Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[MechaJeanix]

For those of you interested, this interview by Power of X-Men Podcast with Matthew Rosenberg, writer of Phoenix Resurrection, was just published. Jean is the host's favorite character, and he admits "75% of this conversation is going to be about Jean Grey and Phoenix Resurrection." Also, Rosenberg reveals Jean is one of his favorite characters.

I can't dedicate the time to this right now (it's over an hour long), but I am definitely interested in listening to a deep-dive into this story and how it came about. Enjoy!

I am interested in what he has to say. I do feel he got it wrong about Jean’s relationship with the Phoenix. I never saw it as an abusive manipulative relationship. He does love Jean but he preferred her without the Phoenix. The creators are like us fans and have the same debates. Some creators love her as Phoenix and others do not. Some see her as the og Phoenix/Dark Phoenix and again others do not. It’s why the debate will never end.

[Mercury]

I am interested in what he has to say. I do feel he got it wrong about Jean’s relationship with the Phoenix. I never saw it as an abusive manipulative relationship. He does love Jean but he preferred her without the Phoenix. The creators are like us fans and have the same debates. Some creators love her as Phoenix and others do not. Some see her as the og Phoenix/Dark Phoenix and again others do not. It’s why the debate will never end.

I haven't listened yet - I'm about to listen a little - but a mutual started listening as soon as I shared it with them and they were equally frustrated and intrigued. Apparently, Rosenberg goes into the meaning behind the black and red Phoenix costume.

[Omega_DCD]

I am interested in what he has to say. I do feel he got it wrong about Jean’s relationship with the Phoenix. I never saw it as an abusive manipulative relationship. He does love Jean but he preferred her without the Phoenix. The creators are like us fans and have the same debates. Some creators love her as Phoenix and others do not. Some see her as the og Phoenix/Dark Phoenix and again others do not. It’s why the debate will never end.

I agree with you...for me, I was confused by Phoenix Resurrection. I really liked what Matthew wrote to the readers about how much he likes Jean and felt he didn't get closure regarding her death...but the actual content was kind of meandering and mysterious for the sake of being mysterious. I wanted more meaning from the various manifestations Jean was subconsciously creating. And I wanted more actual Jean, not Pleasantville Jean. Lastly, I was disappointed there was absolutely no continuity from the Jean we saw ascend into the WHR at the end of Endsong, to this Jean. Wish Jean remembered something from the flashes she had

I haven't listened yet - I'm about to listen a little - but a mutual started listening as soon as I shared it with them and they were equally frustrated and intrigued. Apparently, Rosenberg goes into the meaning behind the black and red Phoenix costume.

I'd like to hear what he says about that...I'll try to make time to listen, thanks for posting it Mercury

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

We know why Jean is the prime host/avatar. Her omega level telepathic and telekinetic powers, plus strong moral character Madelyne doesn’t have.

As we discussed the Phoenix mostly provided Jean the cosmic awareness that enables her to do the things she always could have done.

As for Jean saying Nightmare was trying to cover his own fear and weakness, this is true of many villains in fiction AND real life.

Is the "prime host" thing true in today's continuity?

[Starchilde]

Minute 36:20 is when he starts to talk about the black and red costume. He says is like an antithesis of the white and gold costume, then, that it represents Jean and Phoenix bonded forever, with Jean, the person, gone (something like that). He mentions that in opposition to the past, where Jean is confused about Phoenix, she knows the Phoenix perfectly now. And the Black and Red costume represents a Jean who knows everything about Phoenix and embraces it in a way that all of her is for the Phoenix and nothing for Jean Grey. I think it's a visual representation of Rosenberg's idea that their relationship became toxic.

[Omega_DCD]

Minute 36:20 is when he starts to talk about the black and red costume. He says is like an antithesis of the white and gold costume, then, that it represents Jean and Phoenix bonded forever, with Jean, the person, gone (something like that). He mentions that in opposition to the past, where Jean is confused about Phoenix, she knows the Phoenix perfectly now. And the Black and Red costume represents a Jean who knows everything about Phoenix and embraces it in a way that all of her is for the Phoenix and nothing for Jean Grey. I think it's a visual representation of Rosenberg's idea that their relationship became toxic.

Interesting, thanks for that...I'm only 13mins in atm. It sounds like what Jean was cautious about at the end of NXM when explaining what she knows about the Phoenix to Logan ("..and if I get too close, it replaces me")

[PyroFN]

Is the "prime host" thing true in today's continuity?

Good question. As far as we know, she is still the most favorite since Jean Grey’s solo. Nothing yet beyond that, as far as I am aware.

[Mercury]

I wrote this in a Jean group chat on Twitter:

…this is why I think the new way forward is to gradually reveal that Jean has cosmic ties OUTSIDE of the Phoenix Force. I'm exhausted by the Phoenix mythos already. It's not coming back and I'm not going to lose my mind hoping and raging for it to come.

Four of the most important moments in Jean's history indicate that she is beyond the Phoenix on some levels, or at least parallel to it - ON HER OWN. You have the "infinite mental powers" description from the 1960s; you have the Destiny panels describing her as “a nexus of probabilities” and “an anomaly”; AND you have time-displaced teenage Jean taking control of the White Hot Room WITHOUT ever having bonded with the Phoenix Force. Like, the material is there and ripe for the picking.

How would I tie it to the Phoenix Force? As I said, I would make the revelation be that the Phoenix Force was attracted to Jean because she has cosmic ties to something greater than even it. I would subvert the whole thing.
Perhaps even make it that the Phoenix Force lost control because it couldn't handle HER power. I mean, I know I'm going out there, but it can be done. The One-Above-All could be the ultimate direct connection.

My point is, there are ways to allow Jean to transcend her Phoenix days without taking anything away from her and actually enhancing her story, powers, and history. Of course, this sort of reveal would happen gradually and delicately. A hint her, a hint there. Like in the latest issue, her defeating a Class 3, i.e., extradimensional, Demon...WITHOUT the Phoenix Force.

I’m tired of Jean being bogged down by the Phoenix Force when it is clear they’re not giving it back to her. Thankfully, we have in-panel indications that point to her having cosmic ties separate and apart from the Phoenix Force. We just need a writer who is creative enough and willing to tie some of the above together. I’ve been working on something but, realistically, I’m not going to be the one to do it.

[Devaishwarya]

Why must she have any "cosmic ties" though? Can't OL be enough?

[Mercury]

Why must she have any "cosmic ties" though? Can't OL be enough?

Of course it’s enough, but I would do something like this A) to give the fans who want her to retain her cosmic ties what they want and B) because what I have in mind would be insanely cool!

[Devaishwarya]

Oh, okies....

[Mercury]

Oh, okies....

😂🤣😂🤣😂

Besides, she just dispelled a Class 3 demon just by threatening him, so….

[Starchilde]

Interesting, thanks for that...I'm only 13mins in atm. It sounds like what Jean was cautious about at the end of NXM when explaining what she knows about the Phoenix to Logan ("..and if I get too close, it replaces me")

You're welcome ! you're right about that, maybe Rosenberg took some inspiration from that moments in New X-MEN.

[Starchilde]

One curious thing, Rosenberg mentions that his original ending had Jean being not really emotionally okay when she came back, and the X-Men being worried about her (I pictured something similar to how Betsy was shown in the mansion after she reconstructed her OG body). He says they had the page done and penciled, and if I'm not mistaken also colored. But he decided to change the ending and take that page out so it would flow better with how Jean was going to be shown in X-Men Red. He said the page still exists. It would be interesting to see that page someday, just for curiosity.

[Omega_DCD]

I wrote this in a Jean group chat on Twitter:



I’m tired of Jean being bogged down by the Phoenix Force when it is clear they’re not giving it back to her. Thankfully, we have in-panel indications that point to her having cosmic ties separate and apart from the Phoenix Force. We just need a writer who is creative enough and willing to tie some of the above together. I’ve been working on something but, realistically, I’m not going to be the one to do it.

That is definitely one of my ideal situations, I posted as such in the “Headcanon” thread

“Headcanon...Jean's mutation goes beyond just telepathy/telekinesis...even beyond the Phoenix Force, and deep down she can link directly to the M'Kraan Crystal/White Hot Room...it's why Jean/Phoenix had such a deep, empathic connection with the Crystal in the original Saga, it's why Destiny goes future-blind in her vicinity, calling Jean a nexus of probabilities, it's why she inadvertently crossed over to the Heroes Reborn reality, it's why she goes beyond any other Phoenix host to being actually merged with it and ascends to the White Phoenix of the Crown...and after the Phoenix Force "killed" teen Jean, she eventually realized where she was (the white hot room) and was able to manipulate the environment she was in.

Other headcanon...Jean does "impossible" things with her psionic powers. On multiple occasions, those brought onto the astral plane by Jean who are not telepaths themselves, have been able to exhibit analogs of their physical powers on the astral plane. She also transferred her telekinesis along with her consciousness to Emma's body...and somehow transferred her telekinesis to Psylocke while absorbing her specific telepathic traits.“

You're welcome ! you're right about that, maybe Rosenberg took some inspiration from that moments in New X-MEN.

And that would help my critique of continuity to were Jean was before dying. The idea of Phoenix and Jean merging, but not in mutual way such as her White Phoenix form, but instead subsuming Jean, and Jean fighting against that, and that being represented in the red and black costume, I wish that was more directly shown. Instead neither Jean, nor Cyclops, nor the other X-Men even question it…and even in the “wardrobe change” scene, Jean could have mentioned losing herself if she goes red&black and dramatically rejecting it and revealing the Marvel Girl look she ends up with and cutting her ties with the Phoenix