Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[WallStreeter]

If they pin the X-Men/mutants going back to the super-classic (read lazy and nostalgic) mansion setting on Jean, I swear to god.

Pretty sure they’re not going back to the mansion. Too many people for them to stay there.

Plus the X-Men have a cooler setting in NYC.

The mansion mainly worked when it was a secret the X-Men were based there.

[Omega_DCD]

Post

I'm too lazy atm to edit each section so I'll reply broadly.

I've done my fair share of trying to mine charitable takes from certain issues for Jean's sake, but something about this series makes me a bit critical.

I have no problem with Jean not wanting to mind wipe the Avengers, I just didn't like that she wrote Jean as not knowing what to do as an alternative. Makes Jean look I dunno, amateurish. I don't buy that she was particularly distraught, and a person who isn't the type to casually resort to mind wipes would seem even more likely to have alternatives at the ready.

Polaris said it herself, the Hatchery could be telepathically masked. In Jean's case I don't think she needed to physically be there. Her range has expanded considerably(Orchis mission)...we've seen intra-portal telepathic communication(X-Men 1)...we've even seen her communicate between dimensions (Otherworld) with Nathan before Saturnyne forcibly severed the connection. Anyway, even if she somehow couldn't cast the illusion from where they were to the Hatchery, in her search for alternatives she could have said to Lorna "Let me quickly "phone" ahead and see if there's any chance....ah..." *next page* and it still could have had the same reveal of Emma and the sunbathing illusion, but Jean would have at least looked more proactive in trying to find a solution.

[Tank]

It's telling that no one really remembers other telekinetic/telepathic characters outside of Jean. That's enough for me to rest easy.

In either case, I view Jean's connection to Krakoa (and Xavier) differently now, especially after witnessing her realize she could and would be forced to choose between fighting alongside her family, friends, and mutants as a whole, i.e., "the people," and remaining loyal to the Quiet Council. As I see it, she had already played along long enough, barely letting Beast and X-Force get away with their nefarious doings because of her loyalty, before her moral code forced her to exit that team. However, once the QC made it clear that they found the their little inner circle more important than the people they were appointed to represent and protect, she bowed out and picked her side: the people.

Furthermore, her rejection of the offer to rejoin the QC, coupled with her decision to form the new team and move away, is very telling. Krakoa never felt like her type of party, especially if you consider what she saw as her ideal - her "dream" - in X-Men: Red, so it felt good to see her step one foot out of the Krakoan empire. It felt very... her. I say all of this to both underscore that she has been depicted very much in character within the last year or so and to suggest that with Inferno on the horizon, this may be the position the writers are slowly choosing to place her in, i.e., as someone fighting against both those perpetually calling for the destruction of mutants and a mutant cult that has gone wrong.



Marvel's wiki and other pages don't even acknowledge that Hope has telepathic or telekinetic capabilities, so I honestly think it was a mistake; either that or an unstated retcon.



First, I think it's important to consider the emotional moments Jean shared with Vision and the rest of the Avengers instances before Lorna alerted her that it was "too late...to telepathically mask the place." Clearly, Jean was preoccupied with these exchanges and also didn't consider that the Avengers would be given a tour of the Hatchery. Now, one can argue that Jean should have been written to know better and multitask, but what was written was also realistic, and I don't interpret it as Jean being nerfed. (Where was Scott, by the way?)

Mind you, I am not the greatest fan of Leah; however, she was very clever in how she fashioned a moment for one of her favorite characters (Emma) while not taking anything away from and, in fact, paying respect to Jean as the First Lady and one of the premier leaders of the X-Men and Krakoa as a whole. In fact, she was rendered as if she were one of the most important members of the QC, being the one to greet the Avengers first and most impactfully, while Cyclops and Wolverine stood behind her...

As you can read on the page above, the only thing Jean refused to do was mindwipe the Avengers. This is clear, understandable, and totally in character for her, especially considering the aforementioned exchanges she shared with them just instances before. Furthermore, Emma was not written as "com[ing] up" with anything first or being willing to do something Jean was not willing to do. The only advantage Emma was shown having was already being in the Hatchery, which allowed her to "mask the place." As the next page makes clear, she did not mindwipe the Avengers.

You may ask, How did she find out the Avengers were headed there? She could have been either eavesdropping on Jean and Lorna's conversation, picked it up on her own since she wasn't preoccupied, or even alerted by the Cuckoos. She could have found out in a number of ways. In either case, I think Leah did an admirable job of not showing favoritism in this scene. Had she written Emma deciding to mindwipe them, then maybe you would have an argument. (It's also important to note that she could have just as easily excluded Jean from this miniseries completely, which is actually what I thought she was going to do.)



I think she did a little more than that. She was depicted as the heart of the X-Men and one of the most important people in Krakoa even though she no longer lives there and has no official position in its government. Also, the moment Leah gave Jean and Vision was sublime. (You have no idea how many Wanda fans have reacted positively to that hug, which they feel indicates Jean's feeling for Wanda. In fact, you may have an idea because a fan of Wanda's posted their feelings about it, and how it's made them look at Jean differently, in this very thread.)



I totally agree! I tweeted Werneck, telling him "I need you on a Jean Grey solo now." He actually quote-tweeted it with the reply, "My dream." I can tell!

Werneck's tweet: https://twitter.com/LukasWerneck/sta...01003564421126

Polaris says it perfectly and makes Leah’s intent perfectly clear: someone ELSE figured it out already. Jean, this supposedly top tier telepath didnt think to telepathically make them see something else? There has to be some other way—-well duh. She comes off as slow. It’s not even a big moral quandary. It makes her come off as slow and ineffectual. She could have made them see what she wanted, she doesnt need to be at the hatchery.

It’s such an obvious dig at Jean if not seen thru rose colored glasses. Throwing up a shield with Rachel and giving the avengers a carebear hug doesnt negate the fact that she came off as an indecisive and not very good at thinking on her feet especially when it comes to one of her main areas of expertise.

Leah’s biases showed here. It’s the same vibe from issue one different take.

[Tank]

And let’s be real, even if she was allowed to actually be quick thinking and cast the illusion in this case, im sure there would have been comment from her like “let’s get them out of the hatchery quickly, I dont know how long I can cast this illusion for.” Krak Jean isnt allowed to be cool and effective without a counter point.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Can we talk about how implanting fake thoughts of seeing something that's not there and removing memories of seeing something is essentially the same thing?

The intended result was there regardless:

Damsel Jean, panicking and being useless, while someone else actually tries, in this case successfully, to be useful.

I hope this era spawns a few reactionary future Jean writers that grow up wanting to compensate for this era by making her hyper-competent and powerful when they get their turn lol

[Tank]

Can we talk about how implanting fake thoughts of seeing something that's not there and removing memories of seeing something is essentially the same thing?

The intended result was there regardless:

Damsel Jean, panicking and being useless, while someone else actually tries, in this case successfully, to be useful.

I hope this era spawns a few reactionary future Jean writers that grow up wanting to compensate for this era by making her hyper-competent and powerful when they get their turn lol

The last time I felt good about the character was New X-Men and Teen Jean. Ever since she came back from xmen red on, she’s felt a little too neutered and watered down. Too pacifist. It’s all bark and not bite, and so passive/passe. I want her fire and spunk back. New x-men/Teen Jean was everything this Jean isnt and was so much more entertaining because of it.

Only glimpse of a fully rounded Jean was maybe Percy’s Jean’s temper, but that was shortlived and ultimately krak Jean quit cuz she’s too soft. Jean in xforce was interesting because I wanted to see her pushed and have to make tough decisions. She barely got to do that.

I swear this Marvel Girl persona and costume set her back decades not in terms of just looks and name but her characterization as well. Too tame, too safe, too boring. Maybe she did have X wipe her back to a less complicated, more malleable version. It’s the only thing my headcanon can use to explain why she feels so off.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The last time I felt good about the character was New X-Men and Teen Jean. Ever since she came back from xmen red on, she’s felt a little too neutered and watered down. Too pacifist. It’s all bark and not bite, and so passive/passe. I want her fire and spunk back. New x-men/Teen Jean was everything this Jean isnt and was so much more entertaining because of it.

Only glimpse of a fully rounded Jean was maybe Percy’s Jean’s temper, but that was shortlived and ultimately krak Jean quit cuz she’s too soft. Jean in xforce was interesting because I wanted to see her pushed and have to make tough decisions.

I've been trying to will a new Dennis Hopeless Adult Jean book into existence. Ghost Jeannie may have been a bit of a meanie, but at least she recognized when a mission was at hand. Lol

[WallStreeter]

Can we talk about how implanting fake thoughts of seeing something that's not there and removing memories of seeing something is essentially the same thing?

The intended result was there regardless:

Damsel Jean, panicking and being useless, while someone else actually tries, in this case successfully, to be useful.

I hope this era spawns a few reactionary future Jean writers that grow up wanting to compensate for this era by making her hyper-competent and powerful when they get their turn lol

The White Queen is evil, and the Cuckoos are based on the Midwich Cuckoos/Village of the Damned. Jean was not the one to commit an evil act, Emma was.

Mind control is ultimately evil. Good thing Jean doesn’t like to do it.

Just because someone can do something doesn’t mean someone should do something.

[Tank]

The White Queen is evil, and the Cuckoos are based on the Midwich Cuckoos/Village of the Damned. Jean was not the one to commit an evil act, Emma was.

Mind control is ultimately evil. Good thing Jean doesn’t like to do it.

Just because someone can do something doesn’t mean someone should do something.

It’s not evil if she is ultimately protecting the greater good/what she believes in. Jean has casted illusions, telepathically frozen people and mind wiped others before in order to defend or protect what she believes in. Hell new xmen Jean was willing mindwipe reporters due to Emma’s outburst. She knows what is at stake and is willing to take the steps to protect.

It’s the very nature of her powers and doesnt make her evil to use her powers effectively. When she is indecisive/slow like in this issue she comes off as a noob.

[jmc247]

The White Queen is evil, and the Cuckoos are based on the Midwich Cuckoos/Village of the Damned. Jean was not the one to commit an evil act, Emma was.

Mind control is ultimately evil. Good thing Jean doesn’t like to do it.

Just because someone can do something doesn’t mean someone should do something.

Jean is supposed to be Xavier’s greatest student and hold to the highest of ethics. In terms of Emma I would more or less say she is amoral not evil.

The issue that Tank has is the functionally amoral character often comes off sleek and quick to their feat. The moral character comes off slow and emotionally constipated. I felt the scene was better then many of its kind for the moral character because Jean wasn’t overly emotionally constipated.

In this case Jean was sandwiched between two ends justify the means characters.

[Tank]

And to add I dont have a problem with Jean not jumping to a mind wipe as the first option, but she’s experienced enough to know an illusion would have achieved the same result.

Heck Lorna suggested it when talking about Hope. So if Jean’s not even willing to do an illusion/cloak (which to me is less intrusive than a mind wipe) to protect her nation, what good is she? She comes off really bad in this issue because of this. Especially since it also flies in the face of her past characterization where she has mind wiped, manipulated memories, and even rewrote entire personas, etc to protect what she believes in.

Jean is not this perfect saint of a character and it’s disservice to the character portray her as such.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The White Queen is evil, and the Cuckoos are based on the Midwich Cuckoos/Village of the Damned. Jean was not the one to commit an evil act, Emma was.

Mind control is ultimately evil. Good thing Jean doesn’t like to do it.

Just because someone can do something doesn’t mean someone should do something.

Let's look at this both functionally and as if the characters are actual people.

Is every story with a slightly tenuous and tense situation going to work out well just because Jean says "there has to be another way"?

Or do they just not use this character in any challenging stories?

Is a real person going to look at revealing the only secret that keeps them safe and say that her personal pride is more important than that?

Do they just take stories where Emma isn't conveniently there to save the day off the table for Jean?

Good characters are more nuanced than "she's so nice that the story just goes her way".

Let's take away the idea that nothing bad can happen because Jean is a happy character. Let's say that the Avengers are very altruistic and faithful toward mutants and don't intentionally reveal mutantkind's secret. What about accidents? That information accidentally getting to the wrong hands? Now that secret is out and it's essentially Jean's fault for not doing what needed to be done. Now that COULD be a good story in itself - Jean paying a high personal cost for exaggerated high-mindedness - but that's not what's happening here.

Jean with this Saturday Morning Superman Cartoon hubris doesn't ring as true and actually isn't all that heroic. This goes back to her looking the other way when she knows about X-Force. It's not cute. It's not superheroic. It's just people being super precious about the Saint Jean thing.

It's like she and Beast are at opposing cartoonish extremes right now. Where is the nuance?

[Spiderfan001]

1)Leah is writing, ofc Emma>Jean will be there.

2)This is the same writer who think Avengers are dumb enough to walk into a country filled w/ telepaths and having had a murder of an Avenger and having clear motive for w/out Psi-dampners even though they have them.Ik most X-fans hate or don't care about Avengers buy having read both this is beyond stupid and OOC.Tony even wore them to the Gala, and TP doesn't work on AI and Tech like Tony's.

[Spiderfan001]

Is every story with a slightly tenuous and tense situation going to work out well just because Jean says "there has to be another way"?

Or do they just not use this character in any challenging stories?

That question is what Krakoa lacks, I'd rather Jean question everything saying there has to be a better way than the other way around.

[Tank]

1)Leah is writing, ofc Emma>Jean will be there.

2)This is the same writer who think Avengers are dumb enough to walk into a country filled w/ telepaths and having had a murder of an Avenger and having clear motive for w/out Psi-dampners even though they have them.Ik most X-fans hate or don't care about Avengers buy having read both this is beyond stupid and OOC.Tony even wore them to the Gala, and TP doesn't work on AI and Tech like Tony's.

True true. Not to mention if they didnt want to show the Avengers the hatchery, dont walk them through there! Amazing concept right? But it was ignored for the sake of some stupid exchanges.