Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Grinning Soul]

This is what I was referencing with my previous comment

I got it. I just have a really weird sense of humour. :D

I didn't expect it would become a discussion, but I suppose I should have anticipated: clothes+Jean = posts+posts. :D

Not that it is a bad thing, by the way. :)

[Omega_DCD]

In the X-Force she didn't work on her own, though. So I don't know what was her doing and what was Black Tom's (or even Sage).
.

No I meant earlier when Beast asks her not to leave any evidence behind

Screenshot_20210621-101102_Marvel Unlimited.jpg

[Havok83]

In Xmen Red, she performed a molecular level TK surgery on Storm to remove the nannite from her brain. Someone with less skill and power could have killed her but Jean had the fine motor control to move something that small in a system as complex as the body

[Grinning Soul]

No I meant earlier when Beast asks her not to leave any evidence behind

Oh, okay. I didn't think she had used her tk to the level of breaking them down to the molecular structure there. But I guess it's possible.

Thinking about it, though, I think the smallest thing she certainly moved recently was the nanite out of Ororo's brain. So that is canonically the smallest limit of her tk manipulation that we know for sure. But, so far, she really lost (access to) the telekinetic sensitivity she had with the Phoenix, during Morrison's run. That means that she can manipulate stuff that is smaller than she can feel (she needed Trinary's sensitivity) so maybe it's just a matter of training her telepathy to develop an extrasensory perception...

That's what I'm saying: for a mind that has access to both telepathy and telekenesis, those differences are probably more theoretical than practical.

In Xmen Red, she performed a molecular level TK surgery on Storm to remove the nannite from her brain. Someone with less skill and power could have killed her but Jean had the fine motor control to move something that small in a system as complex as the body

Wow. We were thinking of the same thing at the same time! :D

[GeneTitan]

In Xmen Red, she performed a molecular level TK surgery on Storm to remove the nannite from her brain. Someone with less skill and power could have killed her but Jean had the fine motor control to move something that small in a system as complex as the body

Yes, this was a great display of Jean's TK. A telekinetic with immense raw power, like Hellion, couldn't pull off a such a feat. He lacks the fine motor control. I love these story details that show the depth of Jean's power.

[Tank]

Just because Hickman didnt label her an omega level tk doesnt invalidate any of her previous tk feats. SheÂ’s changed clothes before in SeagleÂ’s run, even used CableÂ’s tk via her telepathy to rearrange their clothes.

She lifted thousands of tons in Xfactor, protected herself against the gravity and energies of a white star, held apart millions of nanites in Cyclcops heart, moved around oxygen molecules fast enough to create an explosion, deflected punches from the Guardians of the mkranh crystal. She also molecularized the plant things in Xforce recently. These are all just on the top of my head.

Hell Teen Jean was able to sift oxygen molecules so the team can breathe in space and basically telekinetically reformed her body in space. Since they are the same character, adult Jean can do this too.

[Grinning Soul]

Just because Hickman didnt label her an omega level tk doesnt invalidate any of her previous tk feats. SheÂ’s changed clothes before in SeagleÂ’s run, even used CableÂ’s tk via her telepathy to rearrange their clothes.

She lifted thousands of tons in Xfactor, protected herself against the gravity and energies of a white star, held apart millions of nanites in Cyclcops heart, moved around oxygen molecules fast enough to create an explosion, deflected punches from the Guardians of the mkranh crystal. She also molecularized the plant things in Xforce recently. These are all just on the top of my head.

Hell Teen Jean was able to sift oxygen molecules so the team can breathe in space and basically telekinetically reformed her body in space. Since they are the same character, adult Jean can do this too.

I'm not arguing against any of that. Many of those things she did while she possessed a fragment of the Phoenix with her, but like I said many times: I don't think Jean (even without the PF) has an upper limit on her powers and her only limitations are the ones she imposes herself.

But that's me...

What I'm trying to do here is to guess what the writers nowadays could consider is within her range and skill. That means we shouldn't take what her teen version did, since adult Jean doesn't remember that. And it also means we can't take anything after Inferno and before her resurrection story into consideration either (because then they can always say it was because of the Force).

I'm *not* saying she's weaker than you guys are suggesting. I really do believe she has no limits other than the ones she imposes herself (that's how I write her as well). I even think she can probably do anything that Rachel and Nate have done if she gives it a try.

But I'm not the one writing those stories...

[Havok83]

I'm not arguing against any of that. Many of those things she did while she possessed a fragment of the Phoenix with her, but like I said many times: I don't think Jean (even without the PF) has an upper limit on her powers and her only limitations are the ones she imposes herself.

But that's me...

What I'm trying to do here is to guess what the writers nowadays could consider is within her range and skill. That means we shouldn't take what her teen version did, since adult Jean doesn't remember that. And it also means we can't take anything after Inferno and before her resurrection story into consideration either (because then they can always say it was because of the Force).

I'm *not* saying she's weaker than you guys are suggesting. I really do believe she has no limits other than the ones she imposes herself (that's how I write her as well). I even think she can probably do anything that Rachel and Nate have done if she gives it a try.

But I'm not the one writing those stories...

The way I see it is that everything the teen did is valid for adult Jean. Teen Jean didnt do anything she did, until she did it. Even if Adult Jean didnt remember it (which she should), we know its well within her capability and will forever be a part of that potential, whether she reaches it or not. In the past, we've seen other characters talk about another character's potential in abstract ways but thats all talk that decades later never really manifested. (think the talk about Karma potentially being one of the greatest telepathic minds). We've actually seen Jean push her potential (with still room to grow). Thats what makes her omega

[Phoenixx9]

Just because Hickman didnt label her an omega level tk doesnt invalidate any of her previous tk feats. SheÂ’s changed clothes before in SeagleÂ’s run, even used CableÂ’s tk via her telepathy to rearrange their clothes.

She lifted thousands of tons in Xfactor, protected herself against the gravity and energies of a white star, held apart millions of nanites in Cyclcops heart, moved around oxygen molecules fast enough to create an explosion, deflected punches from the Guardians of the mkranh crystal. She also molecularized the plant things in Xforce recently. These are all just on the top of my head.

Hell Teen Jean was able to sift oxygen molecules so the team can breathe in space and basically telekinetically reformed her body in space. Since they are the same character, adult Jean can do this too.

TRUE diddy!

That is why I consider Jean to be the Omega Omega and have Omega TP + Omega TK.

[Grinning Soul]

The way I see it is that everything the teen did is valid for adult Jean. Teen Jean didnt do anything she did, until she did it. Even if Adult Jean didnt remember it (which she should), we know its well within her capability and will forever be a part of that potential, whether she reaches it or not. In the past, we've seen other characters talk about another character's potential in abstract ways but thats all talk that decades later never really manifested. (think the talk about Karma potentially being one of the greatest telepathic minds). We've actually seen Jean push her potential (with still room to grow). Thats what makes her omega

I agree with you: there's no reason why adult Jean can't do anything that teen Jean did. Even if she doesn't remember how to do it, if she tried, she should be able to pull it off.

I also think that, if we extrapolate a little, there's no reason why Jean can't do the psyonic feats her genetic kids with Scott are able to do, because they got those genes from her.

That being said, I also prefer that she's not so powerful as to become a one-woman-army. So I'm happy with the idea that she limits herself, because I like to see other characters shine too. But that's just my preference and it doesn't influence the comics: the writers will decide her current power level.

I'm just trying to understand what would be reasonable for us to expect of the current stories.

EDIT: and by that I mean something that would be beyond any of the BS-excuses they could give us.

[Phoenixx9]

I'm not arguing against any of that. Many of those things she did while she possessed a fragment of the Phoenix with her, but like I said many times: I don't think Jean (even without the PF) has an upper limit on her powers and her only limitations are the ones she imposes herself.

But that's me......

......and me too!

Marvel has stated that Jean is ONLY limited by the Force of her Will and the Breath of her Imagination!

I agree!

[Omega_DCD]

Teen Jean counts...they're the same person and the 05 remembered their time displaced lives once the time anomaly was corrected. Jean especially, as a telepath, would remember, she tells Scott that at her father's house when they are reminiscing about Sara Grey.

But anyway, post Inferno feats have nothing to do with the Phoenix Force. What was returned to Jean was the borrowed life force...but it was hers to begin with. Even still, she excised whatever would be considered remnant Phoenix energies at the end of Judgement war when the Phoenix shaped optic blast severed a Celestials hand.

Furthermore in Excalibur #52, when Jean and Charles go to see about Rachel's condition after the battle with Necrom, the Phoenix Force tells Jean that it had removed all traces of its power from Jean.

[Grinning Soul]

......and me too! :o

Marvel has stated that Jean is ONLY limited by the Force of her Will and the Breath of her Imagination!

I agree! :)

Yay! :)

Unfortunately, Hickman clearly doesn't see it that way or she would be an Omega-tk too. That being said, considering how few mutants are classified as Omega nowadays, I'm glad she got to be one of them.

[Grinning Soul]

Teen Jean counts...they're the same person and the 05 remembered their time displaced lives once the time anomaly was corrected. Jean especially, as a telepath, would remember, she tells Scott that at her father's house when they are reminiscing about Sara Grey.

But anyway, post Inferno feats have nothing to do with the Phoenix Force. What was returned to Jean was the borrowed life force...but it was hers to begin with. Even still, she excised whatever would be considered remnant Phoenix energies at the end of Judgement war when the Phoenix shaped optic blast severed a Celestials hand.

Furthermore in Excalibur #52, when Jean and Charles go to see about Rachel's condition after the battle with Necrom, the Phoenix Force tells Jean that it had removed all traces of its power from Jean.

Yeah, but you could argue that Morrison retconned it when Jean magically got the Phoenix Force again...

Really... Like I said, it's not about what I think. I'm trying to get into the headspace of the current writers who clearly don't think she's as powerful as we do. It's not about me.

[Phoenixx9]

I think the current writers do not know all of these great Jean stories where her power is shown. Also, they may have their own takes, from certain readings or the cartoon where Jean was not always shown as strong and often fainted.