Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Rang10]

The worse thing you can do when someone is severely injured or has a concussion is to move them without assessing their injury. Jean snatching him with her TK in the middle of battle wouldnt have been smart and done him further damage

They can just ressurrect him anyway. TK is perfect to first aid

[Vishop]

HiCkMaN WrIteS StRoNg JeAn. ShE iS nOt HoUsEwIfE JeAn..... Lmao

Is this still up for debate? I guess I should just avoid this

[Vishop]

They can just ressurrect him anyway. TK is perfect to first aid

It was just the reverse classic fainting effect for Jean.

[Vishop]

Looks like TK to me

More than half them is just an aesthetic that artists impose. Only one of them seems credible.

[Havok83]

They can just ressurrect him anyway. TK is perfect to first aid

That doesnt mean they should just be wreckless with their lives. If that were the case, why even rush to him or bring him to her if she was thinking that that she could just let him die bc of the resurrections? I also dont think Jean wants to accidentally kill Scott

[Harpsikord]

That doesnt mean they should just be wreckless with their lives. If that were the case, why even rush to him or bring him to her if she was thinking that that she could just let him die bc of the resurrections? I also dont think Jean wants to accidentally kill Scott

This was literally the entire idea behind Giant-Sized Storm, too. The X-Men aren't trying to get themselves killed just because they can and will be revived anyway; if they can stop themselves from dying or stop others from dying, they will. I think Jean knows that more than most, wouldn't you say?

HiCkMaN WrIteS StRoNg JeAn. ShE iS nOt HoUsEwIfE JeAn..... Lmao

Is this still up for debate? I guess I should just avoid this

It shouldn't be. Because he doesn't. And hasn't since the first issue of the run. Where Jean was the breadwinner and Scott was the one that was doing more house-spouse things.

But it is. Because she wears gloves? I don't know. Y'all are exhausting.

[johnnysv75]

He wouldn't even have been hit. He'd be under a tk-shield bubble with her. They'd be telepatically connected so they could coordinate, perfectly-timed opening of the TK shield for him to fire his optic blasts.

You know, their version of a fast-ball special awesomeness.

I would have loved that! They are a power couple when written right.

I didnt have a problem with Jean rushing to Scott after he went down bc it usually is done in reverse with him yelling "JEAN!" as she faints

Jean rushing to Scott feels natural. Her looking scared and saying they have to leave doesn’t feel like Jean to me. She would be furious, she probably would have lashed out, using both her telepathy and TK. Fight over.

I felt that Jean shined in that issue. She was taking charge, telling Smasher to weaponize and use them, using her telepathy in really cool ways to weed out the Shi'Ar traitor. But because it wasn't amazing, epic FEATZ where Jean curbstomped everyone present and because there was cute Jott showings or because Jean showed concern for her husband... certain fans hated it.

I am in the Jean curbstomping everyone category. Not because I want feats, but because the Jean I know and love would be more furious than afraid. I love her temper. And yes, she is mature now, but here she feels more insecure than mature to me.
(But yes, I also love feats. )

I get that Hickman wants to focus on Jean’s telepathy. But I wish he could let her fight with it. She only uses it to read minds. Hickman is an incredibly imaginative writer, surely he must be able to come up with lots of interesting ways for Jean to use her telepathy.

And if Hickman does want to focus on her telepathy, why not come up with a way for Jean not to be able to use her TK? Maybe have Xavier turn off her access to it so she could fully explore her omega level telepathy. Or something like that. Just don’t forget about it. Having Jean have temper and use her TK in powerful ways in X-Force and having her be more cautious and hardly ever use her TK in X-Men is just so inconsistent.

[Grinning Soul]

I would have loved that! They are a power couple when written right.

Right? Aren't they supposed to be super elite, crème-de-la-crème in mutantdom? Scott is supposed to be a stretegic genius and she's supposed to be a powerhouse. They should be formidable fighting together.

--

I have no problem with the cute moments between them or her being upset because he got hurt. Really. I love the couple! I want to see more of that! I want to see the mid-fight-mid-tk-flight kisses again! :D

I just wish the writers would get their powers working in synergy, add to the X-Men mythos. They were both original X-Men: fighting together should be as natural as breathing. It would make sense and it would look so hot on panel. :)

[Gray Lensman]

Right? Aren't they supposed to be super elite, crème-de-la-crème in mutantdom? Scott is supposed to be a stretegic genius and she's supposed to be a powerhouse. They should be formidable fighting together.

--

I have no problem with the cute moments between them or her being upset because he got hurt. Really. I love the couple! I want to see more of that! I want to see the mid-fight-mid-tk-flight kisses again!

I just wish the writers would get their powers working in synergy, add to the X-Men mythos. They were both original X-Men: fighting together should be as natural as breathing. It would make sense and it would look so hot on panel.

When written properly Scott and Jean teaming up should be like Marvel's version of World's Finest. I shouldn't have to say which one is which...

[Rang10]

That's true. But supportive wallpaper boyfriends also bore me. I prefer characters to be tridimensional, regardless of their gender.




He knew that. But, you see, this is a reaction that isn't rational. He snapped. It happens to everyone. He immediately apologised.

How many times she snapped at him too? There is a scene during Simonson's run when Jean has an inner dialogue in which she reprimands herself for berating Scott.

They're fictional characters, sure. But they are supposed to emulate real people. Real people have moments like that.

That's a bigger discussion. But sure, if you want to talk about the affair, we can go for it. Let me know.

Im not bored by supportive boyfriends, if i'm reading because of the female character.

Yeah I can see that both hat their angry moments, but only Scott was a hypocrite about it later.

It's not true...

Scott gets a bomb in his chest and after the X-Men remove it, he and Jean go to Alaska for him to recover. Once he's recovered enough, their plan is to sell the house and go back, but Jean loses her telepathy and they decide to stay.

This happens in X-Men #359. They're at the hospital.

Narrator: Anchorage. As the mutant Phoenix, Jean Grey's mind was like a radio receiver, picking up the hidden thoughts of others and broadcasting them inside her head. Since early adolescence, she spent her entire life learning to filter the channels out and make specific rather than general use of all the voices she "heard". But now there is no sound -- now she is completely alone in her own mind. The sensation is... unsettling.

- Jean: There's nothing our there, Scott. It's as if someone has a stranglehold on the psi-plane and I've been shut out of it. I feel damaged -- like I've lost one of my senses.
- Scott: When I was injured battling Bastion, I seem to recall a wise woman telling me -- "our powers may be a part of us, bu they are not the totality of what we are".
- Jean: That woman's not here anymore. Not all of her. Not that part that shared a psionic link with you.
- Scott: The bond between us transcends your mutant powers, Jean. You're my wife. Even if you've left my mind, you could never leave my heart. Jean?

Narrator: His words have always been enough for her before but today's the first time she's had to hear them only with her ears.

So they go back to their house in Alaska.

Narrator: Ptarmigan Creek, Alaska. It's been weeks since Scott Summers last saw his teammate Rogue but while there is a great physical distance between them, their minds are on the same page. Dreams do die, the trick is not to let them take the dreamer with them.

- Jean: I heard that.
- Scott: Jean? Your powers are--
She hugs and interrupts him. She's crying.
- Jean: Sorry. It was a joke. A bad one, but I couldn't help myself. I want back into your thoughts, I already miss the closeness more than I can say. Are you angry with me?
- Scott: Angry?
- Jean: That we have to stay here now while I recover. I know you had big plans for the X-Men, a new dream to shape and guide them in the Professor's absence.
- Scott: I have a lot of dreams Jean, and if you could read my thoughts right now, you'd know that having you safe and sound beside me is always the one foremost in my mind. I'm happy to stay in Alaska for as long as it takes, longer even. I love you.
- Jean: I always knew that before, but now that I don't, say it... Say it often.

They're still in Alaska by the time The Twelve starts and then Scott is possessed at the end of that story and after Jean rescues him he's a total mess. But you see, right before Morrison's run starts, Scott is right there: being supportive of her.

That Scott doesn't exist more, he changed. from Morrison forward he couldn't care less about what Jean was feeling and going through

It's not nostalgia.

For her, it's her life. She died before they could even talk about what was going on with their marriage. She came back to life and they never had the chance to work on their marriage before the Krakoa era started.

Again, if you want to talk about the affair, I'm willing to go for it.

It's only her life if she is in a abusive relationship and thinks she deserves nothing good on her life, and has to keep things like it they were before out of obligation.

He had years of story because she was dead. Now he's only being a father and her husband...

We aren't reading the same books, he is a lot more than just a husband.

and when Jean will get years of solo stories?

Look, I'm not trying to convince you. You have the right to feel however you feel. I'm just trying to point out that when we're upset it tends to blur our vision. I can totally relate.

I really do hope this discussion helps you somehow. But if it's not, please, let me know and I'll shut up, okay?

Well it helped see that Scott may have been a good husband once upon a time.

It shouldn't be. Because he doesn't. And hasn't since the first issue of the run. Where Jean was the breadwinner and Scott was the one that was doing more house-spouse things.

But it is. Because she wears gloves? I don't know. Y'all are exhausting.

She wasn't the breadwinner. everyone saw her cooking and setting the table. While Scott went to a x-men mission

[Grinning Soul]

Im not bored by supportive boyfriends, if i'm reading because of the female character.

Okay. We just have different preferences. That's cool too. :)

Yeah I can see that both hat their angry moments, but only Scott was a hypocrite about it later.

Because of the affair?

That Scott doesn't exist more, he changed. from Morrison forward he couldn't care less about what Jean was feeling and going through

It's true he didn't seem to care much. But that just shows how shattered and depressed he was. Have you ever felt really depressed? It's really hard to escape the bubble of your own suffering. On top of the depression, he was going through a major identity crisis (not in a dissociate way, but major nevertheless). Apocalypse needed to break him so he could take over. He made Scott question everything and, above all, his love for Jean, exactly because that was the thing that gave him strenght to keep fighting.

Look, I'm not excusing the affair. I'm not. I'm just saying it's unfair to judge him as if he had been in his right mind. He was not. He was devastated.

It's only her life if she is in a abusive relationship and thinks she deserves nothing good on her life, and has to keep things like it they were before out of obligation.

Their relationship was never abusive or toxic. I just showed you it was mutually supportive right up to the moment before he was possessed. Morrison's run was an exception and it happens during a time when, again, Scott was not himself. And even then it wasn't abusive. Difficult? Yes. Painful? Hell, yes. But not abusive...

We aren't reading the same books, he is a lot more than just a husband.

What does being a Captain Commander entail? He's not drilling any team. He's not deciding on what should be a mission. He's not in charge of the security of Krakoa...

and when Jean will get years of solo stories?

When Marvel stops writing the Phoenix as a stupid destructive force, I guess? I honestly don't know.

Why would non-Phoenix-non-cosmic Jean want to have a solo book? She's the opposite of a lone-wolf.

Well it helped see that Scott may have been a good husband once upon a time.

And there's no reason for him not to be again. It's been almost 20 years in our time, but not in theirs.

--

I asked because you seemed so upset... You know, to the point you'd prefer a book with Jean would fail. After so many years without her...? It just pains me because I don't want any fan to feel this way. I'm sorry if I'm bothering you. My intention is really to maybe dispel some of the annoyances you may have so you can enjoy the new book or, at least, give it a fair chance, you know?

[Rang10]

Okay. We just have different preferences. That's cool too.

Because of the affair?

Yes, the affair and the Phoenix five.

It's true he didn't seem to care much. But that just shows how shattered and depressed he was. Have you ever felt really depressed? It's really hard to escape the bubble of your own suffering. On top of the depression, he was going through a major identity crisis (not in a dissociate way, but major nevertheless). Apocalypse needed to break him so he could take over. He made Scott question everything and, above all, his love for Jean, exactly because that was the thing that gave him strenght to keep fighting.

Look, I'm not excusing the affair. I'm not. I'm just saying it's unfair to judge him as if he had been in his right mind. He was not. He was devastated.

He wasn't devastated enough to start a affair, he wasn't devastated enough to choose Emma over Jean.
You could even say that affair was just a bump on the road, but he was going to actually leave her. He even said on a future run that Emma was what he needed.

He was having problems, but he was himself. He wa always selfish, just like the time he left Maddie and his so and went to see Jean. That is who he is.

Their relationship was never abusive or toxic. I just showed you it was mutually supportive right up to the moment before he was possessed. Morrison's run was an exception and it happens during a time when, again, Scott was not himself. And even then it wasn't abusive. Difficult? Yes. Painful? Hell, yes. But not abusive...

I think cheating via telepathy extremely abusive. They had a psychic link, it was a special thing.

What does being a Captain Commander entail? He's not drilling any team. He's not deciding on what should be a mission. He's not in charge of the security of Krakoa...

He is in charge of Krakoa's security. He lead mission and command everyone on the missions even magneto

When Marvel stops writing the Phoenix as a stupid destructive force, I guess? I honestly don't know.

Why would non-Phoenix-non-cosmic Jean want to have a solo book? She's the opposite of a lone-wolf.

Solo doesn't mean that she is alone, just that it is her adventures.

And there's no reason for him not to be again. It's been almost 20 years in our time, but not in theirs.

Why giving him a third chance of not being a crap husband? Jean should be free to do her own thing, time to move on

--

I asked because you seemed so upset... You know, to the point you'd prefer a book with Jean would fail. After so many years without her...? It just pains me because I don't want any fan to feel this way. I'm sorry if I'm bothering you. My intention is really to maybe dispel some of the annoyances you may have so you can enjoy the new book or, at least, give it a fair chance, you know?

No problem for me. I like to exchange different opinions, specially on these times.

I just want this era to be be over, I really lost the hope that thing gonna get better for Jean. I don't think any of the writers like her to actually give her a good development that she deserves.
I know it looks bad and that I dont like the character and that i want to see her fail. No I like the charcter that is why I want to see this era ends with a whimper.
Maybe I will be wrong...

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Jean floated those plates so good. And man, when she gives up on missions because they get difficult I just get so amazed at the incredible writing and modern framing of a female character.

And it means so much that her TK powers have been downgraded/removed because her real power is her ability to comfort Cyclops!

Just. So. Good. The best the character has ever been from Day 1 of the run.

[Grinning Soul]

Yes, the affair and the Phoenix five.

I see what you mean. But both things happened after, right? At the moment he had that negative reaction, he wasn't being a hypocrite. This is semantics, though. I admit.

I'll discuss the affair bellow. As for AvX... *argh*.... it was so badly handled. The way I see it - and I'll concede it was barely mentioned on the books - it was like a natural progression for Scott. After all that time doing what he thought he had to do to ensure mutants' survival, he saw an opportunity to undo what Wanda had done. At that point, Scott had been operating a lot on blind faith. He saw Hope manifest the raptor when she healed Nathan. The Phoenix was cearly linked to the mutant messiah. He started to believe that the Phoenix was coming to save mutants. He was desperate enough to accept it.

He wasn't devastated enough to start a affair, he wasn't devastated enough to choose Emma over Jean.

He didn't chose Emma over Jean. Jean had to literally push him to start a relationship with Emma.

He started the affair exactly because he was devastated. The affair was like an escape and it was selfish: he didn't have an affair because he admired Emma, he never mentions any of her qualities, he never expresses having any romantic feelings for her. He only mentions what she makes him feel. It is all about him as it often happens when someone is too depressed to be able to rise above their own pain.

Although it is *certainly* an affair, it's not a physical and it's not an emotional one either. It didn’t have to do with being attracted or enamored to the other person. In many ways, it was like a drug, like an addiction, something you use to escape the misery of your life.

You could even say that affair was just a bump on the road, but he was going to actually leave her. He even said on a future run that Emma was what he needed.

Yes, she was what he needed after he lost Jean. That's not the same as saying Emma was who he loved.

He came to love Emma. Later.

He was having problems, but he was himself. He wa always selfish, just like the time he left Maddie and his so and went to see Jean. That is who he is.

At that point, no one who had truly died in front of his eyes had come back to life. It screwed him up further than his normal operating levels. He's screwed up. I'll never argue against that. I even mentioned that some posts ago.

But it's not like he left Madelyne and ran to Jean's arms and never looked back. He sees Jean and he spends (I think) two weeks just wondering around New York completely out of himself. Then Hank and Bobby find him, convince him to go back with them and start X-Factor. Scott tries to call Madelyne several times. He thinks she left him because that's what she said she'd do. Later, when Jean and Scott go to Sara's house and they hear the threats on her family's lives that were left on her answering machine, Scott wonders if maybe something like that happened to Madelyne and she’s just hiding. He goes to Alaska to investigate. The police finds a redhead body and they believe it's hers.

Only after he thinks Madelyne is really dead, he starts to reconnect romantically with Jean. But then, on the very next day there's a footage of Madelyne and he goes completely crazy again.

The point is: it's another instance in which he's not himself. So it's also not fair to judge him as if he had been.

All you can say is that, when it comes to Jean, Scott can go crazy. Yes, that's true. But that's usually what we see in female characters, right? And normally we get upset with the writers, not the character, right?

[Vishop]

It shouldn't be. Because he doesn't. And hasn't since the first issue of the run. Where Jean was the breadwinner and Scott was the one that was doing more house-spouse things.

But it is. Because she wears gloves? I don't know. Y'all are exhausting.