Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Havok83]

Jean is so close to Kurt but it looks like she won't be making an appearance on Way of X

She was technically in today's issue in a blink and you'll miss her cameo

[Brian B]

Err, having a character appear isn't the same having plans for them, at least not in the way people usually mean. When you say having plans for a character, you're usually talking about an idea of a story for them, a way for character development, a direction for themm to go, a place you want them to be when you're done. So far Hickman hasn't really done character work with Jean. X-Force isn't his credit at all, it's Ben's book and picked her for the roster. Planet-Size X-Men was Duggan's idea. Pretty much everyone is at the Gala. And she wasn't really on Powers of X.

Hickman can be given credit for House of X, her couple of appearances on the current/previous X-Men title, X of SWORDS and her being on the new X-Men team (though the actual writing for that won't be done by him).

There is nothing happening in the X books that is not coordinated and basically approved by Hickman. But if we want to give Duggan credit, okay, that’s fine. Either way, there’s roles and plans for Jean the character.

Hickman put her on the Quiet Council. That’s a plan, a role for the character.

Before that, she helped take out Orchis, temporarily. She played a role and was part of those plans.

Then he took her off to go form X-Men. That’s a role and a plan, too. Reforming the X-Men is a pretty big role, whether she’s “captain” or not, it was at her behest, her lead. That’s a big deal.

She helped win X of Swords, thus bringing “back” Arakko and its Apocalyptic residents. Again, she was in those plans and had a role.

Now, they’re putting her on the cover of Planet-Size X-Men. Again, that’s a role and a plan, too. Indeed, it’s even a marketing plan. They think Marvel Girl on the cover is going to sell more books.

They’ve given her 2 guys in the HiXmen. Again, it’s a role and a plan.

They’ve made her a “mother” to Nate, and even to Hope and Rachel, sort of. Again, she’s in Hickman’s plans, playing a role.

It maybe that people don’t like what Hickman and Duggan have done to her. I feel she seems like the strongest she’s ever been, characterization wise. Others differ, obviously.

But just because some may not like it does not invalidate that they’ve got plans and a role for Jean. They do have a role and plans for Jean. A character doesn’t need to be the most important thing in the story for the character to still have a role. And Jean’s role is still awfully big. She may not be the professor, Moira or Magento, but she’s up there.

[Wiccan]

There is nothing happening in the X books that is not coordinated and basically approved by Hickman.

Err, that's not quite how it works. Hickman is in charge of the overall direction of the franchise. But he's not literally bossing people around on everything they do. He's not even an editor to have an official say in what is or isn't allowed. Other writers obviously go to him and hear what he has to say when it comes to the workings of Krakoa. And obviously they all cordinate the whole line, with Hickman usually being in charge of the major happenings. But even then, X of Swords is said to be both his and Tini's idea. The gala and planet-size is mostly Duggan.

Other writers are still allowed a lot of input, and to say that Hickman deserves credits for not only all their ideas but also which characters are in each roster of each book is ridiculous. They have said on many interviews that each writer picked the roster for their own book. Percy chose Jean for X-Force. Hickman didn't ask him to use her.

Hickman put her on the Quiet Council. That’s a plan, a role for the character.

Again, you seem to have a different idea than most of what having a plan for a character means. Would you affirm Hickman has a plan for every character in the council, simply for them being in the council? Even if that doesn't really result in anything besides panels of them sitting there and a couple lines? Cause I don't agree with that. Jean's role in the council wasn't explored that much and she was the first person to lose it/give it up.

Then he took her off to go form X-Men. That’s a role and a plan, too. Reforming the X-Men is a pretty big role, whether she’s “captain” or not, it was at her behest, her lead. That’s a big deal.

Yes, Hickman can be given credit for Jean's role in the new X-Men team. I already said that. What does this mean for her, though? How does that develop her character? How is she gonna affect the plot of the book? What is gonna be her relationship with the roster? What are gonna be the major things happening to her? Figuring that out is "having a plan for the character" for me. And, afaik, Duggan is gonna be the one deciding that for Jean, not Hickman. "She's on the X-Men" is arguably just the expected for Jean. Would you credit a writer with "having a plan" for Captain America because he put him on the Avengers (without even writing that)?

Now, they’re putting her on the cover of Planet-Size X-Men. Again, that’s a role and a plan, too. Indeed, it’s even a marketing plan. They think Marvel Girl on the cover is going to sell more books.

According to Duggan, he came up with the idea of what's happening in Planet-Size back in 2019. From the info we have, it's apparently something to do with the omega mutants, which is why Jean is on it. So again, Duggan's credit, not Hickman's. And I can't even begin to fathom how you think her being on the cover cause they think her image sells has ANYTHING to do with what we're discussing...

I have nothing against Duggan. I never said he doesn't have plans for Jean. And, outside of HOX #4, I don't necessarily "dislike" Hickman's Jean. I just don't think she's anything noteworthy. He writes her fine. It's not offensive or character assassination. It doesn't, imo, harm her character. Doesn't make me upset. I just think that she's "just there", it's been years since his run started and so far there has been nothing indicating that he has something in store for her. If he surprises me and that turns out to not be the case, great.

[davetvs]

There is nothing happening in the X books that is not coordinated and basically approved by Hickman. But if we want to give Duggan credit, okay, that’s fine. Either way, there’s roles and plans for Jean the character.

Hickman put her on the Quiet Council. That’s a plan, a role for the character.

Before that, she helped take out Orchis, temporarily. She played a role and was part of those plans.

Then he took her off to go form X-Men. That’s a role and a plan, too. Reforming the X-Men is a pretty big role, whether she’s “captain” or not, it was at her behest, her lead. That’s a big deal.

She helped win X of Swords, thus bringing “back” Arakko and its Apocalyptic residents. Again, she was in those plans and had a role.

Now, they’re putting her on the cover of Planet-Size X-Men. Again, that’s a role and a plan, too. Indeed, it’s even a marketing plan. They think Marvel Girl on the cover is going to sell more books.

They’ve given her 2 guys in the HiXmen. Again, it’s a role and a plan.

They’ve made her a “mother” to Nate, and even to Hope and Rachel, sort of. Again, she’s in Hickman’s plans, playing a role.

It maybe that people don’t like what Hickman and Duggan have done to her. I feel she seems like the strongest she’s ever been, characterization wise. Others differ, obviously.

But just because some may not like it does not invalidate that they’ve got plans and a role for Jean. They do have a role and plans for Jean. A character doesn’t need to be the most important thing in the story for the character to still have a role. And Jean’s role is still awfully big. She may not be the professor, Moira or Magento, but she’s up there.

I agree with you, other than that I think Morrison's Jean is still the strongest and best, character wise. I'm not sure the complaints that Jean hasn't "done enough" are coming from. She may not be the main character but she is prominent and has had important things to do. Being on the Quiet Council is important in-story, and re: panel time, they appear regularly. She had a huge showing during King in Black, a company wide event. She was part of the main team mission during House of X. She's founding the new team of X-Men. That's more than a lot of other characters, even main cast members of books like most of Excalibur. As far as I'm concerned, she's done a lot more than Scott has up to this point, even though people are always complaining that she's sidelined for his benefit or only there to support him.

[Brian B]

Err, that's not quite how it works. Hickman is in charge of the overall direction of the franchise. But he's not literally bossing people around on everything they do. He's not even an editor to have an official say in what is or isn't allowed. Other writers obviously go to him and hear what he has to say when it comes to the workings of Krakoa. And obviously they all cordinate the whole line, with Hickman usually being in charge of the major happenings. But even then, X of Swords is said to be both his and Tini's idea. The gala and planet-size is mostly Duggan.

Other writers are still allowed a lot of input, and to say that Hickman deserves credits for not only all their ideas but also which characters are in each roster of each book is ridiculous. They have said on many interviews that each writer picked the roster for their own book. Percy chose Jean for X-Force. Hickman didn't ask him to use her.



Again, you seem to have a different idea than most of what having a plan for a character means. Would you affirm Hickman has a plan for every character in the council, simply for them being in the council? Even if that doesn't really result in anything besides panels of them sitting there and a couple lines? Cause I don't agree with that. Jean's role in the council wasn't explored that much and she was the first person to lose it/give it up.



Yes, Hickman can be given credit for Jean's role in the new X-Men team. I already said that. What does this mean for her, though? How does that develop her character? How is she gonna affect the plot of the book? What is gonna be her relationship with the roster? What are gonna be the major things happening to her? Figuring that out is "having a plan for the character" for me. And, afaik, Duggan is gonna be the one deciding that for Jean, not Hickman. "She's on the X-Men" is arguably just the expected for Jean. Would you credit a writer with "having a plan" for Captain America because he put him on the Avengers (without even writing that)?



According to Duggan, he came up with the idea of what's happening in Planet-Size back in 2019. From the info we have, it's apparently something to do with the omega mutants, which is why Jean is on it. So again, Duggan's credit, not Hickman's. And I can't even begin to fathom how you think her being on the cover cause they think her image sells has ANYTHING to do with what we're discussing...

I have nothing against Duggan. I never said he doesn't have plans for Jean. And, outside of HOX #4, I don't necessarily "dislike" Hickman's Jean. I just don't think she's anything noteworthy. He writes her fine. It's not offensive or character assassination. It doesn't, imo, harm her character. Doesn't make me upset. I just think that she's "just there", it's been years since his run started and so far there has been nothing indicating that he has something in store for her. If he surprises me and that turns out to not be the case, great.

I suggest checking out what Hickman has said he is doing. All ideas are vetted through him. He’s basically a freelance editor and “showrunner” for all the X titles. As I said, if you want to give credit elsewhere, go ahead. Give credit to Duggan, Brisson, Williams, whoever. I don’t care.

But this is Hickman’s show, even if other writers are allowed to come up with ideas that riff on Hickman’s plans — so long as it meets with Hickman’s approval. This is what Hickman has said. I don’t work at Marvel. I assume Hickman’s not lying.

I also think your definition of “role” or “plans” is very limited and limiting.

If a character is in a book — or movie, or play, or any fiction — it’s a role. That’s all there is to it.

[Havok83]

I suggest checking out what Hickman has said he is doing. All ideas are vetted through him. He’s basically a freelance editor and “showrunner” for all the X titles. As I said, if you want to give credit elsewhere, go ahead. Give credit to Duggan, Brisson, Williams, whoever. I don’t care.

But this is Hickman’s show, even if other writers are allowed to come up with ideas that riff on Hickman’s plans — so long as it meets with Hickman’s approval. This is what Hickman has said. I don’t work at Marvel. I assume Hickman’s not lying.

I also think your definition of “role” or “plans” is very limited and limiting.

If a character is in a book — or movie, or play, or any fiction — it’s a role. That’s all there is to it.

If thats the case then its not his role for the character; its the individual writer.

And I dont think Wiccan was saying Jean has no role in the books; she clearly does. Hickman however isnt the one executing said role. She fits in the overall narrative but is more of a bystander in his story arcs

[Grinning Soul]

I think what we're arguing here is a matter of protagonism.

Sage has an important role in Krakoa and she appears everywhere, but I don't think anyone would argue that she is a protagonist of any story so far.

Jean has occupied many roles in this Krakoa era, true. But none of these roles made her the protagonist of any story.

She's married to the CC, but does she have any impact on his decisions? Maybe. But except for XoS, we just don't know. It's not shown. I could argue that, based on what Scott says about the Crucible (in X-Men #7, I believe), they don't even speak that much.

She's mother to Rachel and Cable and she’s supposed to be in role of their mother. But does she have an influence on their actions? Maybe. But again, except for cooking dinner, we haven't seen much interaction between them. Not even in the book that is supposed to be about their family.

She was in Quiet Council. We saw she suggested the "Murder no Man" law. But how did she vote concerning Sinister's group therapy, which affected her brother-in-law? Concerning the Crucible? Concerning Madelyne? We just don't know. If she had any protagonism, if she mattered as a character instead of a role, we *would* have been shown.

She is in a polyamorous relationship. But is it something she wanted? Was it her suggestion? Is it something she's trying out because society is so different "why the hell not?" We don't know. So, again, it's not about the character. She's serving as an allegory for Krakoa’s morality.

She'll be in this Omega team Magneto is putting together. Yeah. She's an Omega. Again, this isn't about who she is as a character. It's about her powers. Will we even see what she thinks about the endeavour or will she just be there?

Now she'll be in the X-Men team. Yes, she seems to have had this idea with Scott. That means she's part of the premise. But, again, that's a role. That doesn't imply protagonism.

And before anyone makes a point out of this, in a group, everyone should be the protagonist. It's hard for the writer, it takes a lot of care and time, but you know it's done right when you see it. Compare the first X-Men movie to the first Avengers movie. In X-Men, Wolverine is the undisputed protagonist. In Avengers, all characters contribute to the story. You have Thor and Hulk in the team, but Natasha is still important to the story, because even though she's much less powerful than they are, she is a spy and she can can do what they can't.

So if Jean isn't offering something unique to the X-Men team other than her telepathy, yeah, she'll have a role as co-leader. But she'll have no protagonism.

And I think that’s what bothers a lot of us here.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I don't even think she will be "co-leader" in any practical sense whatsoever. The main character is the leader.

Maybe Duggan will give her something to do, but, like, cross your fingers.

As for TP...that's for communicating the leader's plan lol

[Grinning Soul]

I don't even think she will be "co-leader" in any practical sense whatsoever. The main character is the leader.

Maybe Duggan will give her something to do, but, like, cross your fingers.

As for TP...that's for communicating the leader's plan lol

Yeah. I think that's what a lot of us is afraid of. She'll have the "role" of co-leader, but if that doesn't translate to anything important and we don't get to see it on panel, it's just a name.

Again: I hope I'm wrong and she's amazing in the new book. I'll give it an honest try.

[Wiccan]

X-Men #2 covers:

[Wiccan]

I suggest checking out what Hickman has said he is doing. All ideas are vetted through him. He’s basically a freelance editor and “showrunner” for all the X titles. As I said, if you want to give credit elsewhere, go ahead. Give credit to Duggan, Brisson, Williams, whoever. I don’t care.

But this is Hickman’s show, even if other writers are allowed to come up with ideas that riff on Hickman’s plans — so long as it meets with Hickman’s approval. This is what Hickman has said. I don’t work at Marvel. I assume Hickman’s not lying.

I also think your definition of “role” or “plans” is very limited and limiting.

If a character is in a book — or movie, or play, or any fiction — it’s a role. That’s all there is to it.

I read almost if not all interviews that Hickman and JDW and all the writers do. He has said many times that it's all very colaborative. That the other writers still have creative freedom. That he's not micromaning everything. Just because he has a lowkey unofficial editor-like position, doesn't mean that saying that all the writing in other books or that a character's place on the roster of a book that the writer himself said he personally picked her for is his idea. It's just literally not. If you think that whoever "runs the show" is the one responsable for everything, then you might as well forget about writers and say JDW is in charge. Or Cebulski who's above him. Damn, Kevin Feige has recently gotten a position of overseeing comics.

Also, you're the one saying "roles" over and over. I never said Jean doesn't "have a role". I said Hickman doesn't seem to have plans for her. And I'll stand by that until he does something with her that changes my mind. In my opinion you're the one who has a way too broad definition of what a writer "having plans" for something is. So we can just agree to disagree.

[Harpsikord]

If the pose in the Asrar cover isn't a leadership pose I don't what is.

[Conor]

Mahmud did a fantastic job of the MG costume on that cover, love Jean’s pose, love how she’s front and centre and fulfilling the “leader” role on Asrar’s variant.

[Wiccan]

Mahmud did a fantastic job of the MG costume on that cover, love Jean’s pose, love how she’s front and centre and fulfilling the “leader” role on Asrar’s variant.

I thinK Asrar's is my favorite version of the costume. Just wish he didn't do the gloves loose too.

[Phoenixx9]

Mahmud did a fantastic job of the MG costume on that cover, love Jean’s pose, love how she’s front and centre and fulfilling the “leader” role on Asrar’s variant.

I agree. I like seeing Jean up front, confident and ready to lead the way!