Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Dam]

But what makes me the most anxious is the treatment of Jean's relationships with the rest of the team, especially the other female members
Her friendship with Lorna has been so mocked over the years (we didn't even get Lorna's reaction to her resurrection, to say the least) and she shared little time with Rogue (apart from a pretty strong moment in X-Treme X-Men that I really liked), I really want these three powerful women to have meaningful interactions with each other
And of course there's Laura who she bonded with in X-Men Red

I also want to read more about this, her friendship with Lorna is supposed to be deep, come one, Jean was even going to be the maid of honor in her wedding with Alex.
Jean has had few moments with Rogue but those have been quite good.

[Dam]

Who hates Jean now? I mean granted there are some people who don't like Jean but that's true of every character but nothing we've seen from this era gives me the impression that Jean is hated now.

Well Emma hates her a lot LoL. Tbh I though they were talking about writers, we have bad luck in that topic, it's really hard to find a writer who enjoys writing Jean.
At least, we are lucky in the designers department

[Grinning Soul]

Emma is his favorite, you can see how well he writes her. She appeared a lot in cable.
So I am like you, no hope at all with Dugann and a well written Jean.

The thing is... Jean wasn't his choice of character for the group, right? She's part of the premise of the book.

When he had the choice of using her very often - in Cable's book - he opted not to. So... for me, that indicates a lack of interest in the character. That doesn't mean he'll go out of his way to portray her in a bad light. That's not what I'm saying.

But I'd be less worried if he had said anywhere that he is a fan of the character as other x-writers said in the past. That's all. That's why I asked you guys.

[Exodus]

I disagree. I don't think anything we've seen from her indicates that "she stuck in the past" if that were true she wouldn't be on Krakoa in the first place. As for the QC Mr. sinister pretty much proposed the ultimatum that if any member of the QC goes to help out in Otherworld they forfeit their seat. Does Jean seem like the type of character to quibble over bureaucracy when her friends and family are in danger? Of course not she would say screw that rip off her nametag and go flying to the rescue. Which highlighted a serious problem with krakoa that Krakoa need at the X-Men they needed a team of mutants that wasn't the whole into the quiet Council that wasn't bogged down by bureaucracy they needed it seemed that was about being superheroes. The creation of an X-Men team is a progressive step forward for krakoa so in that instance I can't agree with it being a step back for her character.

As for X-Force she didn't quit the team because she had a problem with the wet work she quit the team because she had a problem with pieces of leadership and the fact that he pretty much almost committed genocide, lied to and manipulated the team, and then had the nerve to be patronising about it. Once again to the Jean Grey strike you as a character to sacrifice her morals? Of course not. And as we've seen from the recent X-Force issues she's got no problem whatsoever leading the team.

I think being a hero again is very much pandering to the old status quo and is showing to me that Jean does not fit into the new society. I think it would make sense for a group of old X-Men to return to the school concept and being X-Men at one point. Unfortunately, I don't want Jean to be that character after X-Men:Red.

Yes, I agree that Jean is not a character who sacrifices her morals. But one crucial aspect of Krakoa to me is the necessity to rethink and reinterpret what morals for a new mutant nation should supposed to be. You are proving my point here. Jean is only referencing pre-Krakoan morals in her judgement and is not trying to adapt her morals to a new society. Xavier also offered her to get her seat back and she declined. So it is not just Sinister's doing.

I just think that there are more interesting stories to tell than to put Jean in a nostalgic 60s outfit and let her say: "I want to go back to being a hero again". What's next: "Let me start a school in Westchester too". I don't think it is "natural progression" for a new vision of the future to do it all over again. It is going back to what she has been raised to do and be without showing any interesting in TRANSFORMATIVE change.

I personally wished that Jean would bring her concept of a "nation without borders" from "X-Men: Red" back. Nationality is one of the roots of all evil. I think the Krakoan gates make any national framework defined by clear territory also obsolete. I want Jean to be a politician not a hero tbh! it would fit her character to well to be at the council. I think it would also fit her character to try to change Krakoa from within.

Let's open Krakoa for everybody who is disenfranchised in a society!

[Exodus]

Maybe they should go build their own dreams.

I'm afraid it will be just the set up to start the return to the school and old status quo. Krakoa will be the new Genosha run by Magneto.

I'm just still wondering why Hickman is so obsessed with jean's old uniform. And I think my interpretation for it is actually quite spot on () for what Jean seems to represent in the new era: She is the retrograde desire for the heroic superhero past! She is the "fanboy desire" to just let everything stay the same. So within this interpretation her costume will never be able change. :-(

Edit: On a positive note, hence, Jean is also the truest pupil of Xavier's dream. She never stopped to believe in solidarity with humans (she was the one who brought the law of not killing humans to the council). And I think this is true to the character through and through. I wished they would make it more explicit though! Let's her agree then directly with what Krakoa has become. let her be a political opposition within Krakoa.

[Grinning Soul]

I personally wished that Jean would bring her concept of a "nation without borders" from "X-Men: Red" back. Nationality is one of the roots of all evil. I think the Krakoan gates make any national framework defined by clear territory also obsolete. I want Jean to be a politician not a hero tbh I think it would fit her character to try to change Krakoa from within.

That's what I'm hoping. That the hero thing is a phase, a part of journey into figuring things out. You know, taking a step back to acquire a new perspective.

Then I hope she doesn't move back, but moves beyond Krakoa. Not necessarily with a new school or a new mutant nation either. But something different that is makes sense to her and her personal morality, not the morality of a society that is post-death. Not if the price to pay is crucibles and this weird superiority feeling that lurks in every corner.

[Dam]

When he had the choice of using her very often - in Cable's book - he opted not to. So... for me, that indicates a lack of interest in the character. That doesn't mean he'll go out of his way to portray her in a bad light. That's not what I'm saying..

Yes, this is my point exactly. He didn't show any interest in writing her, so in my mind I can't stop thinking that he just doesn't like her. I guess I am biased by all these writers who don't like the character.
But, I will still be buying the new book and see how it goes. Fingers crossed.

[Grinning Soul]

Yes, this is my point exactly. He didn't show any interest in writing her, so in my mind I can't stop thinking that he just doesn't like her. I guess I am biased by all these writers who don't like the character.
But, I will still be buying the new book and see how it goes. Fingers crossed.

Fingers crossed! :)

[Dam]

I'm afraid it will be just the set up to start the return to the school and old status quo. Krakoa will be the new Genosha run by Magneto.

I'm just still wondering why Hickman is so obsessed with jean's old uniform. And I think my interpretation for it is actually quite spot on () for what Jean seems to represent in the new era: She is the retrograde desire for the heroic superhero past! She is the "fanboy desire" to just let everything stay the same. So within this interpretation her costume will never be able change. :-(

Edit: On a positive note, hence, Jean is also the truest pupil of Xavier's dream. She never stopped to believe in solidarity with humans (she was the one who brought the law of not killing humans to the council). And I think this is true to the character through and through. I wished they would make it more explicit though! Let's her agree then directly with what Krakoa has become. let her be a political opposition within Krakoa.

Maybe the best answer is the easiest one. Jean is being manipulate for Xavier to do what he needs to be done. So the old uniform is the proof that this is the "weak and manipulable" Jean. It would be funny that the answer was in front of us all this time

[Grinning Soul]

I wrote this in the "what do you think of hickmans x-men for far, still interested or not?"

--
"I'd like us to come out of this era with the X-Men finally realising that true co-existence (not forced acceptance) is not a beautiful ideology, but the only practical way to go. No mutant nation will ever survive if mutants aren't first actually accepted. And, for me, the most obvious way (although it’s not an easy way) for that to happen would be if both mutants and gene-typical humans realised they are, objectively, part of the same species.

The idea that mutants are an endangered species is conceptually wrong. Gene-typical humans and mutants are so genetically close they can freely reproduce. The offspring of two gene-typical humans can be mutant (Charles Xavier, the O5, etc...). The offspring of two mutants can be gene-typical (Gaydon Creed). And there doesn't seem to be any difficulty in mating between a mutant and a gene-typical human (David Haller, Lorna Dane, etc...).

But the idea of being an “endangered species” has been at the centre of what has motivated the X-Men for so long that few people even question it.(...)"
--

I think Jean is *the* character to question it and to say to people around her: "look, co-existence is the only way to go. Just because we didn't make it, it doesn't mean it was wrong. It only means we approached it in the wrong way".

What do you guys think?

[Exodus]

That's what I'm hoping. That the hero thing is a phase, a part of journey into figuring things out. You know, taking a step back to acquire a new perspective.

Then I hope she doesn't move back, but moves beyond Krakoa. Not necessarily with a new school or a new mutant nation either. But something different that is makes sense to her and her personal morality, not the morality of a society that is post-death. Not if the price to pay is crucibles and this weird superiority feeling that lurks in every corner.

Let's hope so. I agree with you that this weird "feeling of superiority" is something that really has to be challenged directly from the characters in the books. It really is getting disturbing. On the other hand, it is also affectively understandable after years and years of genocide after genocide...mutant life was so directly devalued over and over and over again. maybe feeling superior is the only way to go after being dehumanized by humanity in the first place.

Let's hope that one writer who will be allowed to have a big vision for a book will remember Jean! ;-)

[Exodus]

I wrote this in the "what do you think of hickmans x-men for far, still interested or not?"

--
"I'd like us to come out of this era with the X-Men finally realising that true co-existence (not forced acceptance) is not a beautiful ideology, but the only practical way to go. No mutant nation will ever survive if mutants aren't first actually accepted. And, for me, the most obvious way (although it’s not an easy way) for that to happen would be if both mutants and gene-typical humans realised they are, objectively, part of the same species.

The idea that mutants are an endangered species is conceptually wrong. Gene-typical humans and mutants are so genetically close they can freely reproduce. The offspring of two gene-typical humans can be mutant (Charles Xavier, the O5, etc...). The offspring of two mutants can be gene-typical (Gaydon Creed). And there doesn't seem to be any difficulty in mating between a mutant and a gene-typical human (David Haller, Lorna Dane, etc...).

But the idea of being an “endangered species” has been at the centre of what has motivated the X-Men for so long that few people even question it.(...)"
--

I think Jean is *the* character to question it and to say to people around her: "look, co-existence is the only way to go. Just because we didn't make it, it doesn't mean it was wrong. It only means we approached it in the wrong way".

What do you guys think?

Yes, absolutely. Where have I read that Jean Grey is the only telepath not defined by her powers? maybe someone wrote it here? I think it is totally true. Jean is the most human of the X-Men. I think she should be the one that brings the idea of solidarity with humanity back in a big way challenging the council on its superiority and flawed internalized social darwinism.

[Grinning Soul]

Yes, absolutely. Where have I read that Jean Grey is the only telepath not defined by her powers? maybe someone wrote it here? I think it is totally true. Jean is the most human of the X-Men. I think she should be the one that brings the idea of solidarity with humanity back in a big way challenging the council on its superiority and flawed internalized social darwinism.

Yes, she's a freaking scary omega mutant, the White Phoenix of the Crown, etc... And yet, her biggest power is her loving soul and personality. And that gives her ability to impact the extraordinary people around her. If she'd start questioning those things and all those presumptions under which those characters had been operating while she was dead, they'd listen. They'd stop and think. Her ability to impact Scott, Logan, Ororo and Xavier is unparalled. And I'm sure Kurt would instinctively agree with her. Maybe even Erik, to a point.

I'd love to see that. :)

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Jean is trapped in nostalgia hell. Anything too new regarding Jean freaks out the most important fanbase to the X-Office, nostalgic Scott fans, a club to which the head editor and head writer belong. So, Jean will be as she was in the good ol days before things got complicated:

Main character's love interest with an obviously good powerset that is underplayed because she is not meant to be a full character.

It really does not matter what she was doing in Red because that character does not exist anymore.

What matters is nostalgia and the leader having a not-that-powerful or independent love interest.

[Wiccan]

But I'd be less worried if he had said anywhere that he is a fan of the character as other x-writers said in the past. That's all. That's why I asked you guys.

...Well, thing is, who said that? Jean is sadly not a fan favorite character by most authors. There's Percy. Which cool, he wrote her nicely in the issues of X-Force he had, but she also left the team and overall I wouldn't say his run had much impact on her character. Rosenberg actually did, but then his Jean turned out to be average at best. Taylor likes her now, but afaik he wasn't a big Jean fan before writing X-Men Red, he became one during the process (of writing a book that was editorially mandated to focus on her).