Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Rang10]

Call me crazy but I don’t feel an once of responsibility for whatever the hell random strangers at the other end of the planet decide to post on twitter on any particular day of the week. Having said this I have to also say that The picture about “free tights” originally posted by Hickman is just creepy and weird if you ask me, looking at twitter, the people mentioned in your post were reacting to Duggan posting that particular pic once more…… I guess there’s little we can do …… people feel the way they feel.
“Lack of politeness” has plagued the web ever since the dawn of its age, it’s hardly restricted comics fans that come in any size, shape or color just like any other group. As always any person should be judged on their singular actions and merits.

I think that sometimes people use internet as outlet of their anger. 2020 and this year have been realy hard for a bunch of people.
Jean fans have been waiting for years to get something nice with the character, so seems like some just explode their anger over someone trolling them. it was a clear act of provocation from the writer.
yeah we are not responsible for other people posts and this is far away from being only Jean Fans problems. X-men always had a toxic fandom

And even bigger Cyclops fans



There was an Editor in Chief who was on the record as only liking one X-Man. That guy is gone now lol

People who make comics really are just regular humans. The stories don't come in on tablets from talking bushes or anything.

I think they are bigger Emma fans. Duggan doesn't miss a beat to write and worship Emma. Hickman didn't write Emma on his avengers run because editors blocked him.

No a problem be a fan of others characters, but sometimes it makes you think that there is a huge bias going on

Creators are also fans and have bias. Sure some understand it is a bussiness, but some let their fanboysm take over.

[starduck]

I think every fandom has a toxic side, but writers should be more profesional and not get in petty fights woth angry fans

[Rang10]

I think every fandom has a toxic side, but writers should be more profesional and not get in petty fights woth angry fans

True. Specially make the fans even more angry. put the user on a block or silence him, then move on

There isn't one. Duggan was saying he could write about why she should wear it just because someone on Twitter said they could write a ton about why she shouldn't wear it.

It really makes it seem like there isn't a reason.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

All this handwringing. Jean fans are the ones being trolled, not the ones trolling.

In any case, the fans will wait out this weaksauce period just like they did during the near-fifteen years of trolling while the character was dead.

What I'm realizing is that Jean fans shouldn't care what they Hickman, et al, have to say about the character. They have her for a short time in the grand scheme of things. And being that they don't like the character, it makes sense to not give weight to what they say, beyond acknowledging the in-story Ls.

They'll do some whack garbage that another less Jean-antagonistic writer will fix later. It'll probably be the same person that eventually fixes that hater Rosenberg's middle-finger to Jean's stories.

[Omega_DCD]

As for Planet Size X-men I can't wait to see what happens. I am hoping Jean and Quire do more than just link everyone up.. .and I expect that they will. Maybe we will see some long range Psi-broadcasting lol I'm not sure what else they would do in creating a new planet or terraforming a planet.

Yeah I agree just doing a bog standard psi link would be very underwhelming. Jean is also capable of boosting the powers/peak performance of others (X-Men Black Sun) or synergistic links (X-Force with Sage and Black Tom), but with Hope around that would probably be her task.

Simply beaming a play by play back to Earth falls short too since she already psi-linked across a greater distance from Orchis to Earth.

Times like this I wish her TK wasn't arbitrarily "downgraded" , leaving Exodus as the only official Omega telekinetic.

Hoping to be pleasantly surprised by more creativity than Jean has overall been afforded this era

[Grinning Soul]

Me neither but it´s fun to speculate.

It is. But I’m too clueless about that to even attempt to speculate.

Yes but still it´s a copy of the main parent DNA, those variants can be like "the clone ages way too quikly or they develop some kind of sickness, while the twin children are a result of the mix with two parents DNA and some variants between each other. Still I don´t think the writers are seeing this on a biological level, this rule looks to me more like a way to keep Maddie dead and to stop the speculation of the ressurrected people just being clones of the original.

Natural, identical twins come from a single cell and before birth they’re genetically slightly different because of the small mutations that occur independently when each of the individuals cells replicates trillions of times.

This is exactly what happens to clones too, since the first cell has to also replicate trillions of times.

No two individuals are, genetically, a perfect, 100% match. So you can’t really use this as a rule to establish what is a clone and what isn’t.

And that was exactly my point: the definition of a “clone” is not a very easy one to make and that creates problem about that rule. And maybe that’s why they used the term “duplicate” in that data page Havoc83 was kind to share.

So they bassically share the same soul? this would explain why JDW said Jean and Maddie are the same person and so they can´t get her back given she would be a double of her which is banned on Krakoa and that would also explain the law, because as far as we know, Gabby and Laura don´t have the same soul, neither do the Cuckoos.

Well… I don’t know. What is a soul, right?

The Phoenix Force copied something about Jean. Her memories, her essence…. something. We don’t know exactly what it was because different writers have approached it differently. But whatever it was, the Force tried to return it to Jean.

Now, Jean wasn’t lacking part of her soul/essence/whatever-that-was: the Phoenix had copied it. But the original Jean was still whole, unconscious while her body healed the wounds of the radiation at the bottom of Jamaica bay.

Once the copy of Jean’s body died in the Moon, that copy of her essence/soul was supposed to be re-integrated/merged with the original (who was inside the healing cocoon). So it went back to Jean.

But original Jean rejected it because that copy of hers brought the memories of what she had done as Phoenix - killing an entire star system. So that Phoenix fragment, which was carrying that copy, found another Jean - the un-animated body of Madelyne Pryor - and it returned Jean’s soul/essence/memories/whatever-it-was to that body, animating it to life.

So Madelyne isn’t just a clone (a genetic copy) of Jean. She’s more than that.

And in case you’re wondering, yes: that fragment remained with Madelyne the whole time and goes back to Jean, choosing her, saving her from Madelyne as they fight during Inferno. That same fragment remains with Jean until Morrison’s run.

I misunderstood, took that moment when Jean say goodbye to Scott with Maddi´s body but this obviously was not the case, I have not read this story in quite a while.

That was really Jean. :)

She´s an X-man and the daughter of Wolverine and Charles always has been partial to his X-men. So for imo there´s no doubt there´s a body for her.

But I don’t think any body is ready. They are only made when the person dies. Is that the whole point of X-Factor?

Agreed but I still expect this to show the characters reaction to events in other books, that´s how Duggan wrote the Avengers, he addressed the characters past story as well as events happening elsewhere so I think this will keep being a thing with the main X-men team.

I hope it’s the case. I didn’t see much of it in Marauders or Cable, though. So… let’s see how it goes. :)

No, I was talking about the characters new quarters from the X-men #1 trailer

If you look at the background of that picture, you can see a tall, human, building, right? I think those tree pode structures are actually in New York and that’s why fans were speculating.

Well I think that was just the art, sometimes it doesn´t quite matches what the characters are saying.

No. Nathan asks specifically why is everyone smiling. It’s really not the art: they’re actually smiling. :D

Thank you, I will look them over.

No problem. I’ll reply to your message there soon, then I’ll add the theories. :)

Yes some comunities in my country still practice it but they use it mostly for healing or when they have to run in the desert and need to compensate for the lack of water and food on their travel, they are of the oppinion outsiders don´t really know how to use them but it has become quite the tourist attraction so people still come to try them out.

It’s like looking at yoga as a physical activity: you’re willing to experience just a part of the original practise and, honestly, I don’t judge either. If it brings benefits to your life, who am I to say you shouldn’t go for it?

I just think the original ones should be respected.

Yes I remembered that scene and was like I guess Magneto is sharing his tea with Scott now.

A compliant Scott is a strategic genius that will work for you without bringing you any headaches. It actually makes sense.

I’m half-joking here. :)

Right now the books are quite connected so yes, I expect them to address way of X but maybe until the Onslaught situation is solved.

And even after, when Kurt divulges his conclusions, his “Way of X”.

I don´t think Kurt has any problem with Wanda, more like I can see him going all "Stop trying to take over the world and come here and give your children a hug right now" and David and her have a weird link in that them both created something they thougt would make their father happy when it was quite the opposite in both cases.

Yep and yep. :)

[Grinning Soul]

I'd love someone to explain why a mini-skirt was progressive in the 60s and it's regressive in 2020s...

Why someone decided that a dress is not something appropriate for a woman to wear. Seriously, that annoys me: I'm a woman, I wear whatever the heck I want and you don't get to call me prude or slut or modern or regressive. You're entitled to your opinion, but not to pass judgement!

I wish those people would *actually* write why they defend their opinions instead of saying they could. Well, go ahead: tell me why, in 2021, a choice of clothes is *still* an issue for a woman and how that's not sexist in itself.

Now, sexuliazation/objectification is an entirely different discussion. But it has nothing to do with the clothes! [Edit: not when it comes to an adult woman].

Jesus, this is so exhausting!

[starduck]

I'd love someone to explain why a mini-skirt was progressive in the 60s and it's regressive in 2020s...

Why someone decided that a dress is not something appropriate for a woman to wear. Seriously, that annoys me: I'm a woman, I wear whatever the heck I want and you don't get to call me prude or slut or modern or regressive. You're entitled to your opinion, but not to pass judgement!

I wish those people would *actually* write why they defend their opinions instead of saying they could. Well, go ahead: tell me why, in 2021, a choice of clothes is *still* an issue for a woman and how that's not sexist in itself.

Now, sexuliazation/objectification is an entirely different discussion. But it has nothing to do with the clothes! [Edit: not when it comes to an adult woman].

Jesus, this is so exhausting!

Personally, I think the dress looks dated and kind of tacky with the ugly kitchen gloves and giant mask and it's not that old costumes are bad. Jean's phoenix look for example is iconic and would work in any era. Another problem is her codename like why girl? She has died, bonded with a giant fire chicken, been married, etc. she's a woman not a girl

[Lucyinthesky]

It is. But I’m too clueless about that to even attempt to speculate.

Well at least we can look at Hickman´s other stories because in a way he´s making them connected between each other, fist FF4, then Avengers, then New Avengers, Secret Wars and now X-men, he´s creating the Hickman universe inside the MU and it´s interesting to look for clues to know what will happen next

Natural, identical twins come from a single cell and before birth they’re genetically slightly different because of the small mutations that occur independently when each of the individuals cells replicates trillions of times.
This is exactly what happens to clones too, since the first cell has to also replicate trillions of times.
No two individuals are, genetically, a perfect, 100% match. So you canÂ’t really use this as a rule to establish what is a clone and what isnÂ’t.
And that was exactly my point: the definition of a “clone” is not a very easy one to make and that creates problem about that rule. And maybe thatÂ’s why they used the term “duplicate” in that data page Havoc83 was kind to share.

I agree it´s not a perfect match but the differences between variants from a clone, if we take for example Dolly she aged more quicker than other sheeps and developed different diseases, in comics this traslated to clones being shown with shorter life spans as well such is the case with Spider man clone saga and this certainly doesnt happen with identical twin children who have a normal life span.

WellÂ… I dont know. What is a soul, right?
The Phoenix Force copied something about Jean. Her memories, her essence…. something. We don’t know exactly what it was because different writers have approached it differently. But whatever it was, the Force tried to return it to Jean.
Now, Jean wasnÂ’t lacking part of her soul/essence/whatever-that-was: the Phoenix had copied it. But the original Jean was still whole, unconscious while her body healed the wounds of the radiation at the bottom of Jamaica bay.
Once the copy of JeanÂ’s body died in the Moon, that copy of her essence/soul was supposed to be re-integrated/merged with the original (who was inside the healing cocoon). So it went back to Jean.

But original Jean rejected it because that copy of hers brought the memories of what she had done as Phoenix - killing an entire star system. So that Phoenix fragment, which was carrying that copy, found another Jean - the un-animated body of Madelyne Pryor - and it returned JeanÂ’s soul/essence/memories/whatever-it-was to that body, animating it to life.

So Madelyne isn’t just a clone (a genetic copy) of Jean. She’s more than that.

And in case you’re wondering, yes: that fragment remained with Madelyne the whole time and goes back to Jean, choosing her, saving her from Madelyne as they fight during Inferno. That same fragment remains with Jean until Morrison’s run.

Well Claremont called it a soul and this is the word I am using, so imo this looks like Jean´s soul was divided between the Phoenix, Jean and Madelyne so that explains JDW stance that they are the same person and hence can´t bring back Maddie because she´s a duplicate, I don´t quite agree with this point but this seems to be the official explanation.

But I donÂ’t think any body is ready. They are only made when the person dies. Is that the whole point of X-Factor?

They have the Quiet Council, Xavier´s specifically, X-force and maybe other mutants who are part of the goverment ready in case of an emergency while they create others who have been dead for years like Shinobi Shaw, Betsy Brother and the Genoshan mutants, the rest who are alive but die for some reason enter a waiting list, unless they died in battle or in the crucible but all of them have to be officially declared dead before being brought back to avoid duplicates, that´s X-factor work to investigate the cause of death and confirm it.

I hope itÂ’s the case. I didn’t see much of it in Marauders or Cable, though. So… let’s see how it goes.

Marauders addressed King in Black crossover and made a special issue just for that, it also involved X-force at some point so I at the very least we can expect call backs and cameos from other characters.

If you look at the background of that picture, you can see a tall, human, building, right? I think those tree pode structures are actually in New York and thatÂ’s why fans were speculating.

Yes I think they moved to New York but probably still visit their home sometimes, at least that´s what Rogue said she was going to do given Remy is staying on Krakoa.

No. Nathan asks specifically why is everyone smiling. It’s really not the art: they’re actually smiling.

I will look into it, don´t remember that moment.

No problem. I’ll reply to your message there soon, then I’ll add the theories.

ok

It’s like looking at yoga as a physical activity: you’re willing to experience just a part of the original practise and, honestly, I don’t judge either. If it brings benefits to your life, who am I to say you shouldnÂ’t go for it?

I just think the original ones should be respected.

Agreed

A compliant Scott is a strategic genius that will work for you without bringing you any headaches. It actually makes sense.

IÂ’m half-joking here.

Lol you know I could kind of see Magneto giving him his tea in a playful way, after all he promised him he was going to get back at him for calling him old man XD

And even after, when Kurt divulges his conclusions, his “Way of X”.

Exactly he´s part of the council so he will bring his discovery to them and also to the rest of Krakoa imo.

Yep and yep.

In an alternative reality Kurt and Wanda marry and have daughter, that´s also why I think he quite likes Wanda

[Wiccan]

I'd love someone to explain why a mini-skirt was progressive in the 60s and it's regressive in 2020s...

Why someone decided that a dress is not something appropriate for a woman to wear. Seriously, that annoys me: I'm a woman, I wear whatever the heck I want and you don't get to call me prude or slut or modern or regressive. You're entitled to your opinion, but not to pass judgement!

I wish those people would *actually* write why they defend their opinions instead of saying they could. Well, go ahead: tell me why, in 2021, a choice of clothes is *still* an issue for a woman and how that's not sexist in itself.

Now, sexuliazation/objectification is an entirely different discussion. But it has nothing to do with the clothes! [Edit: not when it comes to an adult woman].

Jesus, this is so exhausting!

The skirt itself isn't the problem, at least imo. It's overall an outdated design from the 60's. The dress itself is literally just a dress with a belt. Lorna is wearing a dress too, and no one is complaining about that, because it looks cool and modern.

I do think however that there are some reasons why it comes off as lowkey sexist:

1) It's an outfit that she wore as a teenager. It feels slightly patronizing to put her back on it as woman who's like at least in her late 20's.

2) It's also from the 60's. A time where women didn't have the best writing in comics, including Jean herself at the exact time she wore that costume. Creating her new identity as Phoenix with a new look was a big progress for Jean. And even after the retcon, she was still portrayed better and with a more "proper" suit in X-Factor.

3) "Free thighs for a free nation"... Really? It does seem like the main thing for straight male writers that make them like the outfit is that her thighs are out.

Also... I'm pretty sure that things that were progressive in the 60's aren't any more, like, in general??? What world would it be if there was no change in 6 decades...

[Grinning Soul]

Personally, I think the dress looks dated and kind of tacky with the ugly kitchen gloves and giant mask and it's not that old costumes are bad. Jean's phoenix look for example is iconic and would work in any era. Another problem is her codename like why girl? She has died, bonded with a giant fire chicken, been married, etc. she's a woman not a girl

All right, but those are aesthetics considerations and I have some issues about it too. But that's not why people are being obnoxious on twitter.

As for the "girl", like I said a couple of times here, it also annoys me more than the uniform. I'd love Jean to call herself Marvel Woman. But I don't make a big issue out of it either.

[Lucyinthesky]

I don´t like her uniform because it looks dated and is not practical for battle but I would like if they did a modern version for it and I also dislike Jean being called marvel girl, she´s a grown woman who´s one of the pilars of the X-men and Krakoa, I understand they are using their code names as their mutant names but Jean has been known by her real name longer than when was called marvel girl so she either needs to get a new code name that makes more sense for her like phoenix or she just needs to keep using her name.

That said I don´t think creators will change their mind if fans argue with them at twitter, they will get annoyed and less willing to listen to their argument we may have a better chance showing art of her on different uniforms and asking on interviews if they plan to have her appear on different clothes or if she will get a modern version of her current uniform, I liked to see her 90´s clothes, the modern art really did wonders for it.

[Grinning Soul]

The skirt itself isn't the problem, at least imo. It's overall an outdated design from the 60's. The dress itself is literally just a dress with a belt. Lorna is wearing a dress too, and no one is complaining about that, because it looks cool and modern.

I do think however that there are some reasons why it comes off as lowkey sexist:

1) It's an outfit that she wore as a teenager. It feels slightly patronizing to put her back on it as woman who's like at least in her late 20's.

2) It's also from the 60's. A time where women didn't have the best writing in comics, including Jean herself at the exact time she wore that costume. Creating her new identity as Phoenix with a new look was a big progress for Jean. And even after the retcon, she was still portrayed better and with a more "proper" suit in X-Factor.

3) "Free thighs for a free nation"... Really? It does seem like the main thing for straight male writers that make them like the outfit is that her thighs are out.

Also... I'm pretty sure that things that were progressive in the 60's aren't any more, like, in general??? What world would it be if there was no change in 6 decades...

Fair enough. Here's what I think about each of the topics.

1) It's just a dress. Would it be patronising if she wore a mini-skirt dress for a date? Because she wore many as an adult woman and it was never a problem. And if it is a problem, why can't an adult woman choose to wear such a dress without being judged by it? Again: 2021!
2) Again: "proper" suit brings a sexist connotation in itself. Why are things "proper" when it comes to women's attires? Would we be discussing this at all if a male character wore a roman-style mini skirt as an uniform? I don't think so.
3) So what if male writers are silly about it? Why does a female character have to enjoy less freedom than a male character when it comes to their clothes because stupid men behave like stupid horny teenagers? Should women cover their bodies so men behave respectfully or should we demand men to behave respectfully instead?

Sure, lots of things that was progressive in the 60s aren't considered as such nowadays. But, generally speaking, that are not considered as regressive either, they just became the norm. And, specifically speaking, how did having the freedom to wear a mini-skirt become regressive in 2021? I still don't see it.

[Grinning Soul]

Well at least we can look at Hickman´s other stories because in a way he´s making them connected between each other, fist FF4, then Avengers, then New Avengers, Secret Wars and now X-men, he´s creating the Hickman universe inside the MU and it´s interesting to look for clues to know what will happen next

Sure. But I still can’t hazard a guess. :D

I agree it´s not a perfect match but the differences between variants from a clone, if we take for example Dolly she aged more quicker than other sheeps and developed different diseases, in comics this traslated to clones being shown with shorter life spans as well such is the case with Spider man clone saga and this certainly doesnt happen with identical twin children who have a normal life span.

Yep. It’s part of one of my theories too. I just wrote about it in the other thread. :)

Well Claremont called it a soul and this is the word I am using, so imo this looks like Jean´s soul was divided between the Phoenix, Jean and Madelyne so that explains JDW stance that they are the same person and hence can´t bring back Maddie because she´s a duplicate, I don´t quite agree with this point but this seems to be the official explanation.

Madelyne is certainly a different case. She’s not a clone like Strife is.

They have the Quiet Council, Xavier´s specifically, X-force and maybe other mutants who are part of the goverment ready in case of an emergency while they create others who have been dead for years like Shinobi Shaw, Betsy Brother and the Genoshan mutants, the rest who are alive but die for some reason enter a waiting list, unless they died in battle or in the crucible but all of them have to be officially declared dead before being brought back to avoid duplicates, that´s X-factor work to investigate the cause of death and confirm it.

Not really. Jean was part of the X-Force, but when Logan killed her in Wolverine, a new body of hers was created to bring her back. There’s even a scene when he takes flowers to her egg and Scott is standing there, looking rightfully upset and walking away as Logan apologises for having killed her.

Marauders addressed King in Black crossover and made a special issue just for that, it also involved X-force at some point so I at the very least we can expect call backs and cameos from other characters.

Yeah. Those reference/cameos have been appearing consistently in most X-books.

Yes I think they moved to New York but probably still visit their home sometimes, at least that´s what Rogue said she was going to do given Remy is staying on Krakoa.

Yeah, considering those portals, there is no reason for them not to do it.

I will look into it, don´t remember that moment.)

I remember the art was by Noto, so it either happens in Cable or the issue he drew for X-Men, during the X of Swords event. I have some stuff to do now, but look for it later.

EDIT: Found it: Cable #5.

Lol you know I could kind of see Magneto giving him his tea in a playful way, after all he promised him he was going to get back at him for calling him old man XD)

Hey, Mags: you’re an old man!

Can I have that tea now, please? :D

Exactly he´s part of the council so he will bring his discovery to them and also to the rest of Krakoa imo.

That’s what I expect too… It’s the whole point of the book, right?

In an alternative reality Kurt and Wanda marry and have daughter, that´s also why I think he quite likes Wanda :)

He has a sweet, loving soul. He likes most people. :)

[Wiccan]

Fair enough. Here's what I think about each of the topics.

1) It's just a dress. Would it be patronising if she wore a mini-skirt dress for a date? Because she wore many as an adult woman and it was never a problem. And if it is a problem, why can't an adult woman choose to wear such a dress without being judged by it? Again: 2021!
2) Again: "proper" suit brings a sexist connotation in itself. Why are things "proper" when it comes to women's attires? Would we be discussing this at all if a male character wore a roman-style mini skirt as an uniform? I don't think so.
3) So what if male writers are silly about it? Why does a female character have to enjoy less freedom than a male character when it comes to their clothes because stupid men behave like stupid horny teenagers? Should women cover their bodies so men behave respectfully or should we demand men to behave respectfully instead?

Sure, lots of things that was progressive in the 60s aren't considered as such nowadays. But, generally speaking, that are not considered as regressive either, they just became the norm. And, specifically speaking, how did having the freedom to wear a mini-skirt become regressive in 2021? I still don't see it.

1) We're not talking about her everyday looks here. We're talking about a costume that she's fighting on missions with. It'd be one thing if it was only on her scenes at the Summers house and stuff, but it's not.

2) I say proper in regards to being a proper SUPERHERO UNIFORM. If it wasn't for the mask and gloves, the dress/belt/boots would be casual civilian clothes.

3) What are you even saying... You're trying to say that I'M the sexist one because I don't like that male writers are, according to your own words, behaving like stupid horny teenagers? LOL. I just said that I don't have a problem with female heroes wearing dresses. I have a problem with the design, how dated it is, and how the writers are acting about it.

Jean is a fictional character. What she wears is something decided by writers/artists/editors. Any reasons as to why she's wearing them are made-up by said people (and we don't even get said reasons explained in the actual comics to say it's really a significant in-universe decision). I'm not talking about women's rights to wear whatever they want. Of course women wearing skirts isn't regressive. A fictional character wearing a costume from the 60's that looks dated and she obviously grew out of these days is regressive. In my opinion, at least.