Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Grinning Soul]

Jean for sure will have a a better time not being attached to a iceberg.

No iceberg can remain an iceberg near a volcano, my friend. :D

I'm sorry. I know you're not a fan. I'm not trying to annoy you. It's just a friendly tease. :)

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Jean for sure will have a a better time not being attached to a iceberg. NYC is full of culture, heroes and all that. Too bad she won't receive some focus doing her own things.
This could be Batgirl of Burnside for Jean

The promise is that the book is a big Cyclops story.

You'd better just hope Jean still exists at the end of it.

You know which character has to pay the price anytime they go heavy on the Cykewank. Girl's probably about to go out like Santo lol.

[Rang10]

The promise is that the book is a big Cyclops story.

You'd better just hope Jean still exists at the end of it.

You know which character has to pay the price anytime they go heavy on the Cykewank. Girl's probably about to go out like Santo lol.

Talking about the interview Duggan was really good to reassure that Scott gonna get a big storyline and that he loves the character.
When he answered about Jean was like very cold. Really doesn't inspire confidence on it.

I really hope they won't play "Scott loses his family and have to do hard decisions about Krakoa"

At least seems like we got hid of Kid cable and since writers doesn't care for Rachel, they will be based on NYC, seems like we will not have Jean as a mom

No iceberg can remain an iceberg near a volcano, my friend.

I'm sorry. I know you're not a fan. I'm not trying to annoy you. It's just a friendly tease.

Well the water melting from a iceberg is a big nuisance LOL

no problem.

[salarta]

I guess it was not really what he said but the tone. The tone was a bit like: "yeah, I'm doing what I can and if the people around me are happy, I guess it's all right. Fans will be fans, no matter what I do".

When the answer could have been more: "Yes, there's pressure, but that motivates me. She has a cool visual identity and a cool power, so the artists shouldn't have any trouble making her look super cool and I'll be doing my best to provide some cool lines and dialogue for her. This character is certainly beloved - she was chosen by popular vote - so my role is to make sure the fans feel that voting for her was worth it and, hopefully, that she's a richer character by the end of my run".

Or whatever else that showed a bit more of enthusiasm, like he showed to every character of the team (except Jean and Lorna), you know?

The contrasting tone of his answers were a bit worrisome to me. But like I said at the time, I'll still give this book an honest try. Fingers crossed our girls can be awesome there.

Being completely honest, I've seen a lot of cases where creatives say a lot of things that sound nice only to do the complete opposite. Both with Lorna, and beyond her such as with video games. The scriptwriter for 3rd Birthday saying he planned to write Aya Brea as a "cool mature woman in her 30s," only to write her as a terrified doormat that passively accepts repeated sexual harassment and turns out to actually be some other teenage girl in Aya's body the whole game, really sticks in my mind. So I find creatives throwing out a lot of nice sounding words to be suspect. As a result, Duggan saying those things wouldn't hold much weight for me. Not saying them may even be a positive and imply he trusts his material will speak for itself. If you're well-intentioned and have good things planned, you don't need to give it PR spin.

Of course, we don't know what to expect for sure. I'm still very guarded after the past few years, especially with what's going to happen on Hellions during the gala. But what I've seen so far of Lorna on the new X-Men book looks like it's going a good direction for her.

[Grinning Soul]

Well the water melting from a iceberg is a big nuisance LOL

Not really, because then you tk-collect it and put it in a pool so can swim in it and it's one of the purest water you can get. And then it finally cools all that fire down. You see, that hydration does wonders to the skin! It makes it glow, really! :D

Seriously, let's stop because my brain is super silly and I can go on forever. :D

Being completely honest, I've seen a lot of cases where creatives say a lot of things that sound nice only to do the complete opposite. Both with Lorna, and beyond her such as with video games. The scriptwriter for 3rd Birthday saying he planned to write Aya Brea as a "cool mature woman in her 30s," only to write her as a terrified doormat that passively accepts repeated sexual harassment and turns out to actually be some other teenage girl in Aya's body the whole game, really sticks in my mind.

That was a guy, right?

I'm not saying that all male writers are this clueless, but some actually are. They actually believe they're writing strong female characters.

So I find creatives throwing out a lot of nice sounding words to be suspect. As a result, Duggan saying those things wouldn't hold much weight for me. Not saying them may even be a positive and imply he trusts his material will speak for itself. If you're well-intentioned and have good things planned, you don't need to give it PR spin.

I wouldn't want him to say things that weren't honest just for a PR spin. But if you have cool things planned, you can just say you have cool things planned.

Of course, we don't know what to expect for sure. I'm still very guarded after the past few years, especially with what's going to happen on Hellions during the gala. But what I've seen so far of Lorna on the new X-Men book looks like it's going a good direction for her.

Like I said, I really hope you're right. But I'm also very guarded.

As for the Gala... do you mean Lorna and Alex? I understand your concern, but I wouldn't worry much about it, if that's the case. They'll be on different books and I don't think Duggan will spend his panel time on a relationship with a character that is being used by another writer.

[starduck]

I don't get why writers have a hard time with female characters, like just write them like you would a male one

[Celestialbodies]

I'm still waiting for Exodus to use his powers

SAME!!!

I don't get why writers have a hard time with female characters, like just write them like you would a male one

I'm starting to truly believe some writers think male and female characters are so fundamentally different that they can't be written with different faucets of their personalities. We talked a little about powers and I'm noticing more and more female characters are usually written WITH limitations while male characters are written to overcome whatever limitations they might have!

[salarta]

That was a guy, right?

I'm not saying that all male writers are this clueless, but some actually are. They actually believe they're writing strong female characters.

I wouldn't want him to say things that weren't honest just for a PR spin. But if you have cool things planned, you can just say you have cool things planned.

Like I said, I really hope you're right. But I'm also very guarded.

As for the Gala... do you mean Lorna and Alex? I understand your concern, but I wouldn't worry much about it, if that's the case. They'll be on different books and I don't think Duggan will spend his panel time on a relationship with a character that is being used by another writer.

I didn't mean you wanted PR spin from Duggan, sorry if it came off that way. I know (or at least think I know; please correct if wrong) you're looking at it as him saying those things would show an interest. I'm just saying where my POV is and why I have it.

Yeah, 3rd Birthday was a male writer. Most poor treatment of female characters that comes to mind has been from male creatives. I'm not sure in individual cases if they actually believe they're writing female characters well or are just saying that though. Sometimes they can be very obvious in how they're looking from a male-centric POV, with that translating into sexism whether intentionally or unintentionally.

As for the gala (and I'll keep this brief cause I realize this isn't the Polaris thread), yeah, that's what I mean. Marvel's been trying to force that relationship or reminders of it in various places since X-Men Blue, and it seems like it's literally impossible for Lorna to do anything without Marvel feeling the need to put in at least one reminder. As if there's some kind of behind the scenes requirement to do it. So I wouldn't put it past Marvel to force more interaction or even a relationship because it would be good for Havok to be able to exploit Lorna's new spotlight while on the team (a behavior that's never reciprocated; Marvel saw no need to bring up Lorna while Havok was on Uncanny Avengers, after all). And note I'm saying Marvel, rather than a specific writer; it's entirely possible Marvel might do some other project for that purpose.

I don't get why writers have a hard time with female characters, like just write them like you would a male one

I've seen this as writing advice and IIRC some well-renowned writers take this approach. Personally, I think the answer is more "write them as if you were them." IMO, writers should be able to shift their point of view and imagine what the lived experience would be like for various characters. If you're a woman, how likely are you to want to be defined as having no value outside of who you're dating/married to, or as if that's the most important thing people should know about you? Would you have no aspirations for your life besides pleasing a man? Would you want to be fully capable of stopping all sorts of supervillains or running an international company, only to be recognized only for how big your boobs are? Would you want the biggest, most important moments of your life to be treated like they're worthless next to how useful you can be to someone else?

Of course, there's a limit to the "write them as if you were them" approach too. Nobody wants to watch 2 hours of James Bond playing video games while avoiding his missions. The idea is empathy, not projection. Empathy is the goal of understanding where the character's coming from and respecting that, whereas projection is ignoring who the character is and making them a copy of yourself.

Semi-related, I just recently finished watching Made For Love on HBO Max, and I think it does a good job of showing off through how Byron sees and treats Hazel how bad male-centric POVs can be even when the man thinks they're doing good things for her.

[Grinning Soul]

I didn't mean you wanted PR spin from Duggan, sorry if it came off that way. I know (or at least think I know; please correct if wrong) you're looking at it as him saying those things would show an interest. I'm just saying where my POV is and why I have it.

Oh, no... Don't worry. I didn't think you meant it that way. I love your posts. You're always very respectful and thoughtful. :)

I was just making it clear in case someone read it and decided to jump in. :)

Yeah, 3rd Birthday was a male writer. Most poor treatment of female characters that comes to mind has been from male creatives. I'm not sure in individual cases if they actually believe they're writing female characters well or are just saying that though. Sometimes they can be very obvious in how they're looking from a male-centric POV, with that translating into sexism whether intentionally or unintentionally.

I can't tell on individual basis either. I think that would require knowing the writer personally.

But I've known men who only came to understand how sexist they and their culture were when they had the experience of living abroad. And I think it's true for any kind of prejudice, actually: sometimes it takes some distance from our own behaviour and culture to understand how biased we are.

As much as I try not to be like that, I'm sure I'm also guilty of this blindness when it comes to different skin colour, different sexual orientation, different economic background, etc...

It's not always on purpose, sometimes we’re prejudiced because we really can't see.

And that's why I think exposure is important and why I said in one of my first messages that I'd want to see more female writers contributing to a better framework (for characters and stories) that will serve as reference for future writers, regardless of their gender.

As for the gala (and I'll keep this brief cause I realize this isn't the Polaris thread), yeah, that's what I mean. Marvel's been trying to force that relationship or reminders of it in various places since X-Men Blue, and it seems like it's literally impossible for Lorna to do anything without Marvel feeling the need to put in at least one reminder. As if there's some kind of behind the scenes requirement to do it. So I wouldn't put it past Marvel to force more interaction or even a relationship because it would be good for Havok to be able to exploit Lorna's new spotlight while on the team (a behavior that's never reciprocated; Marvel saw no need to bring up Lorna while Havok was on Uncanny Avengers, after all). And note I'm saying Marvel, rather than a specific writer; it's entirely possible Marvel might do some other project for that purpose.

I totally understand. I'd feel the same.

I love Scott and Jean together but, for me, this is the last time to make them work as a couple. The last thing I want is for a writer to decide to break them for whatever reason, just so another to decide to put them back together. I'd hate Jean to be in a on-again-off-again relationship. If Marvel ever divorce them, I’d be in favour of burning those romantic bridges and never looking back.

So I feel your pain.

But, honestly, I think Alex and Lorna might have fun and/or fool around during the gala, 'cause, you know they're both single and the writers know they have a good excuse to get them together for the night.

I don't see it going anywhere, though, because they're on different books and most writers don't seem very interested in portraying closer personal relationships than the relationship those two have now. It'd be really surprising to me if Duggan would want to use Alex when he's already a "shared character" and the X-Men team is somewhat large, with two couples on it already and one of them (Laura and Everett) with a much bigger potential for romantic drama. I'm not even sure if Remy would make a significant appearance, actually.

I understand you’re concerned, though. I do. And I hope this different perspective helps you. :)

[Grinning Soul]

I don't get why writers have a hard time with female characters, like just write them like you would a male one

I've seen this as writing advice and IIRC some well-renowned writers take this approach. Personally, I think the answer is more "write them as if you were them." IMO, writers should be able to shift their point of view and imagine what the lived experience would be like for various characters. If you're a woman, how likely are you to want to be defined as having no value outside of who you're dating/married to, or as if that's the most important thing people should know about you? Would you have no aspirations for your life besides pleasing a man? Would you want to be fully capable of stopping all sorts of supervillains or running an international company, only to be recognized only for how big your boobs are? Would you want the biggest, most important moments of your life to be treated like they're worthless next to how useful you can be to someone else?

Of course, there's a limit to the "write them as if you were them" approach too. Nobody wants to watch 2 hours of James Bond playing video games while avoiding his missions. The idea is empathy, not projection. Empathy is the goal of understanding where the character's coming from and respecting that, whereas projection is ignoring who the character is and making them a copy of yourself.

Semi-related, I just recently finished watching Made For Love on HBO Max, and I think it does a good job of showing off through how Byron sees and treats Hazel how bad male-centric POVs can be even when the man thinks they're doing good things for her.

I think this is a really interesting discussion, actually. :)

I think the “write a female character just like you would write a male one” works wonders. To a point. It works wonders to prevent the worst cases of subjecting a female character to an obvious male gaze. So if most writers would just ask themselves: “all right, would I have written this scene this way if the character was a male instead of a female?” lots of terrible scenes could be avoided. For instance, imagine if the writers asked themselves if having their male character faint (or almost faint) because they strained their powers to the maximum is cute.

Silly example, I know. But it’s still happening. To Jean! They still think it’s cute to do that to a character who is already infamous for it!!!

So, yeah, it works to a point. But writing a good character - male or female - has to do with having a good understanding of the character. How feminine/masculine they are (considering traditional definitions for these words - not getting into the discussion of how problematic they are), how it affects the way they speak, they way they act, etc… is just one aspect of their personality. But it’s an important one that I don’t think should be ignored.

And yeah… maybe a female character is actually overly concerned about her boyfriend/husband/kids… I mean, some women are like that. Who am I to judge? I’m sure if well written, if they’re actually tridimensional characters who are not defined by this trait alone, they can still be very interesting.

The problem, I think, comes when the writer portrays a character who is *not* supposed to be this way like that, just cause they think that’s the role a woman - any woman - should have.

[Su_Whisterfield]

I think this is a really interesting discussion, actually.

I think the “write a female character just like you would write a male one” works wonders. To a point. It works wonders to prevent the worst cases of subjecting a female character to an obvious male gaze. So if most writers would just ask themselves: “all right, would I have written this scene this way if the character was a male instead of a female?” lots of terrible scenes could be avoided. For instance, imagine if the writers asked themselves if having their male character faint (or almost faint) because they strained their powers to the maximum is cute.

Silly example, I know. But it’s still happening. To Jean! They still think it’s cute to do that to a character who is already infamous for it!!!

So, yeah, it works to a point. But writing a good character - male or female - has to do with having a good understanding of the character. How feminine/masculine they are (considering traditional definitions for these words - not getting into the discussion of how problematic they are), how it affects the way they speak, they way they act, etc… is just one aspect of their personality. But it’s an important one that I don’t think should be ignored.

And yeah… maybe a female character is actually overly concerned about her boyfriend/husband/kids… I mean, some women are like that. Who am I to judge? I’m sure if well written, if they’re actually tridimensional characters who are not defined by this trait alone, they can still be very interesting.

The problem, I think, comes when the writer portrays a character who is *not* supposed to be this way like that, just cause they think that’s the role a woman - any woman - should have.

I agree.
But regarding the bolded, they’ve always done that to Kurt but then, despite his love of women, he’s not the most masculine coded of characters, is he?

[Zelena]

I agree.
But regarding the bolded, they’ve always done that to Kurt but then, despite his love of women, he’s not the most masculine coded of characters, is he?

But Kurt has been written as a seducer… So he attracts women’s attention. They find him wonderful and it’s enough.

[Grinning Soul]

I agree.
But regarding the bolded, they’ve always done that to Kurt but then, despite his love of women, he’s not the most masculine coded of characters, is he?

That's a great point, actually... Maybe we should compare some panels? Not sure if it fits this thread, but I think it'd be pretty interesting.

Generally speaking, though, male characters do get exhausted from time to time, but they don't often really pass out because of their powers. They do fall on their face because of alcohol more often than female characters. So, sure, there's bias against them too. It's just much less frequent. :)

[Brian B]

I decided my post here, while joking, was in really poor taste and pretty offensive. So, I deleted it.

[Grinning Soul]

Edited to respect Brian B's decision, though I wasn't offended. :)