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  1. #4576
    Fantastic Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Since the very early issues, Scott was protective of her. Being protective is in his personality. It's not a matter of not trusting or trying to subjugate her. It's his way of caring and loving.

    Things became an actual problem for him during the time she was merged with the Phoenix. We tend to forget but, at some point, they formed their psychic rapport. He lived *her* struggle and *her* fear on top of his own. He felt her death!

    Imagine it was must have been like for that poor man: one second she's there, a comforting presence in his mind (I'll repost some panels I shared on the couple's appreciation thread), the next second she's not.



    Imagine the silence. The void. The despair.

    She was not just his best friend. He loved her deeply. They were going to get married.

    One doesn't get over it easily. It was a process for him and it there was still a tender spot when it came to the Phoenix. There will most likely always be, especially now that he knows first hand how it feels to deal with all that power.

    But like I said, that period of the 90s was great for them. They stability in their relationship and the fact they have such a positive influence of modulating the other's more extreme tendencies, allowed both of to become stronger, calmer, more confident. It felt like a natural progression for them, the sign of emotional maturity.

    And yes, the way he behaves towards her this entire issue is amazing.
    I hear you, but there is protective and then there is borderline infantilization. Jean outright tells Scott not to baby her

    Screenshot_20210618-123655_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

    Screenshot_20210618-123713_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

    Storm has called him out on it, so has Beast. Whether internal thought bubbles or direct speech of him saying stuff like "Are you sure? The strain might be too much" and variations thereof, it's been a consistent trend from him.

    It's why his confidence in Jean while Banshee is practically freaking out in X-Men #28 stood out to me....even if he still felt the need earlier to be all "OMG Jean what's gotten into you, questioning THE PROFESSOR ™️ like that!"

  2. #4577
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Agree, They never recognize all the times Jean sacrificed herself for the mutants. Meanwhile Emma got tortured and delivered to villains a anti-mutant vaccine.
    but onlly jean receives flack of a weaker TP and a much younger generation than her.
    That is like Morata mocking Messi; A college footbal player mocking Tom Brady.
    These examples are chef’s kiss
    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  3. #4578
    ᱬ Master Of Chaos ᱬ Cruelrain's Avatar
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    I don't think there would be as much discussion if they had just tried to modernize her Marvel Girl costume and maybe use new colors intead of the vibrant green/yellow



    i actually like how it looks in this Adam Hughes art

  4. #4579

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I think most Jean Grey fans are quite generous (or better said not selfish), particularly when it comes to other female characters. We want Lorna, Ororo, Rogue etc... to be their amazing powerhouse selves.

    I think most of Jean's fans wouldn't want Lorna to be treated poorly. And if we're to judge by this forum, it's quite the opposite: we're excited that Lorna is in the team too and we're hoping she gets to be awesome. Seriously. I never read anything negative about her here. Only love.

    And if Duggan somehow allows Lorna to be mind-controlled again (especially when there's an Omega level telepath around), I'll go Dark Phoenix and we go riot, deal? For both Lorna and Jean (for letting it happen on her watch, in this Krakoan era, again).
    Honestly, when I wrote all of that I was thinking about Secret Wars House of M. :P Lorna was depicted great in that mini, but I felt Pietro was treated poorly there. IMO he could have just as easily been written as "betraying" Magneto to Namor, only to find out as the story unfolded that he was actually setting Namor up so Magneto could defeat him and appear justified in doing so. Instead Pietro was framed as Magneto's scheming power-hungry son that's scared of Lorna and of feeling consequences to his actions. I tend to recommend that mini for Lorna, but emphasize it's not fair to Pietro. So when I think of possible relationships, I try to keep in mind that it needs to be fair to both characters, not stilted for one to benefit at the other's expense. I just felt it was worth me describing that POV I have since I was already talking about relationships. I try to be very conscious of how the goal should be for better in the future all around.

    I'm guarded but hopeful for the new run. What I've seen so far looks good.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress. Avatar by Ty Romsa (not commissioned by me).

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  5. #4580
    Fantastic Member Conor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post
    I don't think there would be as much discussion if they had just tried to modernize her Marvel Girl costume and maybe use new colors intead of the vibrant green/yellow



    i actually like how it looks in this Adam Hughes art
    That’s funny that you mention about a new colour palette for the MG outfit because I was thinking the other day instead of the green, maybe a crimson red would be nice, a red similar to her Revolution costume.

  6. #4581
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post
    I don't think there would be as much discussion if they had just tried to modernize her Marvel Girl costume and maybe use new colors intead of the vibrant green/yellow



    i actually like how it looks in this Adam Hughes art
    The mask here makes me think of She-Ra's mask from the 80s... not the cartoon but the version from the toys and the mini-comics (and maybe some of the Golden Books). It looks interesting.

  7. #4582
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    I hear you, but there is protective and then there is borderline infantilization. Jean outright tells Scott not to baby her

    Screenshot_20210618-123655_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

    Screenshot_20210618-123713_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

    Storm has called him out on it, so has Beast. Whether internal thought bubbles or direct speech of him saying stuff like "Are you sure? The strain might be too much" and variations thereof, it's been a consistent trend from him.

    It's why his confidence in Jean while Banshee is practically freaking out in X-Men #28 stood out to me....even if he still felt the need earlier to be all "OMG Jean what's gotten into you, questioning THE PROFESSOR ™️ like that!"
    True, but Storm has asked Jean the same thing before, and what's worse, this was when Jean was Phoenix. Storm asked Jean Phoenix if she needed any help carrying the 5 X-Men Telekinetically. This was during Proteus story , I believe. So even after seeing all Jean could do, let alone Jean as Phoenix, Storm still asked Jean if she needed help lifting 5 people.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  8. #4583
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post
    I don't think there would be as much discussion if they had just tried to modernize her Marvel Girl costume and maybe use new colors intead of the vibrant green/yellow



    i actually like how it looks in this Adam Hughes art
    This is nice. It says, "Marvel Woman".
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  9. #4584
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    I hear you, but there is protective and then there is borderline infantilization. Jean outright tells Scott not to baby her

    Storm has called him out on it, so has Beast. Whether internal thought bubbles or direct speech of him saying stuff like "Are you sure? The strain might be too much" and variations thereof, it's been a consistent trend from him.

    It's why his confidence in Jean while Banshee is practically freaking out in X-Men #28 stood out to me....even if he still felt the need earlier to be all "OMG Jean what's gotten into you, questioning THE PROFESSOR ™️ like that!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    True, but Storm has asked Jean the same thing before, and what's worse, this was when Jean was Phoenix. Storm asked Jean Phoenix if she needed any help carrying the 5 X-Men Telekinetically. This was during Proteus story , I believe. So even after seeing all Jean could do, let alone Jean as Phoenix, Storm still asked Jean if she needed help lifting 5 people.
    That's the thing, guys: both Scott and Ororo love Jean and they worry about her because they know Jean is as heroic as it gets. They know she will push her limits and risk her own life in order to help/protect people.

    If we look hard enough, most of her friends have expressed some concern for her at some point or another. Even dear Kurt in X-Men: Red, after she showed him her plan.

    We have more instances of Scott doing this because his personality is the personality of a worrier, that's what he does (not to mention shared panel time). He's also the archetype of the protector. So when you add that to the trauma of losing her (or thinking he lost her) multiple times and how much he loves her, things get difficult for him to handle. You should remember: he's not the most skilful person at dealing with this own emotions either.

    So, like I said, it was a process for him. One that, in my opinion, they rightfully decided he should have overcome to an extent, once their relationship was stable and they were working their positive influences on each other. People learn, mature, become better. That issue was a good indication that he was on the right path. It’s reason to be happy. :)

    If there's one thing good thing we saw about their relationship in this Krakoan era, is that he seems to be taking the initiative to invite her to co-lead (as seen in X of Swords and the X-Men election). Hopefully, Duggan will keep up with it on the new book, which would make total sense since it getting the X-Men team active again was a plan they made together. :)

  10. #4585
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Honestly, when I wrote all of that I was thinking about Secret Wars House of M. :P Lorna was depicted great in that mini, but I felt Pietro was treated poorly there. IMO he could have just as easily been written as "betraying" Magneto to Namor, only to find out as the story unfolded that he was actually setting Namor up so Magneto could defeat him and appear justified in doing so. Instead Pietro was framed as Magneto's scheming power-hungry son that's scared of Lorna and of feeling consequences to his actions. I tend to recommend that mini for Lorna, but emphasize it's not fair to Pietro. So when I think of possible relationships, I try to keep in mind that it needs to be fair to both characters, not stilted for one to benefit at the other's expense. I just felt it was worth me describing that POV I have since I was already talking about relationships. I try to be very conscious of how the goal should be for better in the future all around.

    I'm guarded but hopeful for the new run. What I've seen so far looks good.
    I totally get it. I don't like it either when a character has to suffer (either directly or by bad characterization or downright ridicule) because of another character.

    For instance, writers who like Jean and Logan together love to do that to Scott, which generates hate towards Jean! As if Jean herself isn't being treated poorly because of their desire to write fan-fiction in the actual comics. Classic X-Men #27 is the perfect example of it, at its worst. And that's not mention how many times Jean was indirectly or directly mocked/mischaracterised, in-story, to make Scott and Emma look better as a couple. It's cheap and petty, really. Not to mention unnecessary.

    So, really: I *get* what you mean.

    And I really hope we don't get anything remotely like that in the new book. I don't think we will, though.

    That being said, I will give the book a fair chance, but I'm also guarded, as you put it.

  11. #4586
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I totally get it. I don't like it either when a character has to suffer (either directly or by bad characterization or downright ridicule) because of another character.

    For instance, writers who like Jean and Logan together love to do that to Scott, which generates hate towards Jean! As if Jean herself isn't being treated poorly because of their desire to write fan-fiction in the actual comics. Classic X-Men #27 is the perfect example of it, at its worst. And that's not mention how many times Jean was indirectly or directly mocked/mischaracterised, in-story, to make Scott and Emma look better as a couple. It's cheap and petty, really. Not to mention unnecessary.

    So, really: I *get* what you mean.

    And I really hope we don't get anything remotely like that in the new book. I don't think we will, though.

    That being said, I will give the book a fair chance, but I'm also guarded, as you put it.
    It is no secret that the Morrison era is by far my favorite X-men run. I loved Jean, Scott, Beast, and Emma in that series. I even came to like Scott and Emma together but I never liked the jabs toward Jean from any of the characters post Morrison era. I hated that. During Morrison's run my favs were Jean, Scott, and Beast. But when Scott became more extreme (I recall at the time fans on the internet compared him to Dick Cheney but now most of the progressive/liberal/radical fans are big fans of the more extreme Scott and see him as some sort of progressive revolutionary) I started not feeling Scott or Emma. By the Phoenix 5 nonsense I had tapped out of X-men only to come back later during the O5 Bendis stuff (and I started buying regularly during the Teen Jean solo).

    Long story short, yes I loved Scott and Emma but I hated all the jabs at Jean and how their love was just a teen love story, that Jean was no good for him, that Jean held him back, etc. It was so gross.

    Now my favs are definitely Jean, Storm, and Iceman. I still love Scott and Emma though when written well.

    I prefer Scott and Jean to be apart but I can stomach when they are together as long as they both get to be complete characters. Sometimes the women characters do not fair well with being in a pairing imo.

    My hope is that Duggan will write scenes of them being together that is not cringe but they still can do stuff on their own. I also do not want to see a lot of JEAN!!!! and SCOTT!!! scenes lol

  12. #4587
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    It is no secret that the Morrison era is by far my favorite X-men run. I loved Jean, Scott, Beast, and Emma in that series. I even came to like Scott and Emma together but I never liked the jabs toward Jean from any of the characters post Morrison era. I hated that. During Morrison's run my favs were Jean, Scott, and Beast. But when Scott became more extreme (I recall at the time fans on the internet compared him to Dick Cheney but now most of the progressive/liberal/radical fans are big fans of the more extreme Scott and see him as some sort of progressive revolutionary) I started not feeling Scott or Emma. By the Phoenix 5 nonsense I had tapped out of X-men only to come back later during the O5 Bendis stuff (and I started buying regularly during the Teen Jean solo).

    Long story short, yes I loved Scott and Emma but I hated all the jabs at Jean and how their love was just a teen love story, that Jean was no good for him, that Jean held him back, etc. It was so gross.

    Now my favs are definitely Jean, Storm, and Iceman. I still love Scott and Emma though when written well.

    I prefer Scott and Jean to be apart but I can stomach when they are together as long as they both get to be complete characters. Sometimes the women characters do not fair well with being in a pairing imo.

    My hope is that Duggan will write scenes of them being together that is not cringe but they still can do stuff on their own. I also do not want to see a lot of JEAN!!!! and SCOTT!!! scenes lol
    So you like Emma and Scott even with them Taking jabs on Jean? That is really having great willpower, because i still can't stomach these chracters to these days.

    Never read any romance with Duggan, He seems to like more disfunctional relationships like the one he wronte on Deadpool.

    From Duggan and JDW interview it is clear they only see her as Scott extension, they only talk about his story and not about Jean story.
    So i have no hopes of good story for Jean

  13. #4588
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    So you like Emma and Scott even with them Taking jabs on Jean? That is really having great willpower, because i still can't stomach these chracters to these days.

    Never read any romance with Duggan, He seems to like more disfunctional relationships like the one he wronte on Deadpool.

    From Duggan and JDW interview it is clear they only see her as Scott extension, they only talk about his story and not about Jean story.
    So i have no hopes of good story for Jean
    I liked Scott and Emma as written by Morrison yes. Morrison made Scott a little less uptight and their Emma was very fun... the best version of her character imo. Their version of Jean is also my favorite. I even liked Scott and Emma under Whedon though I felt Whedon redid Morrison's story with Scott - he started uptight and became less so through the run. Whedon's Emma was too cold and "ice queen" for my tastes.

    It was the Brubaker/Fraction run that really divided me on Scott and Emma and then of course the Bendis era. At that point I had enough.

  14. #4589
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    That's the thing, guys: both Scott and Ororo love Jean and they worry about her because they know Jean is as heroic as it gets. They know she will push her limits and risk her own life in order to help/protect people.

    If we look hard enough, most of her friends have expressed some concern for her at some point or another. Even dear Kurt in X-Men: Red, after she showed him her plan.
    It seems like they could be asking Jean questions because they see her as weak, a weak mutant. I do not see them doing this with others. Maybe if they did this the first 5 issues or so (when no one knew Jean's true strength), that would be one thing. But at her most powerful as Phoenix? That's just daft. Also, even today, it makes no sense. I really do not like when they question what she can do. Just like in X-Men Dark Phoenix movies, Jean says she can hold the shuttle together (Xavier believes in her) and it took Scott saying, "She said she can do it" to remind everyone that Jean is not just a human, but a super powerful mutant---just like them.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  15. #4590
    Fantastic Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    True, but Storm has asked Jean the same thing before, and what's worse, this was when Jean was Phoenix. Storm asked Jean Phoenix if she needed any help carrying the 5 X-Men Telekinetically. This was during Proteus story , I believe. So even after seeing all Jean could do, let alone Jean as Phoenix, Storm still asked Jean if she needed help lifting 5 people.
    In Storm's case, the context is that it immediately follows Jean reeling from the psychic backlash of someone's death scream as they were murdered by Proteus

    Screenshot_20210618-151617_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

    Screenshot_20210618-151645_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

    And to me I find it more neutral to simply offer help(especially after an attack) as opposed to doubting one's capabilities (for example...Storm: "Jean, you shouldn't strain yourself...let me transport our non-flying X-Men instead")

    Screenshot_20210618-152454_Comics.jpg
    The fact that he does this not long after Jean explicitly tells him that she's tired of suppressing her powers due to the fears of others, and wants to start exploring all she is capable of, just comes across as patronizing.

    And going back to the rapport thing, how must it feel for Jean, coming from someone who's supposed to know her the most, inside and out, and gone through so much together, to constantly feel his doubt seeping through into your mind, regardless of better intentions.

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