Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Mercury]

Then again, to Lee, the X-Men were a metaphor for the Civil Rights Movement, which was not necessarily popular nor unanimously accepted or supported at the time. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that he was also covertly championing other minorities and groups. Food for thought.

https://www.history.com/news/stan-le...ts-inspiration

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/256...e-x-men-comics

[jwatson]

Then again, to Lee, the X-Men were a metaphor for the Civil Rights Movement, which was not necessarily popular nor unanimously accepted or supported at the time. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that he was also covertly championing other minorities and groups. Food for thought.

https://www.history.com/news/stan-le...ts-inspiration

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/256...e-x-men-comics

There is also an old rolling stone article i have posted in the past but some imply lee wasn't being honest. Not sure why though.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture...erview-754889/

[Mercury]

There is also an old rolling stone article i have posted in the past but some imply lee wasn't being honest. Not sure why though.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture...erview-754889/

I was going to post that one! Also, lying about what?

[Spiderfan001]

Yeah. Stan Lee was writing subtext in the 60s! (going to have to cut these because it won't let me post...)

Back then, I'd say that he either intended to display Bobby as the youngest who still don't get why girls are so interesting or, more likely, he thought he'd have no chance with her against the older boys who were all clearly interested in her.

Now, knowing what was revealed later, you can read it as genuine lack of interest because of his orientation. But in that case, I think he'd have thought of it, instead of saying it out loud.

Agreed 100%.
The 2 reasons you give are plausible and it would make much more sense to think that rather than say it out loud.
Moreover Knowing Bobby he would probably overact to cover this and act more interested in her.Like he did w/Magik.

Oh, I agree that this "proves nothing." Neither does "talking about shopping," which to me is a qualifier used to assume that a man is gay that reveals more ignorance. Not all gay men enjoy shopping. I certainly don't. Also, it's obvious that Bobby not showing interest in Jean was meant to be attributed to his age more than anything else, seeing as he was the youngest X-Man at that point. Still, as you noted, the fact that he has been revealed to be gay does allow for this moment to be interpreted as indicative of that, which, to me, is wonderful.

Warren and Hank were the most overt about their attraction to and affection for Jean. Scott is always depicted thinking about Jean, while Bobby is, well, Bobby, though he does marvel at her at times.

No, I meant after the coffee and shopping bit where he says "I only came along because.... well... you know... right? ".I think that was good subtext.Can't really misinterpret it as something else IMO.

Yes well... not a surprise, she is Jean XD.Thanks nonetheless.

But that's the problem with the subtext argument. Very rarely we know what the writer actually intended, so it's almost always just a possible interpretation. Heterosexual writers might write stuff thinking it's completely innocent because they just don't see it, you know?

I think it's safe to assume Stan didn't intend it that way. Back then, he'd have probably re-written it if it had crossed his mind it could be interpreted like that. After the publication of "Seduction of the Innocent" in 1954, comics were under heavy scrutiny.

Another great point, I guess most of the time they could write stuff that seems w/out any subtext to them but people w/ more experience who can relate may pick up on them.

[jwatson]

I was going to post that one! Also, lying about what?

they were implying he was trying to be PC by saying he thought about the civil rights movement when he created the xmen and was basically trying to capitalize on it and that they disagreed that his intent with the xmen was for it to have any sort of connection to the civil rights movement.

[Grinning Soul]

Then again, to Lee, the X-Men were a metaphor for the Civil Rights Movement, which was not necessarily popular nor unanimously accepted or supported at the time. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that he was also covertly championing other minorities and groups. Food for thought.

https://www.history.com/news/stan-le...ts-inspiration

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/256...e-x-men-comics

Hard to say, but probably not. Society was horribly prejudicious. Even psychiatry (the authority figure in mental health) considered any non-heterosexual orientation as deviations if not outright mental diseases.

I'm happy things have evolved way passed that, of course. But it would be really unfair to expect that level of open-mindedness from Stan in the 60s. The X-Men was first published 10 years before the DSM removed the diagnosis of "homosexuality" from the 1973 version, after all. :(

[Mercury]

But it would be really unfair to expect that level of open-mindedness from Stan in the 60s. The X-Men was first published 10 years before the DSM removed the diagnosis of "homosexuality" from the 1973 version, after all.

Frankly, I think it is presumptuous to assume otherwise, i.e., that Lee was not so open-minded. We don't know much about his personal life and whether he had friends or associates that were gay. Furthermore, we don't even know if he himself was gay. There have been plenty of closeted gay and bisexual men with wives and children who remained/remain in the closet. (I know from personal experience with some of these men.) I mean, if we are going to apply logic to this discourse, let's be logical.

[Mercury]

they were implying he was trying to be PC by saying he thought about the civil rights movement when he created the xmen and was basically trying to capitalize on it and that they disagreed that his intent with the xmen was for it to have any sort of connection to the civil rights movement.

Thanks for answering my question.

[Phoenixx9]

Hard to say, but probably not. Society was horribly prejudicious. Even psychiatry (the authority figure in mental health) considered any non-heterosexual orientation as deviations if not outright mental diseases.

I'm happy things have evolved way passed that, of course. But it would be really unfair to expect that level of open-mindedness from Stan in the 60s. The X-Men was first published 10 years before the DSM removed the diagnosis of "homosexuality" from the 1973 version, after all.

Yet for decades after the removal in the DSM, professionals still considered and treated people as if they had a diagnosed mental condition.

[Grinning Soul]

Frankly, I think it is presumptuous to assume otherwise, i.e., that Lee was not so open-minded. We don't know much about his personal life and whether he had friends or associates that were gay. Furthermore, we don't even know if he himself was gay. There have been plenty of men with wives and children who were/are gay and in the closet. (I know from personal experience with some of these men.) I mean, if we are going to apply logic to this discourse, let's be logical.

That's why I said "probably".

[Grinning Soul]

Yet for decades after the removal in the DSM, professionals still considered and treated people as if they had a diagnosed mental condition.

Yeah. Because prejudice is really hard to eliminate. :(

[Mercury]

That's why I said "probably".

Touché....

[Mercury]

ScreenRant doesn't officially acknowledge her excellent leadership during X-Men: Red, which is a crime, but I’ll take what I can get! Published yesterday:

X-Men: Ranking All The Team Leaders By Leadership

The X-Men have gone through different leaders over the years, and each of them brought new tactics to the team. Here are the best of the leaders.

https://screenrant.com/x-men-team-le...by-leadership/

[PwrdOn]

Hard to say, but probably not. Society was horribly prejudicious. Even psychiatry (the authority figure in mental health) considered any non-heterosexual orientation as deviations if not outright mental diseases.

I'm happy things have evolved way passed that, of course. But it would be really unfair to expect that level of open-mindedness from Stan in the 60s. The X-Men was first published 10 years before the DSM removed the diagnosis of "homosexuality" from the 1973 version, after all.

Even if homosexuality was illegal, gay people still existed at the time. And there were certainly patterns of behavior that people exhibited that we today would immediately identify as that of a closeted gay man, but that contemporaries would not be able to pick up on. So it's entirely plausible that Stan Lee wrote Iceman as gay without even realizing it.

[Wiccan]

I doubt Stan Lee wrote Iceman as gay, but didn't he basically say it was fine when it happened? That future creators were free to do what they wanted or something like that? I don't expect him to have been an ally in the 60's, but a lot of old people change/evolve their values along with society, not everyone sticks with the same thoughts their whole life. I don't think he was a homophobe or anything.

(have no idea how this discussion came along lol)