Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[johnnysv75]

She lacked an edge under Taylor, which was the only thing missing in his Jean, she would have only been rivaled by Morrison's Jean if she had it imo.

Claremont’s Jean in UXM 125-131 will always be my favorite Jean. Morrison is a close second. Taylor and Percy are next for me. I hated the early 90s, but from X-Men 28 and onward both Nizieca and Lobdell often got her right. I liked Mark Waid’s Jean a lot. And both Joe Kelly and Steve Seagle wrote her really well - I still dream about their vision for Jean as Phoenix. I almost forgot Louise Simonson! Some of her work in X-Factor is classic.
Maaaaybe my top 5 is:
1. Claremont
2. Morrison
3. Percy/Taylor
4. Louise Simonson
5. Steve Seagle/Joe Kelly

And I think it's because we don't actually see much of what is going on in her head. So it's hard for me to see if she reads a bit colder because she's over-compensating, trying too look strong when she's feeling very weak (until the Phoenix appears again) or because... I don't know what would be the alternative, actually. Just really changing that much is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

I think it's the first case, though, considering the conversation she has with Logan at some point. But I wish Morrison would have given us more insight.

Sometimes I really really really miss the classic thought bubbles.

[Rang10]

That might be entirely true but not very reflective of how many writers used her directly following his run, which was completely different all across the board. I've been re-reading Morrison's run recently and I genuinely understand why many didn't enjoy that run. My own personal biases aside, he introduced many themes and characterizations which weren't in line with much of what came before it. Sure he touched or revisited many of the narratives crafted by Claremont, but there was a definitive need in him to deconstruct the franchise without the wherewithal to put any of his pieces back.

That said, in all the years since his run I have yet to read a Jean nearly as complex, she had layers, and thoughts or emotions regarding the people and things in her life. She was active and a force of change both figuratively and literally she had a voice, and while the ending wasn't really in line with where he started with her. For one of the first times Jean felt like a fully developed character to me. She wasn't the young ingenue afraid of her potential, she wasn't just a love interest, she had problems and she didn't always handle them right. But I'll never forget a quote from Morrison about her, "She tries so hard to be good, that she sometimes forgets to be human". I wish more writers focused on her heroism opposed to her being very reactive in the narratives she's used.

I'm mixed on Morrison, but I think it was negative for X-men. it put toxic masculinity front of center instead of great female characters.
i don't like that phrase, it is cynical, you can be really that good and human.

Sometimes characterizations take some time to catch on, on uncanny right after Red Jean characterization was basically Jean on x-men red.
What screw up this era is that Hickman doesnt like Jean.

[Rang10]

Sure, of course. But she was dealing with the trauma of surviving Genosha and trying to fit in a group of super heroes, while feeling very innadequate and very jealous of Jean. She reverted back to old habits. That doesn't excuse her actions, but I don't want to paint her a villain either.

None of that justify anything. Nobody good go for sexual predate someone that asked for help, th tis basically sociopathy.

No. That's what he tells Jean when he's caught. He's desperate, he repeats a line that Emma told him. What he tells Emma on each and every encounter is that he's cheating and he's not okay with it.

So, it is even worse because he changed of idea when he started to like cheating.

I'm very sorry to hear it. If you ever want to talk about it, I'm also here, okay?

There was a moment in my life when I was really depressed because of my health. I was young and I thought my life was over. It was really hard to push out of my personal misery bubble and try to treat people well, try to relate to what my family was feeling, etc... Really. It was a daily struggle and some days I really couldn't do it. The thing about depression is that it attacks you at that place that motivates you to do anything, it kills everything that is joyful and every thing that can replenish your strength.

So yeah, when something is offered to you that can get you out of that misery, even if only a temporary relief, even if it's detrimental in the long term, it's really hard to say no to it.

Alright, that is your experience and it is valid. But Scott was a fully grown man, leader of the x-men. He should know better, we saw he doing same thing many times.
That is why he is overrated as x-men leader.

He couldn't. He was ashamed.

And yes, he liked it: drug addicts also like their drugs.

he wasn't addicted, he fell out of Love with Jean and fell in love with Emma. Pretty simple.
drugs can be hard, but is not comparable to this

I'm not sure Scott has ever made himself the victim of anything. He tends to put the blame on everything on his shoulders, actually.

by doing tht, when he is gulty is has less weight on him. That is so true that he rarely suffer consequences for anything wrong he done. he wants emma? he gets emma, he want jean now? he gets Jean

Some writers really tried to push it. And that's why Jean wouldn't even be mentioned when it made total sense that she would be (trust me: it infuriated me). And that's because the power of their relationship was still that strong in the X-mythos.

And even in Endsong, you can see he's not over Jean at all. The way they say goodbye, when she's wearing the White Pheonix uniform... It's sad and hopeful and heartfelt... That's true love. It's impossible for them at that moment, but it's still there.

he is so over Jean on Endsong that he sends her away, like she was a annoying ex.

Again: like an addict?

But he didn't even do that. Jean died before they could figure out what they'd do with their marriage.

he wasn't a addict. He just feel in love with anothe person because he never really love Jean on the right way

Look, I'm never going to defend abandoning a family. But:

1) Even thought he loved Jean, Scott tried to get back to that family.
2) Personally, I have to believe that people can be redeemed, because we all make mistakes. And yes, some of them are really big ones, but what does it mean if we can't be redeemed? Should we just give up on life if we make one of those?

More importantly, do you think Jean, of all people, would believe that?

Of course she would believe on that. And she would be wrong and be his victim years later.

It was his wife and his kid was a baby, she begged him to stay. There isn't excuses for his cruelty with Maddie.

Do you remember which comic is that one?

Not sure, i have a guess it is Endsong or maybe warsong.

He could. But Scott, historically, runs away when he's confused. He was confused.


Well, there was her choice. And facing her would be very difficult for him at that moment.

he is the x-men leader, a brilliant mind. I'm sure he could get to talk with his wife.

He was not in love with Emma. It's never said. He tells Emma, after Jean pushes him, he'd like to be with "someone he cares for", which makes her upset.

The relationship lasted because Emma was a good partner for him, as far as she could, at least. And he was grateful for her. Those things are enough to develop some kind of love on someone like him. It's a genuine love, even. It's just not the same kind of love he felt for Jean.

He was in love with Emma and really liked her. It wasn't mind control from jean, that is both nonsense and disrespectiful for Jean.

[Grinning Soul]

None of that justify anything. Nobody good go for sexual predate someone that asked for help, th tis basically sociopathy.
So, it is even worse because he changed of idea when he started to like cheating.
Alright, that is your experience and it is valid. But Scott was a fully grown man, leader of the x-men. He should know better, we saw he doing same thing many times.
That is why he is overrated as x-men leader.
he wasn't addicted, he fell out of Love with Jean and fell in love with Emma. Pretty simple.
drugs can be hard, but is not comparable to this
by doing tht, when he is gulty is has less weight on him. That is so true that he rarely suffer consequences for anything wrong he done. he wants emma? he gets emma, he want jean now? he gets Jean
he is so over Jean on Endsong that he sends her away, like she was a annoying ex.
he wasn't a addict. He just feel in love with anothe person because he never really love Jean on the right way
Of course she would believe on that. And she would be wrong and be his victim years later.
It was his wife and his kid was a baby, she begged him to stay. There isn't excuses for his cruelty with Maddie.
Not sure, i have a guess it is Endsong or maybe warsong.
he is the x-men leader, a brilliant mind. I'm sure he could get to talk with his wife.
He was in love with Emma and really liked her. It wasn't mind control from jean, that is both nonsense and disrespectiful for Jean.

Addiction is just an analogy for the escape from a miserable, soul-crushing situation. It's not a good one, I admit. But there's nothing really comparable to a psychic affair. in real life. It was the best I could think of.

Look, I could go on and on here, but I think we made our main points, right? So, let's just agree that we disagree? :)

[Grinning Soul]

Sometimes I really really really miss the classic thought bubbles.

Yeah, me too. But you know... I was thinking after I posted... Had Morrison actually bothered with continuity and he showed some inner dialogue for Jean, would people still like her as much in his run? The answer I arrived at was: "probably not".

And it saddened me.

[jmc247]

I think when you're dealing with a powerful telepath who played a part in killing sixteen million people, and put your daughter in collar with a leash, then at some point, you should cut loose. But that's just me.

Agreed.

I had a lot of issues with the final arc of Red. Jean was there in the ruins seeing the charred bodies of women and children by the hundreds of thousands. That is the sort of thing one does not ever forget. She should not have pulled her punches.

[Havok83]

The problem with the way Red ended is that that was almost exactly how Nova's arc ended in Morrison's run. Jean realizing she lacks empathy some she founds a way to give her some and leaves her in a position to be rehabilitated. It didnt work the first time so it was a bit foolsih of Jean to try that same thing again. I wish there was follow up to Red and Nova's fate as that may have provided more context to Jean's decision but as it stood, she just made the same mistake

[Rang10]

Yeah, me too. But you know... I was thinking after I posted... Had Morrison actually bothered with continuity and he showed some inner dialogue for Jean, would people still like her as much in his run? The answer I arrived at was: "probably not".

And it saddened me.

If he did a good job and showed her as victim, it would work in favor of Jean. But I'm sure he would never do it

[Phoenixx9]

You mean the time Scott was mind raped by his the rapist

I fixed that for you.

[Phoenixx9]

Claremont’s Jean in UXM 125-131 will always be my favorite Jean. Morrison is a close second. Taylor and Percy are next for me. I hated the early 90s, but from X-Men 28 and onward both Nizieca and Lobdell often got her right. I liked Mark Waid’s Jean a lot. And both Joe Kelly and Steve Seagle wrote her really well - I still dream about their vision for Jean as Phoenix. I almost forgot Louise Simonson! Some of her work in X-Factor is classic.
Maaaaybe my top 5 is:
1. Claremont
2. Morrison
3. Percy/Taylor
4. Louise Simonson
5. Steve Seagle/Joe Kelly



Sometimes I really really really miss the classic thought bubbles.

Some good Jean Phoenix issues for sure! I liked that there were many things going on at once, and we got to see lots of characters.

Agree about the thought bubbles, lol.

But I also liked that silent issue with Emma and Jean inside Charles' mind. That had some funny parts, like when Emma gets stuck in his mind-goo, is frustrated and then Jean gives her a look like, "C'mon Emma, stop playing around!" and then Emma gets mad and punches that face in the wall. Lol.

[Rang10]

Addiction is just an analogy for the escape from a miserable, soul-crushing situation. It's not a good one, I admit. But there's nothing really comparable to a psychic affair. in real life. It was the best I could think of.

Look, I could go on and on here, but I think we made our main points, right? So, let's just agree that we disagree?

You are right, there isn't anything comparable to psychic affair on rea life. At least Percy clarified that it wasn't just thoughts.

ok then.

[Tank]

God I hated Tom Taylor’s pacifist care bear Jean. Give me Morrison or Claremont, even Kelly or Seagle. Heck Cates did better with her in one issue than the entirety of Red. I need her fire and temper.

Her pacifist portrayal is maybe why she’s such a push over right now and why she’s not very offensive at all with her powers. That beating Cassandra with empathy was so anti-climatic and cheesy. We were all waiting for a knock down drag out fight and we got a CareBear stare.
Taylor’s jean is awful. Taylor took the bite of X-23 just like he went on to do with Jean...

[Rang10]

God I hated Tom Taylor’s pacifist care bear Jean. Give me Morrison or Claremont, even Kelly or Seagle. Heck Cates did better with her in one issue than the entirety of Red. I need her fire and temper.

Her pacifist portrayal is maybe why she’s such a push over right now and why she’s not very offensive at all with her powers. That beating Cassandra with empathy was so anti-climatic and cheesy. We were all waiting for a knock down drag out fight and we got a CareBear stare.
Taylor’s jean is awful. Taylor took the bite of X-23 just like he went on to do with Jean...

I disagree. Taylor made Laura great, made her solo go for +30 issues.

Also right after Red, Jean was good on the Uncanny brief relaunch

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I agree with everyone saying Taylor's Jean didn't have enough bite. She absolutely didn't. She didn't threaten or terrify anyone the entire time (besides hot dog kid). So annoying. Still love that run though.

What I really want, no, NEED, is a Jean solo from Percy or Dennis Hopeless. I cannot deal with Hickman's mockery and while Duggan may not be as intentionally offensive as Hickman...eh...will see how he does.

Percy's Jean and Hopeless' Jean were allowed personal motivations and feelings and feistiness. They show her as more than solely a doting and weeping love interest (most of the time) and that is so critical to keeping the character fresh and allowing her to be her best. She needs a modern-minded writer.

[Rang10]

I agree with everyone saying Taylor's Jean didn't have enough bite. She absolutely didn't. Still love that run though.

What I really want, no, NEED, is a Jean solo from Percy or Dennis Hopeless. I cannot deal with Hickman's mockery and while Duggan may not be as intentionally offensive as Hickman...eh...will see how he does.

Percy's Jean and Hopeless' Jean were allowed personal motivations and feelings and feistiness. They show her as more than solely a doting and weeping love interest (most of the time) and that is so critical to keeping the character fresh and allowing her to be her best. She needs a modern-minded writer.

I would rather get Bendis again to write Jean than Percy and Hopeless. He barely got a chance to do it.

I don't think Percy or Hopeless really get to her core. Hopeless solo is basically a non factor