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  1. #9721
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I love the issue where Jean proposes to Scott. It is a favorite of mine. I love how they talk about the Phoenix years and again it was a good reminder that Phoenix did have the heart and soul of Jean Grey and this issue makes it clear it was Jean's humanity that led Dark Phoenix to commit suicide. It still places Jean as the hero in that story despite the retcon and it reaffirms what we learnt in Inferno that a part of Jean's soul was always there in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix years.

    I did read X-men 5 and I liked it a lot. Great stuff for Polaris. She's becoming a dynamic character again and it is great. I didn't see much problems with what Jean did. I actually like it when telepaths do somewhat questionable things - and let's face it all the telepaths are shown to do questionable things. Jean just went with Lorna's first instinct and she knew what it was because of her vast telepathic powers. People say it was like Teen Jean all over again but recall it was Claremont that had Jean change others minds - re: Dark Phoenix Saga when Jean/Phoenix changed Kitty's parents minds. This as something Jean would do was established way before Bendis.
    I love what you wrote regarding that telepaths should be depicted as being "eerie." Something about that description hits right. Frankly, I'm happy that what Jean did has generated discussion. Good, or, at the very least, interesting writing should do that. I also like that it shows she is willing to cross boundaries based on her convictions.

    Good point regarding Jean being shown first doing this during the Dark Phoenix Saga.

  2. #9722
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    I know this is pointless, but for whoever might be reading this who doesn't know those stories:

    1) Claremont started with this stuff that sometimes telepaths just can't help picking thoughts or feelings up with their telepathy. It's not supposed to be deliberately. We may not like it as readers, but it's canon. And it's objectively distinct to making someone feel/think differently than they'd normally do because those are active usage of their telepathic power.

    2) Jean during the period in which she was merged with the Phoenix (if you even consider it was her and not the Force emulating her) went through a period in which she was adapting to her new reality of experiencing the vastness of that cosmic power. At the same time it disconnected her with humanity (she had trouble even expressing what she was feeling to her loved ones), she felt very human. And in the mix of all of this, she was finding harder to limit herself to her previous considerations about morality and ethics. That's the whole point of those scenes.

    3) After the DPS, Jean has lived and learnt a lot. Considering the time she spent in the future, she's at least a good 15 years older than the images posted previously.

    --

    Now I'm not arguing anything here. I'll leave this info for people to come to their own conclusions if those examples justify her behavior under Duggan's pen (not only in #5) or not.

  3. #9723
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    Claremont had characters babble needlessly. He is really a poor writer by modern standards, which is why his attempted comebacks failed.

  4. #9724
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    Without Claremont there’s no x-men,
    Last edited by Daedra; 11-25-2021 at 04:49 PM.
    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  5. #9725
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Claremont had characters babble needlessly. He is really a poor writer by modern standards, which is why his attempted comebacks failed.
    He’s the reason the Xmen are as multifaceted as they are. Say what you will about his style and verbose-ness, but he made the characters (Jean included) into what they are today.

    His characterization and long term plotting is unmatched and he never let his characters get lost in the plot like many current writers do.

  6. #9726
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I know this is pointless, but for whoever might be reading this who doesn't know those stories:

    1) Claremont started with this stuff that sometimes telepaths just can't help picking thoughts or feelings up with their telepathy. It's not supposed to be deliberately. We may not like it as readers, but it's canon. And it's objectively distinct to making someone feel/think differently than they'd normally do because those are active usage of their telepathic power.

    2) Jean during the period in which she was merged with the Phoenix (if you even consider it was her and not the Force emulating her) went through a period in which she was adapting to her new reality of experiencing the vastness of that cosmic power. At the same time it disconnected her with humanity (she had trouble even expressing what she was feeling to her loved ones), she felt very human. And in the mix of all of this, she was finding harder to limit herself to her previous considerations about morality and ethics. That's the whole point of those scenes.

    3) After the DPS, Jean has lived and learnt a lot. Considering the time she spent in the future, she's at least a good 15 years older than the images posted previously.

    --

    Now I'm not arguing anything here. I'll leave this info for people to come to their own conclusions if those examples justify her behavior under Duggan's pen (not only in #5) or not.
    I like what Jean did in number 5. Right it or wrong it’s interesting.

    I dont want Saint Jean. That’s not who the character is. She has her impulses, her flaws, her darker uses of her powers. To keep her slate completely clean and to make everything she does not be nuanced or have her always completely right makes her boring.

    I dont want to read about a moral paragon. I want to read about a moral character that can at time do immoral things or make questionable decisions because she’s human. That makes her well rounded, relatable and interesting.

    And while some have issues with what she did in number 5, it’s not even that big a deal to me.
    Last edited by Tank; 11-25-2021 at 04:55 PM.

  7. #9727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    He’s the reason the Xmen are as multifaceted as they are. Say what you will about his style and verbose-ness, but he made the characters (Jean included) into what they are today.

    His characterization and long term plotting is unmatched and he never let his characters get lost in the plot like many current writers do.
    He didn’t create X-Men or mutants. And if you read the current run, Lobdell’s 90s creations are as much a part of the X-Men as Claremont’s 80s X-Men.

    This is the 21st century, not the 1980s. I can say it again, by today’s standards Claremont is mediocre at best and awful at worst considering he got repeatedly fired. Can we say washed up snd out of touch?

  8. #9728
    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    He didn’t create X-Men or mutants. And if you read the current run, Lobdell’s 90s creations are as much a part of the X-Men as Claremont’s 80s X-Men.

    This is the 21st century, not the 1980s. I can say it again, by today’s standards Claremont is mediocre at best and awful at worst considering he got repeatedly fired. Can we say washed up snd out of touch?
    Let's be honest, we are still running on Claremont fumes.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  9. #9729
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Let's be honest, we are still running on Claremont fumes.
    We aren’t. Claremont just had two or three stories in him. Mind control, a woman becoming all powerful, days of the future past.he became so played out he got fired after the 80s were over.

    And he has been washed up every since. Finished.

  10. #9730
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    Claremont wrote the X-Men as underground and marginalized. If you look at the way Mohawk Storm and Rogue dresssed at that time, they looked like East Village punks.

    That was the 80s.

    Today the situation with marginalized people is pretty different, and it’s why we have the Krakoa era. Very different time snd of course you have to written for current fans snd for the future. I’m sure a number of 80s fans are already dead and in real life we don’t have the five so they ain’t coming back.

  11. #9731
    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    We aren’t. Claremont just had two or three stories in him. Mind control, a woman becoming all powerful, days of the future past.he became so played out he got fired after the 80s were over.

    And he has been washed up every since. Finished.
    We are in the middle of a big Days of Future Past story.

    I'm just glad the Kitty/Rasputins hybrid didn't do a Rachel and come to the 616.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  12. #9732
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Claremont deserves a lot of credit for the success of the X-men. It would not be the same without him. It is funny to see all the love he gets now when both times Claremont came back to the X-men there was a lot of hate online for his work. I'm talking the revolution run and his X-men Reload run. Remember when he would post on X-fan (later named comixfan) or even on here? People were brutal to him. Now I think he would get a different reaction.

    I think there were times his work came across as dated due to his style and his overuse of the same phrases made a lot of the characters sound like they had the same voice. But we have to give credit where it is due- Claremont wrote some strong complex characters especially the women - Jean, Storm, etc.

    I will always love the original Phoenix and Dark Phoenix stories as well as the rest of his run. He is the definitive Storm writer imo.

    As for Jean.. I agree that I don't want saint Jean. I want Jean to be as complex as other characters get to be. I know she's probably always going to be in the den mother role and I've made piece with that and she's back to being stuck with Cyclops and I've come to accept that as well, but I'm glad that sometimes she can do things that are a little questionable. Telepaths should make other characters uneasy. They should make us uneasy too.

  13. #9733
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    I like what Jean did in number 5. Right it or wrong it’s interesting.

    I dont want Saint Jean. That’s not who the character is. She has her impulses, her flaws, her darker uses of her powers. To keep her slate completely clean and to make everything she does not be nuanced or have her always completely right makes her boring.

    I dont want to read about a moral paragon. I want to read about a moral character that can at time do immoral things or make questionable decisions because she’s human. That makes her well rounded, relatable and interesting.

    And while some have issues with what she did in number 5, it’s not even that big a deal to me.
    Totally agree.

    I think Morrison said it best when he said that Jean tries so hard to be good she forgets to be human. Those of us who try to be our best (moral, decent) still make mistakes and still do things that others may find questionable. That is how I see Jean.. she wants to be her best version but she's human and will make mistakes. I think some fans were uneasy because Jean didn't apologize and continued to justify her actions (they were upset that Jean was shown to be right even though they questioned her decision). I think some fans want Jean to be thrown off her high horse and for other characters to call her out (which has happened before, Iceman called her out, etc.).

    I am enjoying Duggan's treatment of Jean. I think it is funny that some fans were saying it feels like a stealth Jean solo like X-men Red. I disagree with that assessment, but as a co-leader of the X-men Jean does have a very important role in this book so it is not surprising that she gets a lot of space.

  14. #9734
    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Jean just wants what is best for her friends, and if she has to give them a lil tap to be happy, so be it.

    If not for her, Bobby would still be pretending he has secrets in a house full of mind-readers who are more unscrupulous than she is.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  15. #9735
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    https://twitter.com/xternaIs/status/1464085963294986242

    Jean wanted none of that spice lmfao

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