Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Grinning Soul]

I doubt Stan Lee wrote Iceman as gay, but didn't he basically say it was fine when it happened? That future creators were free to do what they wanted or something like that? I don't expect him to have been an ally in the 60's, but a lot of old people change/evolve their values along with society, not everyone sticks with the same thoughts their whole life. I don't think he was a homophobe or anything.

(have no idea how this discussion came along lol)

Because of one line Bobby said in the first issue. Regardless of how Stan felt about writing a gay character, I find it really hard he intended it this way because of the scrutiny on the comics since 1954.

Is it possible he intended it? Yes. Is it likely? No.

"Seduction of the Innocent is a book by German-born American psychiatrist Fredric Wertham, published in 1954, that warned that comic books were a negative form of popular literature and a serious cause of juvenile delinquency. The book was taken seriously at the time in the United States, and was a minor bestseller that created alarm in American parents and galvanized them to campaign for censorship. At the same time, a U.S. Congressional inquiry was launched into the comic book industry. Subsequent to the publication of Seduction of the Innocent, the Comics Code Authority was voluntarily established by publishers to self-censor their titles. In the decades since the book's publication, Wertham's research has been disputed by scholars."

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent


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EDIT: Before anyone jumps on me, some posts ago, I've already written that, nowadays, you can interpret it differently then what Stan *probably* intended to write. And I'm *not* suggesting they should retcon Bobby back into the closet either. I'm merely saying that I don't think Stan intended any subtext back then. That's all.

[Phoenixx9]

Because of one line Bobby said in the first issue. Regardless of how Stan felt about writing a gay character, I find it really hard he intended it this way because of the scrutiny on the comics since 1954.

Is it possible he intended it? Yes. Is it likely? No.

"Seduction of the Innocent is a book by German-born American psychiatrist Fredric Wertham, published in 1954, that warned that comic books were a negative form of popular literature and a serious cause of juvenile delinquency. The book was taken seriously at the time in the United States, and was a minor bestseller that created alarm in American parents and galvanized them to campaign for censorship. At the same time, a U.S. Congressional inquiry was launched into the comic book industry. Subsequent to the publication of Seduction of the Innocent, the Comics Code Authority was voluntarily established by publishers to self-censor their titles. In the decades since the book's publication, Wertham's research has been disputed by scholars."

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent


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EDIT: Before anyone jumps on me, some posts ago, I've already written that, nowadays, you can interpret it differently then what Stan *probably* intended to write. And I'm *not* suggesting they should retcon Bobby back into the closet either. I'm merely saying that I don't think Stan intended any subtext back then. That's all.

Exactly. Well stated.

Let's get back to Jean in this Jean thread, lol.

[Grinning Soul]

Exactly. Well stated. :)

Let's get back to Jean in this Jean thread, lol.

Yes, please! :)

[Mercury]

Artist Nickolej Villiger was nice enough to share a private commission of Sara they completed. [I miss Sara! 😢]



From Bizarre Adventures #27 (1981):

[Phoenixx9]

I always loved how tough Jean was standing up to Attuma.

[WallStreeter]

Frankly, I think it is presumptuous to assume otherwise, i.e., that Lee was not so open-minded. We don't know much about his personal life and whether he had friends or associates that were gay. Furthermore, we don't even know if he himself was gay. There have been plenty of closeted gay and bisexual men with wives and children who remained/remain in the closet. (I know from personal experience with some of these men.) I mean, if we are going to apply logic to this discourse, let's be logical.

I doubt we will ever know the intentions of Stan Lee, and they really are not important at this point.

I do think it’s significant that Iceman came it of the closet and bécame officially gay. That’s wonderful.

But Bobby’s sixties portrayal? Anything but..

After awhile his relationships with women didn’t work out well, and her has relationships with Cloud and Mystique, both of whom can turn themselves into men. That certainly was suggestive of what Bobby really wanted in the bedroom (to be a bottom).

The most important thing is society changed enough for major superheroes to be openly gay.

[Peanutsinspace]

I included the scenes from Winter's End because so many people always scream about how horrible Jeen was for outing Bobby and how (in some people's opinions) it made her an irredeemable character. I liked that we got to see adult Jean and Bobby address it, see how Bobby felt about it/Jean and that ultimately, they were good. I think the issue shows that Jean cares deeply for Bobby and the thought that she hurt him bothered her. I thought it was touching and a nice addition to their relationship, which we don't get to see much of.

[Mercury]

After awhile his relationships with women didn’t work out well, and her has relationships with Cloud and Mystique, both of whom can turn themselves into men. That certainly was suggestive of what Bobby really wanted in the bedroom (to be a bottom).

Oh hell no. You did not just go there. 😂🤣😂🤣😂 Are you a man and a top?

Signed,

A Bottom!

(I’ll respond later because I’m in the middle of an insane report!)

[Mercury]

I simply couldn’t resist posting this wild, inspired design. By @saintsanti51 on Twitter:

[WallStreeter]

I simply couldn’t resist posting this wild, inspired design. By @saintsanti51 on Twitter:

She should have worn that at the Gala! Or now! The heels are too high. Other than that she should wear tgus for her costume. Much better lolimong than the one she has. I think
More good stuff with Hickman is coming soon.

[Saturius]

I simply couldn’t resist posting this wild, inspired design. By @saintsanti51 on Twitter:

The Phoenix mask is my favorite thing about this! What a cool design. The flame accessories are a nice touch, too. Very creative.

[Mercury]

She should have worn that at the Gala! Or now! The heels are too high. Other than that she should wear tgus for her costume. Much better lolimong than the one she has. I think
More good stuff with Hickman is coming soon.

I love Dauterman's design, though. Also, you're suggesting she wear it as a costume?

The Phoenix mask is my favorite thing about this! What a cool design. The flame accessories are a nice touch, too. Very creative.

It really is cool and extremely creative. I love the accessories, i.e., the gloves, heels, headpiece, and jewelry.

[Subliminally]

I simply couldn’t resist posting this wild, inspired design. By @saintsanti51 on Twitter:

This is freaking epic!

[Subliminally]

She should have worn that at the Gala! Or now! The heels are too high. Other than that she should wear tgus for her costume. Much better lolimong than the one she has. I think
More good stuff with Hickman is coming soon.

See I feel like if Jean felt like her feet hurt from the heels then she'd just use her powers to "walk" as in just having a slight hover. But on the other hand I think there's a version of Dr. Schholz but with Krakoan tech that makes any heel feel like walking on a cloud.

[Mercury]

…I think there's a version of Dr. Schholz but with Krakoan tech that makes any heel feel like walking on a cloud.

This is the cutest thing I’ve read today, lol. Thanks for making me giggle and smile 😅