. #2822
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I'm not trying to upset anyone, I just really don't get it.

    Why are male characters allowed to be in a relationship without being defined by it but a female character isn't?

    I mean, conceptually: why would such a difference exist?

    I think the problem is just bad writing.
    Of course the problem is bad writing. That is the biggest problem.

    Majority of writers are male, so they write from male POV. Jean have to wait for Scott get a atitude so she can follow him

  3. #2823
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I'm not trying to upset anyone, I just really don't get it.

    Why are male characters allowed to be in a relationship without being defined by it but a female character isn't?

    I mean, conceptually: why would such a difference exist?

    I think the problem is just bad writing.
    Storm wasnt defined by her relationship to Forge
    Rogue isnt defined by her relationship to Gambit
    Kitty wasnt defined by her relationship to Colossus
    Betsy wasnt defined by her relationship to Warren

    In all cases the female was written as the lead with the male more reactionary to them and their arcs. So IDA that it isnt allowed in reverse

  4. #2824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Storm wasnt defined by her relationship to Forge
    Rogue isnt defined by her relationship to Gambit
    Kitty wasnt defined by her relationship to Colossus
    Betsy wasnt defined by her relationship to Warren

    In all cases the female was written as the lead with the male more reactionary to them and their arcs. So IDA that it isnt allowed in reverse
    It should be allowed on reverse only with these female characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    In terms of Jean and Magneto; she's never seen it for him. She's only ever interacted with him in the context of him being a villian that tried to harm her and her friends multiple times as she was never around when he was an X-man. That all changed a few years ago when she came to present day as a teen and he mentored her much like Xavier did. She has those memories and has seen the humanity within him and knows he has the capacity for good and truly does mean well for mutants despite the previous lens she had of him growing up. This new context can account for the change she has in terms of being open to him. Additionally everyone she trusts likely vouches for him. Xavier, Scott, Storm, Kitty, Rogue, Logan, etc... Magneto has more than earned his respect



    In terms of Krakoa, the stuff she was doing in Red is a predecessor to this on a much grander scale. I dont think she would be opposed to the idea. Maybe the implementation but just before HOX, the world went to sh-t when it came to mutant-human relations. Disassembled is enough justification for why any mutant would at least entertain something different
    The difference now is that Magneto and charles are deceiving everyone on Krakoa. Magneto returned to be a arrogant mutant supremacist
    Last edited by Rang10; 05-04-2021 at 11:39 AM.

  5. #2825
    Incredible Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    In terms of Jean and Magneto; she's never seen it for him. She's only ever interacted with him in the context of him being a villian that tried to harm her and her friends multiple times as she was never around when he was an X-man. That all changed a few years ago when she came to present day as a teen and he mentored her much like Xavier did. She has those memories and has seen the humanity within him and knows he has the capacity for good and truly does mean well for mutants despite the previous lens she had of him growing up. This new context can account for the change she has in terms of being open to him. Additionally everyone she trusts likely vouches for him. Xavier, Scott, Storm, Kitty, Rogue, Logan, etc... Magneto has more than earned his respect
    If they acknowledge these memories, they have to let adult Jean go full pink power mode as well.

  6. #2826
    Incredible Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Dauterman is a god!! His variant covers gonna sell like water

    It feels powerful and elegant at the same time, perfect translation of her character
    Nooo, is it a variant?!? I wish the digital comics could have the variant covers as well. I love Dauterman’s Jean so much! He gets better and better!

  7. #2827
    Incredible Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Personally, I think the X-books now are great science fiction but not great X-Men stories. I need some more heroics and idealism. Again, just my opinion. It's just what I enjoy more.
    To me the X-books at the moment feel like a cross between Fantastic Four and Avengers. I like several of the books, but most of them don’t feel like X-Men.

    But I really am looking forward to see an X-Men team lead by Jean.

  8. #2828
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    Nooo, is it a variant?!? I wish the digital comics could have the variant covers as well. I love Dauterman’s Jean so much! He gets better and better!
    It's the connectig variant. Probably wont be cheap to get

  9. #2829
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Of course the problem is bad writing. That is the biggest problem.

    Majority of writers are male, so they write from male POV. Jean have to wait for Scott get a atitude so she can follow him

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Storm wasnt defined by her relationship to Forge
    Rogue isnt defined by her relationship to Gambit
    Kitty wasnt defined by her relationship to Colossus
    Betsy wasnt defined by her relationship to Warren


    In all cases the female was written as the lead with the male more reactionary to them and their arcs. So IDA that it isnt allowed in reverse
    Jean is a very complex, nuanced character to write. I'd love to see a female writer writing her again and being the main writer for the character.

    That being said, I think we agree it's not a conceptual problem, right? It's a choice the writers have. The problem then isn't the relationship between Scott and Jean per se.

    Also, does it need to be the reverse? Can't both characters just be allowed to shine?

    Have you guys ever watched a series called Outlander? In there, the main couple love each other passionately and both are full characters on their own, with their strengths and weakenesses. They're portrayed as strong people, both of them drive the plots, and together they face whatever life throws at them. And they're not defined by their relationship, even though it's certainly a big part of their lives.

    In particular about Scott and Jean, though: what does it bother you? Is it the fact that it seems she's always there being supportive? Because, it's not just her that plays that role. He was very supportive of her too.

  10. #2830
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    To me the X-books at the moment feel like a cross between Fantastic Four and Avengers. I like several of the books, but most of them don’t feel like X-Men.

    But I really am looking forward to see an X-Men team lead by Jean. :)
    Yes! Me too! I'm ready for some heroics! :)

    But... I'm trying my best not to be too excited about it, so I don't get too disappointed in case we get another meh book.

  11. #2831
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PowerPlay25 View Post
    ICA.

    It is subjective, but I frequently find stories a little enriched, if there is a touch of romance or relationship insight.

    I would love for Ron Marz to get his hands on Jean Grey.
    Romance and friendships. I miss it so much. The X-men used to be a little soap opera as well as a book with heroic stories. The friendships, the games, the friendly hugs, their outings, the conversations... The characters felt so real. I really miss it. It feels like I'm reading something else when we don't get those scenes.

    But don't mind me. I'm follish and old fashioned. :)
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-04-2021 at 12:01 PM.

  12. #2832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    It's hard to say what made Jean go to Krakoa because they didn't show us. Maybe Charles asked her to go because he thought if she was there things wouldn't go bad? Maybe it was the promise of a safe place to raise a family? I really don't know.

    But I'm really hoping that spending less time on Krakoa and more time with humans will make her start questioning some things.

    Personally, I think the X-books now are great science fiction but not great X-Men stories. I need some more heroics and idealism. Again, just my opinion. It's just what I enjoy more.

    That being said, I'm not expecting much from this book in terms of overall advancement of the Krakoan tale. But I hope I'm wrong.
    You made me remind of Astonishing X-men written by Rosenberg where Xavier deleted Jean, Bobby and Hank memories, he couldn't do the same with Warren.
    Do you think that it is not cannon?

  13. #2833

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I'm not trying to upset anyone, I just really don't get it.

    Why are male characters allowed to be in a relationship without being defined by it but a female character isn't?

    I mean, conceptually: why would such a difference exist?

    I think the problem is just bad writing.
    An element of the problem is when these characters were created. Lorna and Jean were both created in the 60s, when female characters were still generally preferred as more domestic, more defined by their relationships to men around them. Instead of challenging and correcting this, some subsequent writers decided to treat such usage as sacrosanct and like Lorna and Jean must adhere to it, while creating and introducing new women (Storm, Rogue, Shadowcat, etc) that did not. It comes down to a judgment call by those writers that such depictions are somehow essential to those characters' identities, rather than something that should be moved away from as part of modernizing characterization.

    Ironically, at least with Lorna (I don't know Jean's history well enough to speak on it), she had points in those pre-Giant-Size X-Men days where she opposed being seen that way, only for future writers to forget those moments.

    There's been a limited amount of movement on this over the years, e.g. Sue Storm going from Invisible Girl to Invisible Woman or Jane Foster becoming Thor, but I'm a bit hard-pressed to say it's all been consistent. I think most people would still say Sue Storm is mainly "Reed Richards' girlfriend/wife." I think Jane is caught in between being known for her time as Thor, and being known as Thor's love interest.
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  14. #2834
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Jean is a very complex, nuanced character to write. I'd love to see a female writer writing her again and being the main writer for the character.

    That being said, I think we agree it's not a conceptual problem, right? It's a choice the writers have. The problem then isn't the relationship between Scott and Jean per se.

    Also, does it need to be the reverse? Can't both characters just be allowed to shine?

    Have you guys ever watched a series called Outlander? In there, the main couple love each other passionately and both are full characters on their own, with their strengths and weakenesses. They're portrayed as strong people, both of them drive the plots, and together they face whatever life throws at them. And they're not defined by their relationship, even though it's certainly a big part of their lives.

    In particular about Scott and Jean, though: what does it bother you? Is it the fact that it seems she's always there being supportive? Because, it's not just her that plays that role. He was very supportive of her too.
    A good female writer coud be nice like Gail Simone or Kelly Thompson.

    I never watchd outlander, but from what I heard it had some problems. It was from a romance novel written by a woman, so it is usually more balanced.

    I really think the problem is Scott and Jean. she was doing her own things, carving her place in the world, collaboration with the avengers. Then Scott is back and now she is a housewife and waiting for Scott get the atitude to form the x-men.

    I really don't see Scott being supportive of Jean. throught the years we saw a lot of Jean supporting him, while him not doing the same. He yelled because she was phoenix one time
    Last edited by Rang10; 05-04-2021 at 12:26 PM.

  15. #2835
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dam View Post
    You made me remind of Astonishing X-men written by Rosenberg where Xavier deleted Jean, Bobby and Hank memories, he couldn't do the same with Warren.
    Do you think that it is not cannon?
    Mmm... honest answer? I don't know what is cannon anymore, considering the whole Moira plot... It doesn't help that Marvel's timeline is so messy either. :(

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