Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Mercury]

I agree with this a lot. I liked Red, but it was almost like Taylor was afraid to show Jean making a mistake of some kind. I think current Jean benifited a lot from Teen Jean's stay in the present because as a younger version she was allowed to be messy, and rash and do things that perplexed us sometimes (Like, the Beast fling). I like how her outing Bobby led to him confronting her as an adult later and things like that.

All this.Red was playing her like a perfect person when she's not.No one is.

I LOVE Red, but sort of agree with both of you. They didn't highlight her assertiveness enough and the stakes didn't feel high. Nonetheless, as Grinning Soul pointed out, the positives outweigh the negatives. I loved that she headlined an arc that showcased her as a competent, grounded leader. I really wish that title had continued, or that they would create a variation of it for this era.

[xhx23x]

The thing is though, whenever Jean does anything wrong it gets magnified to almost be a character defining trait, such as how she treated Maddie or Rachel, or more recently the Iceman thing, and it ends up weighing her down a lot more than it really helps to develop her character. Too often the notion of a "flawed" character ends up just turning into some violent psychopath who gets to all sorts of immoral but cool stuff without any fear of consequence, yet somehow remains a hero purely through writer fiat, think Wolverine or Cyclops at their worst. Jean should always be portrayed as someone who is a fundamentally good person and tries her best to live up to this lofty ideal, she is going to overstep her boundaries from time to time, but having her do flat out evil **** out of the blue isn't the best way to make her flawed. The real problem with "perfect" characters is that they tend to turn into an author mouthpiece prone to lecturing others, which can be particularly egregious if the author's idea of right and wrong tends to conflict with the audience's, and Jean doesn't really slip into that mode too often.

You can say that about any character though. You can't really control how some people will take any piece of writing. My point with Teen Jean is that she was allowed to make mistakes and we could understand given her circustances (She was a 16 year old tricked into going to a future where she's dead and is either considered Saint-like or a cautionary tale). But with adult Jean they tend to thread a little more carefully, to the point where she often can be missinterpreted as just being too perfect through a superficial reading. It should be a balance that I think is still being found. I think that since Jean proper has only been back for a few years, and a lead in a book only like twice, maybe 3 times if we count Dissambled, they're still trying to define how to properly handle her in the current era.

That's a good question to ask here, now that I think about it. What do Jean fans want out of a modern Jean Grey? What traits would you keep or have added? What stories do you think she should get now? What do you guys expect her role to be in X-Men and what do you wish it to be?

I LOVE Red, but sort of agree with both of you. They didn't highlight her assertiveness enough and the stakes didn't feel high. Nonetheless, as Grinning Soul pointed out, the positives outweigh the negatives. I loved that she headlined an arc that showcased her as a competent, grounded leader. I really wish that title had continued, or that they would create a variation of it for this era.

Tom Taylor always gets done dirty. I see a lot of people argue that his runs are kinda bland, but he's never given that much time to flesh it out for the most part. I liked his work on Laura's Wolverine and his Suicide Squad.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Modern Jean Grey should be old enough to be in-the-know of major X-Men AND mutant business. Temperamental, demonstrative, and maybe a bit pushy when she feels something isn't the way it should be, but usually very nice. She should be allowed to exist in stories that aren't just black and white, and be put in situations that test her decision-making and resolve to do what is best.

She should be a calm creature capable of the most terrifying rage.

She should be a fun 20-something that doesn't have teenage "kids".

We already had a pretty modern Jean Grey. She was moved to a different writer to go not be modern lol.

[Wiccan]

Modern Jean Grey should be old enough to be in-the-know of major X-Men AND mutant business. Temperamental, demonstrative, and maybe a bit pushy when she feels something isn't the way it should be, but usually very nice. She should be allowed to exist in stories that aren't just black and white, and be put in situations that test her decision-making and resolve to do what is best.

She should be a calm creature capable of the most terrifying rage.

She should be a fun 20-something that doesn't have teenage "kids".

We already had a pretty modern Jean Grey. She was moved to a different writer to go not be modern lol.

Are you talking about teen Jean? Cause Red Jean wasn't "capable of the most terrifying rage", had a subplot about one of her kids, and I wouldn't say she came off as a "fun 20-something".

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Oh I was referring to Percy's version, Wic.

I liked what Tom's version did. It was great to see her being a leader and unifier and I would like something like that for her today, but she needed a little bit more of a bite character-wise before I would call his version modern, per se.

On Percy's end, he's pretty much right there as far as modernity....besides having her run away from her responsibilities because she'd rather not know what is happening. That was not so modern.

[Wiccan]

Oh I was referring to Percy's version, Wic.

I liked what Tom's version did. It was great to see her being a leader and unifier and I would like something like that for her today, but she needed a little bit more of a bite character-wise before I would call his version modern, per se.

On Percy's end, he's pretty much right there as far as modernity....besides having her run away from her responsibilities because she'd rather not know what is happening. That was not so modern.

Oh right, I thought you meant she became "not modern" since the beginning of the Hickman era.

[xhx23x]

Percy did havee a good grasp of her. We'll see how she fairs in the new book. Hopefully it feels like a continuation of that.

[Omega_DCD]

So random thought...I wish Jean had a stronger history of one-on-one battles with certain villains, psychics in particular. Shadow King, Candra, Exodus, Selene, Sinister, etc.

And I'm still itching for some really good, creative, surreal Astral Plane fights/scenarios with Jean as well.

[Mercury]

That's a good question to ask here, now that I think about it. What do Jean fans want out of a modern Jean Grey? What traits would you keep or have added? What stories do you think she should get now? What do you guys expect her role to be in X-Men and what do you wish it to be?

As much as I don't want to slight fans of her marriage with Scott - for the most part, I love them together, too - I would like to see her single or even in a flirtatious dynamic with someone else. I don't think she's ever been afforded the space or time to have a romantic relationship outside of Scott and Logan. However, they’ve both been given the opportunity to do this several times - Scott with Madelyne Pryor and later with Emma Frost, and Logan with Mariko and others. it is one of the things that irritates me about Scott and his marriage to Jean, if I let it. As I admitted, I do have a soft spot in my heart for them as a couple. I've been surprised by how much I've enjoyed certain moments Duggan and Hickman, whom I'm usually critical of, have written for them. Though both she and Scott decided to form the new X-Men, Jean was most vocal and assertive about it and the reasons why. I loved what Hickman wrote for her in this scene:



Another thing I would like to see writers delve into, as I've mentioned several times in this thread, is the trauma she's endured throughout the years. To recap: she's witnessed and experienced the death of her best friend (though, it has been established that Professor X helped her heal from this in X-Men Origins: Jean Grey); has prematurely transcended the physical plane while saving the team on the space shuttle; has prematurely experienced a surge in her power to the point of making her godlike; has been psychically raped, as far as I am concerned, twice; has been, in part, responsible for billions of deaths; has been cloned; has died several times, and has had her entire family slaughtered. I think these pivotal moments in her life would cause anyone some level of trauma, which I don't feel has been plumbed or explored sufficiently. Doing so would underscore the depth and textures of her character. I also think dealing with her trauma in a realistic and nuanced way would be extremely relevant today.

As for what traits I would highlight, certainly her assertiveness - one of her signature characteristics - her leadership qualities, her supreme empathy, and also the solitude that is often inherent in individuals who have endured great trauma. While, in a way, I am happy that she has been distanced from the Phoenix Force, I wouldn't mind it bonding with her once more, especially as an indicator that she has fully healed from her experiences with it and that she's strong and capable enough to handle and control it. Honestly, I think the only other code name I would accept - and love - for her is Phoenix. Still, even without the Phoenix Force, there is so much untapped material to explore in regards to her history and experiences.

I hope to see her take on more of a pivotal, truly lead role in X-Men. I also want to see her powers explored and used creatively. My hope is that her telekinesis has only been reduced to properly track its growth and development to the point where she is classified as an Omega Telekinetic once more. In fact, I would love it if she was classified simply as an Omega Psi, which encompasses telepathy, telekinesis, and much more. Finally, I want to see her relationships with other mutants, especially her children, properly explored and fleshed out. She should be given more intimate moments with characters like her "sister" Ororo, Lorna, Laura, and Synch. There is so much that could be done with her. I truly have hope and believe that she is on the path to a gradually building resurgence.

[Mercury]

This was just published. Though it may seem frivolous and inconsequential to some, I love that she gets thrown on these lists:

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-heroes-cl...r-than-batman/

[Mercury]

Another one from today. Mama is making every list and I’m here for it. Pure love and free publicity! 😭💅

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-character...solo-avengers/

[Exodus]

Another one from today. Mama is making every list and I’m here for it. Pure love and free publicity! 😭💅

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-character...solo-avengers/

Love this! She could also easily destroy the anti-telepathy technology with her telekinetic powers and stopping Toni Stark's heart with a thought. ;-)

CBR seems to understand that you do not mess with Jeanny Grey-Summers. Hickman listen!

[Mercury]

Agreed, Exodus.

Also, Jean just had a song named after her and is included in the lyrics. It is by Lupe Fiasco and featured on Kali Uchis's telepatia album; it dropped yesterday. I actually like it quite a bit. It's groovy and the lyrics mentioning her are perfect.

Lupe Fiasco, whose real name is Wasalu Muhammad Jaco, released a new song of him rapping on Kali Uchis's telepatia.

"...Kill 'em with thanks, that's that Jean Grey, I walk a lonely road...you go against the Bucks like Phoenix in the finals..."

[Spiderfan001]

Another one from today. Mama is making every list and I’m here for it. Pure love and free publicity! ����

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-character...solo-avengers/

As an Avengers and X-men fan(although I lean on X-men(and Spider-man) for the past years specially in the comics) this depends heavily on circumstance.

Let's take current Avengers roster:-

Thor is immune to telepathy and even phoenix force Emma couldn't do anything to him via TP.
Cap's will power is insane and he has resisted Red skull Xavier telepathy.
Iron man has anti-TP countermeasures not just in his armor but also has nanobots that he used in AvX that prevented Emma from using TP.
She Hulk is like Hulk rn and Hulked out people has insane TP resistance.
Black Panther has insane TP defenses and easily keeps out Emma.Also has other measures.
Cap Marvel has decent resistance.She would fall if caught by surprise pretty easy for a Telepath like Jean(not that there are any others like her in current era).

And Thor ,Iron Man ,She-hulk(going full hulk), Black Panther, Cap Marvel have various ways to deal with TK.

If she gets them by surprise and they are all unarmed like maybe in the Avengers hot tub thingy(it's a real thing), then maybe.But in a fair fight, Jean can't do much here.If she has a team of her own then we're talking.

[Spiderfan001]

This was just published. Though it may seem frivolous and inconsequential to some, I love that she gets thrown on these lists:

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-heroes-cl...r-than-batman/

DD, Luke, Venom , Winter Solider and venom won't do better than the Bat.(The villains can easily make weapons to take them out and either mind games will F them up[DD,Luke] or specialized stuff like sonics[Venom,DD].)
Deadpool and Logan would do good.(Some of the villans will F them up)
Iron man would do great.(He seems like no.2 but gotham villains loves mind f*cking and tony would go down easier than bruce here.Not long term viable since they would eventually get the win)
Spider-man would do amazing.(Extreme will power, very smart and experienced and can handle gotham's mindgames and can also handle all villains fairly easily on both a mental and physical scale.Always get's up which is required here)

But Jean should be no. 1 here.She could quite literally just end crime while hanging out on Krakoa with Scott and Logan.