Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Rang10]

Ah the Hickman hate circle wank and hyperbolic discussion continues.

It's honestly weird to see some Jean fans paint the (very misogynistic) narrative that Jean's character has been regressed to a glorified housewife who only lives to prop up Cyclops. It's like some of you are determined to rob Jean of any agency.

Sure if we don't notice that the writers are doing it, it will simply go away;

I've always felt like Jean could have been the central figure of this era instead of Moira. If we're telling a story about a woman who has lived many different lives then why not go with the OG X-man with a penchant for resurrection and who also used to be a godly being.

That makes sense, but Hickman can break a character with the stuff he is doing with Moira.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Ah the Hickman hate circle wank and hyperbolic discussion continues.

It's honestly weird to see some Jean fans paint the (very misogynistic) narrative that Jean's character has been regressed to a glorified housewife who only lives to prop up Cyclops. It's like some of you are determined to rob Jean of any agency.

Nah. That's the stories determined to do that. Well...not Percy. And apparently not that Donny Cates guy, who doesn't write X-Men yet.

[whitecrown]

You have a link with Hickman saying any of these things about Jean?

That would make a ton of sense given how he writes her, but I don't think I've seen quotes of him saying this stuff. Not surprising at all if we go off the way he presents the character.

Way back in 2011, back when Marvel.com used to do those annual rankings of best heroes of the year and couples, they did an article on power couples which included Scemma. And it was just a bunch of Marvel writers basically propping up Scemma by trashing Jott. A lot of nonsense about how their relationship plateaued when they fight on the Blue Area of the Moon in UXM 137 and how Scott was only a boy back then and being with Jean held him back, which is why he needs Emma. Hickman was one of those writers who was a big Scemma fan, which I specifically remember because I was a fan of him back then with Fantastic Four, so I wasn't pleased to see him dissing Jean. There was a lot of hate towards Jean back then from editorial and a lot of the writers also made clear that they felt Jean should never have come back after her first death and it was good she was gone because Scott could grow as a character without her. and trash articles like this kept hashing up this nonsense.

I don't think those links are still available now but I do remember that the old Jean threads from back then did discuss this since her fans were outraged at the blatant disrespect (as used to it as we were).

Really misogynistic the notion that a woman make a guy a man or a boy. It doesn't even makes sense because Jean and Scott started dating when they were adults, married, raised Cable together.
I think you are into something about Jean, that is the only explanation for the regress on her character. The opening of first x-men issue is Xavier with really young teenage Scott.



I think he was going to use teen Jean just like Bendis did

This is what we Jean fans used to point out whenever hack writers like Hickman would make comments about how Jean was only the love of Scott's life from his youth, Emma was the one who made him the man he is today (if he means the terrorist Wrongclops, he'd be right about that though). Jean and Scott weren't just ypung lovers who lost each other in their teens or early 20s and that was the end of it. They got married as adults, raised a child together for 12 years in the future, etc. and have a much longer history together than just the Dark Phoenix Saga. But so much of Marvel creatives seemed to believe that Jean should have stayed dead after her first death and they loved to bring that up all the time as to why she shouldn't come back from her second death, so it seems like they really did just ignore any of her history from X-Factor onward.

Yes, it was Teen Jean he was going to use, hence also why Remender picturized the Marvel Girl version of Jean. But I still consider that Jean, especially since that was before the adult Jean had come back. Remender did an amazing job with AoA Jean who was different from ours, yet still felt like the core of the character, so I'm sure he could have handled Teen Jean as well and still made her feel like ours.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Way back in 2011, back when Marvel.com used to do those annual rankings of best heroes of the year and couples, they did an article on power couples which included Scemma. And it was just a bunch of Marvel writers basically propping up Scemma by trashing Jott. A lot of nonsense about how their relationship plateaued when they fight on the Blue Area of the Moon in UXM 137 and how Scott was only a boy back then and being with Jean held him back, which is why he needs Emma. Hickman was one of those writers who was a big Scemma fan, which I specifically remember because I was a fan of him back then with Fantastic Four, so I wasn't pleased to see him dissing Jean. There was a lot of hate towards Jean back then from editorial and a lot of the writers also made clear that they felt Jean should never have come back after her first death and it was good she was gone because Scott could grow as a character without her. and trash articles like this kept hashing up this nonsense.

I don't think those links are still available now but I do remember that the old Jean threads from back then did discuss this since her fans were outraged at the blatant disrespect (as used to it as we were).


This is what we Jean fans used to point out whenever hack writers like Hickman would make comments about how Jean was only the love of Scott's life from his youth, Emma was the one who made him the man he is today (if he means the terrorist Wrongclops, he'd be right about that though). Jean and Scott weren't just ypung lovers who lost each other in their teens or early 20s and that was the end of it. They got married as adults, raised a child together for 12 years in the future, etc. and have a much longer history together than just the Dark Phoenix Saga. But so much of Marvel creatives seemed to believe that Jean should have stayed dead after her first death and they loved to bring that up all the time as to why she shouldn't come back from her second death, so it seems like they really did just ignore any of her history from X-Factor onward.

Yes, it was Teen Jean he was going to use, hence also why Remender picturized the Marvel Girl version of Jean. But I still consider that Jean, especially since that was before the adult Jean had come back. Remender did an amazing job with AoA Jean who was different from ours, yet still felt like the core of the character, so I'm sure he could have handled Teen Jean as well and still made her feel like ours.

Well, he seems to be a Jott shipper now, sadly.

[Peanutsinspace]

I have not been keeping up with this run for reasons like this but I had no idea that she literally forgot she has one of her powers. I already thought the way Psylocke and Storm have been sidelined was bad enough, but this might be even worse. This treatment is abhorrent. I know Hickman said he felt Jean was only the love of Scott's life when he was a boy and she kept him from growing up and becoming a man, so is this why he feels that for Scott and Jean to be together, it can only work if she's still the young pre-Phoenix version of herself? How misogynistic.

Where did he say this?

[Zelena]

I have not been keeping up with this run for reasons like this but I had no idea that she literally forgot she has one of her powers. I already thought the way Psylocke and Storm have been sidelined was bad enough, but this might be even worse. This treatment is abhorrent. I know Hickman said he felt Jean was only the love of Scott's life when he was a boy and she kept him from growing up and becoming a man, so is this why he feels that for Scott and Jean to be together, it can only work if she's still the young pre-Phoenix version of herself? How misogynistic.

If it’s his idea, it’s a rubbish idea because there has been a lot of water under the bridge since the first days… Jean Grey died several times… Other teamates died and resurrected… Scott Summers had a relationship with Emma and with other women.

I know the faces of these characters look young and fresh, but they suppose to have a lifetime of experience behind them. These experiences make people grow… It’s the main inconsistence: it doesn’t show enough in this run and it’s not credible.

[andreikes]

What will be the next edition that Jean will appear?

[Rang10]

What will be the next edition that Jean will appear?

The next x-men issues will be focused on children of the vault, my guess she might be on x-force that she is on cover

[Celgress]

Its giving me these vibes

I remember seeing this around when I was young, hahaha sweet.

[Soulsword323]

I don't care too much for Hickman's Jean, but I don't think he's misogynistic. Just because a writer doesn't write the character the way you want doesn't mean there is some ulterior motive behind it. He doesn't gel with Jean thus far IMO, but I don't think it goes deeper than that.

[Vishop]

I don't care too much for Hickman's Jean, but I don't think he's misogynistic. Just because a writer doesn't write the character the way you want doesn't mean there is some ulterior motive behind it. He doesn't gel with Jean thus far IMO, but I don't think it goes deeper than that.

Yeah, I am not buying he is misogynistic either. Under Hickman, Percy was also there who was using Jean decently. But over the years Hickman doesn't have the capability to write female characters all too well even if those books are indies(but an exception might be Xiaolian Mao from East of West). Either that or its Cyclops being a more developed figurehead character over the past few years.

[whitecrown]

Where did he say this?

Way back in 2011, back when Marvel.com used to do those annual rankings of best heroes of the year and couples, they did an article on power couples which included Scemma. And it was just a bunch of Marvel writers basically propping up Scemma by trashing Jott. A lot of nonsense about how their relationship plateaued when they fight on the Blue Area of the Moon in UXM 137 and how Scott was only a boy back then and being with Jean held him back, which is why he needs Emma. Hickman was one of those writers who was a big Scemma fan, which I specifically remember because I was a fan of him back then with Fantastic Four, so I wasn't pleased to see him dissing Jean. There was a lot of hate towards Jean back then from editorial and a lot of the writers also made clear that they felt Jean should never have come back after her first death and it was good she was gone because Scott could grow as a character without her. and trash articles like this kept hashing up this nonsense.

I don't think those links are still available now but I do remember that the old Jean threads from back then did discuss this since her fans were outraged at the blatant disrespect (as used to it as we were).

Well, he seems to be a Jott shipper now, sadly.

He seems to be a Jott shipper until Jean dies on the moon so it's no wonder he prefers the Marvel Girl costume.

[Daedra]

Yeah, I am not buying he is misogynistic either. Under Hickman, Percy was also there who was using Jean decently. But over the years Hickman doesn't have the capability to write female characters all too well even if those books are indies(but an exception might be Xiaolian Mao from East of West). Either that or its Cyclops being a more developed figurehead character over the past few years.

Hickman just doesn't know ho to write Jean and when he does his take just comes out as very antiquated and regressive, other than that I don't think It is fair nor proper to express generalized opinions about him as a person.

[whitecrown]

I don't care too much for Hickman's Jean, but I don't think he's misogynistic. Just because a writer doesn't write the character the way you want doesn't mean there is some ulterior motive behind it. He doesn't gel with Jean thus far IMO, but I don't think it goes deeper than that.

It's not his treatment of Jean that makes me think that. It's his treatment of many female characters beyond just Jean, such as Ororo and Betsy being sidelined in the new status quo, or how he treated Carol in the Avengers run which I wasn't even aware of until Rang10 pointed it out. Sometimes unconscious biases from learned culture is enough even if Hickman doesn't walk around thinking to himself that he's a misogynist and what female character should he downplay today. It's also not surprising to me that his favorite female character is essentially the glorification of a fanboy's wet dream.

If it’s his idea, it’s a rubbish idea because there has been a lot of water under the bridge since the first days… Jean Grey died several times… Other teamates died and resurrected… Scott Summers had a relationship with Emma and with other women.

I know the faces of these characters look young and fresh, but they suppose to have a lifetime of experience behind them. These experiences make people grow… It’s the main inconsistence: it doesn’t show enough in this run and it’s not credible.

The thing is that Hickman is not alone in feeling this way. Back in the 2000s and the first half of the 2010s, the entire mentality Marvel had towards Jean was that she should never have come back after her first death, and it wasn't even as much because it tarnished the legacy of the Dark Phoenix Saga as much as because they felt Jean held Scott back as a character and nothing between that couple would ever top fighting on the Blue Area of the Moon.

Jean may be back now but a lot of those writers and editors are still around harboring those same views. The fact that Hickman felt this way towards Jean and now Jean is being sidelined doesn't come across as a surprise to me especially since he's always made clear that he prefers Emma, both as an individual character and as a ship with Cyclops.

[Triniking1234]

I don't care too much for Hickman's Jean, but I don't think he's misogynistic. Just because a writer doesn't write the character the way you want doesn't mean there is some ulterior motive behind it. He doesn't gel with Jean thus far IMO, but I don't think it goes deeper than that.

Finally, some common sense.