Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Grey]

Yall really can't be mad at Hix NOT writing Jean.

Writers should write the characters they are interested in. Heck, I just wish Ben Percy's interest in Jean was a bigger thing lol.

I’m not currently reading so I can’t comment on specific context but I half disagree with yoo. I think writers should write some characters they like as fans, and then write some characters they are indifferent to or slightly dislike in order to grow them in new ways. I don’t like the idea that writers just write who they like.

I do agree that they should write whoever they want to write. I just think who they want to write should be a mix for the best outcome.

(For the record I don’t care if Hickman writes Jean or not.)

[Grey]

I wanted to add one more cool thing: I think jeans tp coukd be used in really cool ways for missions that are infiltration or search and rescue oriented. Not only should she be very capable to be stealthy, but her tp also allows her to nonviolently diffuse situations if they go wrong. In fact I wouldn’t mind a little mini series of Jean investigating some very very high stakes issues in secrecy (coukd be krakos elated or terrorist / other government related. It would certainly be a refreshing new side job at least.)

Think Jessica Jones tv show type miniseries but with much less violence, more psychological suspense.and mystery.

[Rang10]

I’m not currently reading so I can’t comment on specific context but I half disagree with yoo. I think writers should write some characters they like as fans, and then write some characters they are indifferent to or slightly dislike in order to grow them in new ways. I don’t like the idea that writers just write who they like.

I do agree that they should write whoever they want to write. I just think who they want to write should be a mix for the best outcome.

(For the record I don’t care if Hickman writes Jean or not.)

I think you are in part right, writers have to challenge theirselves.

The problem on comics is that writers barely do it and often end up writing the characters they don't like very badly. That is why many people prefer to writers don't touch the characters they hate.

[salarta]

Hey, I had a lot of other stuff I was focused on and wasn't ready to check back in on this thread (lots of posts to look through) but I'm looking now! Though due to number of pages, I may be skipping a lot of things I would've replied to before. Sorry if you've all moved on fully from anything I bring up since last time I posted in the thread.

I love your post. I love talking to people who really like a character throughout their whole history and understand some parts of the character, their core, should remain fixed and others were a product of the time the character was written.

Some of those Marvel characters are 60 years old. Male characters, in particular, sometimes were written in a very sexist way and I think it's unfair to judge the character nowdays because how they were written in the 60s, for instance.

That being said, in-story character development is important, but it should be a progressive evolotution, not a sudden break, you know?

As for the treatment of female characters... well, things are getting better, I suppose. But there's still a long way to go. Lots of male writers (for all media, not just comic books) have trouble writing female characters. That's why I'd like to see more female writers writing them, you know? I think we need a better framework for those characters, something to help future writers of both genders to get those characters well, without struggling so much.

Thanks! With as much history as comics and several characters have, it really is important to differentiate between things that fit for a character, and things that are a product of their time. I think having female writers is generally a good thing, they can be more aware of sexism (including its subtle touches). But at the same time, a lot of female writers have male editors/executives above them, or are deeply committed to traditional comics culture and may not have the same perspective as someone coming at comics entirely fresh. So there's a layer of complication there too.

I love Teen Jean. She had great presence. She made characters uncomfortable. She had a temper at times but still had the warmth and empathy. She was also very powerful and other characters knew it and acknowledged it. She also had a lot of focus. Even though the teen Jean series was stylized and Jean felt more like a modern teen I still loved it. I loved Ghost Jean as well. Seeing Jean back in the Morrison era costume and with a more hardened attitude was great. I loved everything about it.

Teen Jean added a lot to Jean but we don’t always see it in current Jean...especially with her powers and a new relationship to her powers. I also loved teen Jean being a leader in the 05.

I always felt Lorna and teen Jean not really interacting at all was a lost opportunity. Jean was taken from before Lorna met her, so it would've been really interesting to see the dynamic between them, what Lorna would have to say about the "old days," what (mis)adventures they had together, what secrets she could say about Jean of the time and how Jean changed from then to present. It's not often you have a scenario where talking about those parts of the past would feel so natural to bring up. And Lorna would be privy to things the other characters around back then wouldn't be, since Lorna and Jean were the only women on the team.

...Well, thing is, who said that? Jean is sadly not a fan favorite character by most authors. There's Percy. Which cool, he wrote her nicely in the issues of X-Force he had, but she also left the team and overall I wouldn't say his run had much impact on her character. Rosenberg actually did, but then his Jean turned out to be average at best. Taylor likes her now, but afaik he wasn't a big Jean fan before writing X-Men Red, he became one during the process (of writing a book that was editorially mandated to focus on her).

I'd like to add that a writer saying they're a huge fan of a character isn't necessarily indicative of either interest or plans for writing. A writer might say it but not mean it, figuring they need to "sound the part." Alternately, a writer might say they're a fan of a character but their perception of that character is very off the mark, based on glimpses they got while they were focused on other things.

None of this is a statement on any particular writer at Marvel. It's just a note that while seeing a writer say "I'm a fan of that character" might be nice, its accuracy and what they really mean are factors too. A writer that doesn't say those words might be more respectful than a writer that does.

Did you guys read this interview? https://aiptcomics.com/2021/05/17/x-...gan-interview/

I have to say, I'll give the book an honest try, but after comparing the tone of his answers about the individual characters... I'm not expecting great things for Lorna or Jean... *sigh* I mean, who are they anyway? The two first X-women or something?

Marvel doesn't deserve Jean...

I don't think I can really speak on the Jean front (I don't know her like a dedicated fan of her does), but I thought his answer for Lorna was fine. I think there actually is pressure as a result of the vote, and I mean in a good way, that it shows people care and therefore would encourage any writer to likewise care when writing her (vs Lorna simply being added to the team and a writer thinking nobody cares what they do with her). Now, I don't know Duggan, so maybe he would care just the same no matter how Lorna got on the roster. But I think the vote adds pressure all the same.

Tbf, so did Lorna!

Yet here she is with yet another design, I just think if you're bringing back the X-men the heroes of Krakoa. Then apart of that big decision could include new costumes for this newly formed team.

Speaking for myself, one of the reasons this team doesn't feel cohesive is because everyone looks like they were all randomly thrown together.

I'd personally rather see Lorna wearing her iconic costume or a variant of it. But I'm okay with this costume given where Lorna is - that she's on the flagship team, with a good spotlight on her after having won the vote. I'd have really preferred something that kept her headpiece too, but people will know it's Lorna, so I'm okay. The new costume is also good in that it uses more than one color. It's also interesting to me to contrast and compare the costume for Lorna with what Jean's wearing. There's similarities and differences to visually imply connection but uniqueness (regardless of views on the costumes themselves). I'm also really glad they're not wearing team uniforms. I've never liked how team uniforms suck the visual identity and individuality out of characters.

I could say a lot of things about Lorna moving on to this new design, but all I think I really need to say is the most recent one she's had before this one was a team costume. This team isn't that team.


And with that I've gone through 30 pages of thread!

[Havok83]

I always felt Lorna and teen Jean not really interacting at all was a lost opportunity. Jean was taken from before Lorna met her, so it would've been really interesting to see the dynamic between them, what Lorna would have to say about the "old days," what (mis)adventures they had together, what secrets she could say about Jean of the time and how Jean changed from then to present. It's not often you have a scenario where talking about those parts of the past would feel so natural to bring up. And Lorna would be privy to things the other characters around back then wouldn't be, since Lorna and Jean were the only women on the team.

that was a failure overall of the time that Teen Jean was here bc they didnt play up how the dynamics would switch with her and characters she knew as an adult. They only really did it with Scott, Old Man Logan (not even OG), Magneto and Kitty

[Grey]

Did you guys read this interview? https://aiptcomics.com/2021/05/17/x-...gan-interview/

I have to say, I'll give the book an honest try, but after comparing the tone of his answers about the individual characters... I'm not expecting great things for Lorna or Jean... *sigh* I mean, who are they anyway? The two first X-women or something?

Marvel doesn't deserve Jean..

I actually took two things from the interview that made me feel the opposite - excited to read it.

For one, I absolutely loved that he basically said he feels no pressure to write Lorna well since she won the vote. One of my biggest differences of opinion on this board is when people complain that “nobody asked for this story.”

I don’t want writers to write stories we asked for. I want them to create stories we weren’t imaginative enough to ask for the fact that he feels no pressure coupled with the fact that he said he approached every characters with the mindset of he assumes it’ll be his last time to bat with them, it means he’s putting a lot of effort into a character to write ideas he has. Now, they may turn out bad sure. But I don’t think we can tell anything from the tone of his response.

With regards to his response to marvel girl, I was also a little excited. I felt that he quickly shut down the interviewer pressing that Jean has been on a linear path from quiet council to x force to here. “She’s got her toes on both sides”. I think that gives potential for way more depth and story telling, and I find it more exciting than his answers for rogue and cyclops “we all love cyclops” “rogue is my favorite” (Btw I’m not saying his answers about rogue and cyclops are bad- just trying to make a point that he seemed more....what’s the word, eager to correct to interviewer about their preconceived notions hoe he is approaching Jean and Lorna.

One other thing really stuck out to me. It’s a long shot but hear me out.

A lot of people complain of the marvel girl uniform. Hickman said very early in the run, in response to complaints, “I figured people would remember the significance of the last time she wore the costume.” Sure this could be a throwaway comment if no consequence. But the fact that this author in this interviewer said he was looped in a year earlier or whatever than some other people, gives me a good feeling that some things we have been waiting for (hopefully Jean moments) have been long in the making... especially since he was so quick to correct the interviewer.

I admit I could be totally wrong. But be optimistic! I loved the interview and am going in so far with excitement. His response re: marvel girl left the most room for mystery and change, which I think is a good thing for anyone who feels kinda “meh” about Jean right now.

[Grinning Soul]

Thanks! With as much history as comics and several characters have, it really is important to differentiate between things that fit for a character, and things that are a product of their time. I think having female writers is generally a good thing, they can be more aware of sexism (including its subtle touches). But at the same time, a lot of female writers have male editors/executives above them, or are deeply committed to traditional comics culture and may not have the same perspective as someone coming at comics entirely fresh. So there's a layer of complication there too.

That is very true. And above those editors there are also the corporate people and who knows how much they pressure the editors.

But it has to start somewhere, right?

And if I had to choose where, I'd like it to start with the people who actually give voices to the characters because they're the ones who can try to convince editors who'd then try to shield them from the corporate suits.

I don't think I can really speak on the Jean front (I don't know her like a dedicated fan of her does), but I thought his answer for Lorna was fine. I think there actually is pressure as a result of the vote, and I mean in a good way, that it shows people care and therefore would encourage any writer to likewise care when writing her (vs Lorna simply being added to the team and a writer thinking nobody cares what they do with her). Now, I don't know Duggan, so maybe he would care just the same no matter how Lorna got on the roster. But I think the vote adds pressure all the same.

I guess it was not really what he said but the tone. The tone was a bit like: "yeah, I'm doing what I can and if the people around me are happy, I guess it's all right. Fans will be fans, no matter what I do".

When the answer could have been more: "Yes, there's pressure, but that motivates me. She has a cool visual identity and a cool power, so the artists shouldn't have any trouble making her look super cool and I'll be doing my best to provide some cool lines and dialogue for her. This character is certainly beloved - she was chosen by popular vote - so my role is to make sure the fans feel that voting for her was worth it and, hopefully, that she's a richer character by the end of my run".

Or whatever else that showed a bit more of enthusiasm, like he showed to every character of the team (except Jean and Lorna), you know?

The contrasting tone of his answers were a bit worrisome to me. But like I said at the time, I'll still give this book an honest try. Fingers crossed our girls can be awesome there. :)

And with that I've gone through 30 pages of thread!

You are a hero! :)

[Grinning Soul]

I actually took two things from the interview that made me feel the opposite - excited to read it.

For one, I absolutely loved that he basically said he feels no pressure to write Lorna well since she won the vote. One of my biggest differences of opinion on this board is when people complain that “nobody asked for this story.”

I don’t want writers to write stories we asked for. I want them to create stories we weren’t imaginative enough to ask for the fact that he feels no pressure coupled with the fact that he said he approached every characters with the mindset of he assumes it’ll be his last time to bat with them, it means he’s putting a lot of effort into a character to write ideas he has. Now, they may turn out bad sure. But I don’t think we can tell anything from the tone of his response.

With regards to his response to marvel girl, I was also a little excited. I felt that he quickly shut down the interviewer pressing that Jean has been on a linear path from quiet council to x force to here. “She’s got her toes on both sides”. I think that gives potential for way more depth and story telling, and I find it more exciting than his answers for rogue and cyclops “we all love cyclops” “rogue is my favorite” (Btw I’m not saying his answers about rogue and cyclops are bad- just trying to make a point that he seemed more....what’s the word, eager to correct to interviewer about their preconceived notions hoe he is approaching Jean and Lorna.

One other thing really stuck out to me. It’s a long shot but hear me out.

A lot of people complain of the marvel girl uniform. Hickman said very early in the run, in response to complaints, “I figured people would remember the significance of the last time she wore the costume.” Sure this could be a throwaway comment if no consequence. But the fact that this author in this interviewer said he was looped in a year earlier or whatever than some other people, gives me a good feeling that some things we have been waiting for (hopefully Jean moments) have been long in the making... especially since he was so quick to correct the interviewer.

I admit I could be totally wrong. But be optimistic! I loved the interview and am going in so far with excitement. His response re: marvel girl left the most room for mystery and change, which I think is a good thing for anyone who feels kinda “meh” about Jean right now.

Thanks for this! I read it as a complete lack of enthusiasm, like I said: the interview is supposed to hype us about the new book and he could have answered very differently without giving anything away.

But seriously: thanks for your perspective! It’s always nice to read something optimistic. And I do hope you’re right! :)

As for Hickman's comment about the dress: I hope it doesn't mean Jean will get a bad case of Phoenix and have to die in the end!!!! :D (It's a joke, people, don't get upset)

[Grey]

Thanks for this! I read it as a complete lack of enthusiasm, like I said: the interview is supposed to hype us about the new book and he could have answered very differently without giving anything away.

But seriously: thanks for your perspective! It’s always nice to read something optimistic. And I do hope you’re right!

As for Hickman's comment about the dress: I hope it doesn't mean Jean will get a bad case of Phoenix and have to die in the end!!!! (It's a joke, people, don't get upset)

Yea! Try to hang on to your excitement. If it’s a train wreck we can come back then and complain together =0

[Grinning Soul]

Yea! Try to hang on to your excitement. If it’s a train wreck we can come back then and complain together =0

My excitement demands the prospect of mid-tk-flight kisses and I wasn't promised that, so... :P (again: joke, I have a weird sense of humour)

I don't think the book is going to be a train-wreck, really.

I think it's more on the lines of being able to spend time in a non-pandemic New York City with all its museums, shows, theatre plays, operas, ballets, cinemas, night clubs, bars, parks, shops, restaurants and end up going back to the Green Lagoon, to get drunk with the same people, listening to Dazzler. Again. :P

I do hope we come back and talk about how amazing the book is and how we never read a better version of Jean Grey. :)

[Phoenixx9]

My excitement demands the prospect of mid-tk-flight kisses and I wasn't promised that, so... :P (again: joke, I have a weird sense of humour)

I do hope we come back and talk about how amazing the book is and how we never read a better version of Jean Grey.

I love ya for it too.

Here, here!

[Grinning Soul]

I love ya for it too.

Here, here!

[Rang10]

My excitement demands the prospect of mid-tk-flight kisses and I wasn't promised that, so... :P (again: joke, I have a weird sense of humour)

I don't think the book is going to be a train-wreck, really.

I think it's more on the lines of being able to spend time in a non-pandemic New York City with all its museums, shows, theatre plays, operas, ballets, cinemas, night clubs, bars, parks, shops, restaurants and end up going back to the Green Lagoon, to get drunk with the same people, listening to Dazzler. Again. :P

I do hope we come back and talk about how amazing the book is and how we never read a better version of Jean Grey.

It's a lot to explore while on NYC, too bad Jean is not single

[Grinning Soul]

It's a lot to explore while on NYC, too bad Jean is not single

I'm a big fan of her giant husband too. He can tag along. :D

Or he can stay in the Green Lagoon. Then Jean can go out with Lorna and Rogue. That should be fun too! :)

[Rang10]

Jean for sure will have a a better time not being attached to a iceberg. NYC is full of culture, heroes and all that. Too bad she won't receive some focus doing her own things.
This could be Batgirl of Burnside for Jean