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  1. #6091
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I know, right? Jean progressed so well only to be hampered by others. Look at how easily Jean handled each of those things.

    But Yes Indeed to Jean's early powerful TK as a Teen!

    I liked the original look of her TK powers as shown here and then also the newer full color depiction when she got captured by the Sentinels. There, her entire body lit up with orange and I think green/blue colors. Jean even mentions there how much more powerful her TK has grown through the intervening years.
    At least we have history on our side when it comes to proving that Jean has always been powerful.

    Also, Neal Adams and Dave Cockrum are the artists that really reinvented her power signature. They did a fabulous job. Their renderings of her power are still my favorite and you can see their inspiration in many artists, especially Jim Lee's depiction of Jean's power.





    Last edited by Mercury; 08-01-2021 at 01:47 AM. Reason: grammar

  2. #6092
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    I like how the "Wanda" Jean had power displays coming out of her hands as well as an aura around her head!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  3. #6093
    Spectacular Member Starchilde's Avatar
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    I always found funny how in some issues (prior to Phoenix) her friends used to said "she was the weakest member of the X-Men" when she was clearly more powerful than her teammates. I don't know if it was intetional to show how people subestimated her, or not.

    PS: Thanks everyone for the welcoming messages!

  4. #6094
    Fantastic Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    It seems like gaslighting both in and out of universe. She's lifted Juggernaut twice, and hurt him telepathically through his helmet, she snatched Angel out of the sky and pinned him down, she hurt Mesmero and broke his hold on Iceman, she's knocked down several Sentinels...she took down the friggin' Hulk telepathically

    And when Cyclops thought he was being tough by yelling at Jean "Nobody says "No" to Cyclops", Jean just basically says that's cute, lifts him aside and holds him and the rest of the team at bay.

    Weakest? Bah!
    Last edited by Omega_DCD; 07-31-2021 at 08:45 PM.

  5. #6095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    Welcome to the Jean Grey/Phoenix appreciation thread Starchilde! Hope you survive the experience Sorry, I had to, lol

    Anyway I definitely echo your wishes and concerns about Jean being connected or involved in some way with more cosmic elements, especially the White Hot Room/Mysterium development in S.W.O.R.D....especially because of my own personal wish that some writer would play up Jean's innate connection to the M'Kraan Crystal/WHR that supercedes her (now severed) connection to the Phoenix. Maybe given the "warning" Doom just gave to Storm, Jean may have to resolve something...but I doubt it. This era seems to want to ignore huge swaths of Jean's history
    Yet she’s on the main team of X-Men again and boy do they have huge cosmic threats now. It seems like this stuff is being written for Phase 5 MCU. I think once again Jean will be Phoenix, as the X-Men now have magical and cosmic threats from all quarters.

    I know some of you don’t want to look her recent shutdown of Stryce, eco was definitely an omega mutant in the 1990s. But just see giving her actual action outside of X-Force and Wi-fi has been sent back to the future means definitely changes in how they are going to use her moving forward. She had already raised Nathan once, no need to do so again.

  6. #6096
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    I always found funny how in some issues (prior to Phoenix) her friends used to said "she was the weakest member of the X-Men" when she was clearly more powerful than her teammates. I don't know if it was intetional to show how people subestimated her, or not.
    Jean was never referred to as the weakest member of the X-Men until after she became Phoenix. It was in Uncanny X-Men #105 when Scott thought to himself, "My...God, Jean used to be the weakest X-Man. Now she powers up an interstellar transporter without batting an eyelash..." Ironically, it was Chris Claremont, who deserves much credit for her character development, spotlighting her capabilities, and making her central to one of the most iconic comic book storylines, that wrote this. It was the first instance in which she was referred to as "the weakest" member, which is comical if you objectively compare her abilities to the rest of the team. In fact, I would argue that she was the strongest member of the original team. The only teammate of the original five that is near her level is Iceman.



    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    It seems like gaslighting both in and out of universe. She's lifted Juggernaut twice, and hurt him telepathically through his helmet, she snatched Angel out of the sky and pinned him down, she hurt Mesmero and broke his hold on Iceman, she's knocked down several Sentinels...she took down the friggin' Hulk telepathically

    And when Cyclops thought he was being tough by yelling at Jean "Nobody says "No" to Cyclops", Jean just basically says that's cute, lifts [Cyclops] aside and holds him and the rest of the team at bay.

    Weakest? Bah!
    I love that you brought up all of these instances, which I have included in my #JeanGreyFeats thread covering the first 137 issues of Uncanny X-Men (thread: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...79233021689865). She was also able to stop Quicksilver mid-run twice, overwhelm Scarlet Witch, disassemble and reassemble a rifle in seconds, telepathically coordinate the team, probe Professor X's mind, take on Magneto by herself, animate a group of Iceman's "ice mannequins," and use Cerebro on her own. She was also described as having "infinite mental powers" by a Cybertron robot.





    I think it's fitting that they wrote time-displaced Jean as strong and formidable, which lines up nicely with how Jean was originally depicted in the first run of Uncanny X-Men.

    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Yet she’s on the main team of X-Men again and boy do they have huge cosmic threats now. It seems like this stuff is being written for Phase 5 MCU. I think once again Jean will be Phoenix, as the X-Men now have magical and cosmic threats from all quarters.

    I know some of you don’t want to look her recent shutdown of Stryce, eco was definitely an omega mutant in the 1990s. But just see giving her actual action outside of X-Force and Wi-fi has been sent back to the future means definitely changes in how they are going to use her moving forward. She had already raised Nathan once, no need to do so again.
    I've admitted this before on here but I'll say it again: If they do reintroduce Jean's bond with the Phoenix Force, I hope they do so much like Steven Seagle and Grant Morrison did, which was to make it an inseparable part of her. Otherwise, I would rather they focus on her power development separate and apart from the P.F. It would be great if they reclassified her as an Omega Telekinetic. It would be even better, and more accurate, considering her history, if they simply classified her as an Omega Psi, which would encompass both her telepathy and telekinesis, along with other psionic capabilities.
    Last edited by Mercury; 08-01-2021 at 01:43 AM.

  7. #6097
    Fantastic Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Some time ago I came across this bio from a marvel game with Jean/Phoenix and I thought it was one of the better descriptions of their connection. Unique, innate, and tied to Jean's mutation.


  8. #6098
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    Some time ago I came across this bio from a marvel game with Jean/Phoenix and I thought it was one of the better descriptions of their connection. Unique, innate, and tied to Jean's mutation.

    Yes, this certainly is a different and unique take.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  9. #6099
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    I am geeking out. Okay, so, while reading Fantastic Four #286, which I have heard lots about but never read, Reed Richards confirms that Jean "imbued the Phoenix with the essence of herself - mentality, spirit, even her soul - while, simultaneously, her original body was healing within the cocoon!"

    Later, Sue Richards says to Jean, "Yes, your inner self could not be suppressed once the Phoenix had taken it on. You gave it your humanity, Jean. You gave it a soul."

    Captain America adds, "And, in the last moments, as it hovered between light and darkness, up there on the moon, that's what made the difference. Because no force in the universe can suppress the splendor of the human spirit. And it was that spirit, even in duplicate form, that was enough to defeat the evil power of the Phoenix."

    Now, Captain America's assertions that the Phoenix Force's power is "evil" and that it duplicated Jean's spirit should be considered both impossible and erroneous. However, it is precisely here that I feel the story behind why the Phoenix went "dark" should be clarified and connected to the violations perpetrated on Jean by Mesmero, Mastermind, and the White Queen. As I wrote in a previous post on this thread:

    Jean Grey transcended the physical plane when she used the totality of her psionic power to pilot a doomed space shuttle containing her and the rest of the X-Men. As she shielded herself and the shuttle from cosmic radiation, her sheer force of will enkindled the manifestation of the near-full capacity of her telepathic and telekinetic abilities. In her supreme exertion, she became pure psionic energy. Resultingly, her essence began to transcend her physical form and the material plane as a whole, causing her body to wither due to the radiation that pummeled it. Unprepared for such a shift in perspective and consciousness and witnessing her body wilt, she let out a reverberating psychic cry. Already familiar with Jean since her prepubescence, her bellow, coupled with her sheer psionic power and purity of heart, soul, and intent, compelled the Phoenix Force to come to her aid, protecting her body and essence from both the ravages of radiation and her own unbridled power. It fashioned a new body for her, placing her old body in a cocoon and fusing her essence with the clone, which the Phoenix Force also inhabited to stabilize and reinforce the binding. Thus, the union between Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force was complete.

    However, it was a union the Phoenix Force intended to sustain only through the duration of Jean’s psychic and physical rehabilitation and gradual adjustment to her quickened power advancement. Later, when Mesmero hypnotized her and Mastermind, with the help of the White Queen, penetrated her mind, it was the Phoenix Force that prevented either of their powers from taking complete control of Jean’s psyche. Unfortunately, still reeling from her experience on the shuttle, Jean was further traumatized by the aforementioned psychic violations perpetrated against her and the insidious interruption of her healing. Additionally, incited by Jean’s pain and trauma and the abusive behavior she was subjected to, the Phoenix Force's destructive side, i.e., one aspect of its raison d'ętre – to burn away the defective and obsolete – was initiated. Although Jean fought to repress both, her trauma and the Phoenix Force’s instinctive destructiveness overwhelmed her. Jean's pain soon turned to rage, which merged with the Phoenix Force's wrath, resulting in a primal fury that became addictive in its search for recompense and sanctification.

    Later, to protect both her friends and the cosmos at large, Jean killed herself in the Blue Area of the Moon. In that instant, Jean’s mind, heart, and soul synchronized and revolted against both her own trauma-induced rage and addiction and the Phoenix Force’s wrathful reflex to destroy what it deemed flawed and deficient, killing the clone it had created for her. But, recognizing the selfless, courageous, and transcendent nature of what Jean had done for a second time, the Phoenix Force chose to preserve her essence, returning it to her former body, which lay encased in the cocoon it had created at the bottom of Jamaica Bay. Furthermore, the Phoenix Force imparted a fragment of itself to Jean so that she could continue to heal more rapidly than she would on her own. Since then, it has attempted on various occasions to unite with her once more. But Jean, not having fully faced and healed from the trauma she endured either on the shuttle, at the hands of sadists, and when possessed by the Phoenix Force’s darkest facet, has chosen to reject it on most occasions.
    Tying together all of the loose ends as I have above does not diminish Jean's innate power or connection to the Phoenix Force but strengthens both. Anyway, forgive me for my fervor; I am a total Jean geek. I would love to read what you all think.

    Also, for those interested, I have started a second Twitter thread replete with screenshots of important panels and pages, which covers Jean's return six years after the events of the Dark Phoenix Saga and will cover her run on X-Factor.

    Link: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...32583046991872

    Here are the pages from Fantastic Four I reference above:



    Last edited by Mercury; 08-01-2021 at 07:07 AM.

  10. #6100
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Yes, I have read that story many times and it was well done.

    I think what Cap really meant here with the "Evil" was the Dark Phoenix part, not The Phoenix part. Even when Jean first transformed into Dark Phoenix at the end of the Hellfire CLub Saga, she calls herself Phoenix while being dressed as and having transformed into DP.

    What people do not understand, they fear. What they fear, they call evil and seek to destroy. Even heroes like Cap and Iron Man seem to want powers themselves, but have little trust in when others have power. Especially great power. The Phoenix is one of the mightiest powers to exist.

    And what people always overlook is what Jean as Phoenix and as DP stated: "Now and Forever, I am Phoenix!" Forever did not mean a few months or years, forever is forever.

    Jean will always be Phoenix (to me!).
    Last edited by Phoenixx9; 08-01-2021 at 07:22 AM.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  11. #6101
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    Some time ago I came across this bio from a marvel game with Jean/Phoenix and I thought it was one of the better descriptions of their connection. Unique, innate, and tied to Jean's mutation.

    I saw this after posting my latest reply. This would be another interesting direction to take her connection to the Phoenix Force!

  12. #6102
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I think what Cap really meant here with the "Evil" was the Dark Phoenix part, not The Phoenix part...
    I believe the writers were initially tempted to classify the Phoenix Force as evil in service of the retcon. However, it seems they backed up on that quickly. Part of the confusion surrounding why the Phoenix went dark is due to a lack of focus on and clarification of the violations Mesmero, Mastermind, and White Queen perpetrated against Jean. These violations are vital to understanding Dark Phoenix's emergence without just chalking it up to the trope of a woman being unable to handle great power or claiming that Jean was tapping into her "dark side." Quite frankly, both assertions are too simplistic and rather insulting.

    It is clear that Jean's psyche and soul were distressed, traumatized, and in pain. The Phoenix Force's innate destructive side was triggered by this. I love that Ororo recognized this clearly.




  13. #6103
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    The Phoenix Force is not evil.

    Phoenix is not evil.

    Dark Phoenix is evil, but DP is only a twisted Phoenix incarnation, achievable only by being evil oneself or having dark desires unleashed such as in Jean's case by White Queen, Mastermind and the Hellfire Club members.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  14. #6104
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Dark Phoenix is evil, but DP is only a twisted Phoenix incarnation, achievable only by having dark desires unleashed such as Jean was by White Queen, Mastermind and the Hellfire CLub members.
    I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to the notion that Jean's "dark desires" were "unleashed." I know Claremont wrote this in one of the pages, which bothers me. I think she was seduced by being loved and showered with attention by Mastermind, but, ultimately, she was violated by having her psyche penetrated and manipulated with lies and illusions. Claiming her "dark desires" were awakened by such violations is like claiming a woman who was drugged and raped, but showed signs of enjoying the sexual act perpetrated on her, had her "dark desires" awakened. (I'm not saying you're doing this, Phoenixx9; I know you're just going by what was written. It just doesn't sit well with me. It's sort of how some people claim Logan has abused Jean when he has kissed her forcefully, even when she's indicated in thought bubbles that she has liked it.)

    I don't see the Dark Phoenix as evil as much as the manifestation of the combined rage and wrath of Jean and the Phoenix Force, both railing against what was done to her. Again, the page and panel I posted above highlight this the best.

  15. #6105
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    So you are choosing to not give any credence to what the writer says in-story? That your personal belief is the real and absolute truth?
    Then why should you give any credence to what he wrote entirely. You really can't pick and choose what to believe as canon especially when it's stated clearly and plainly on the page by the writer himself.
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