Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

**Grinning Soul** · 06-21-2021, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Phoenixx9

I think the current writers do not know all of these great Jean stories where her power is shown.

Also, they may have their own takes, from certain readings or the cartoon where Jean was not always shown as strong and often fainted.

It seems pretty random. At the same time that they want to limit the powers of certain mutants, they keep boosting the powers of others, particularly after they are resurrected...

**GMikey** · 06-21-2021, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Phoenixx9

I think the current writers do not know all of these great Jean stories where her power is shown.

Also, they may have their own takes, from certain readings or the cartoon where Jean was not always shown as strong and often fainted.

Originally Posted by Grinning Soul

It seems pretty random. At the same time that they want to limit the powers of certain mutants, they keep boosting the powers of others, particularly after they are resurrected...

One credit to my boss, DESPITE Jean grey actually being her least favorite X-Man, much of her narrative has focused on a strong Jean, one of leadership of the group, and using her powers in more strategic ways, not just "amazing omega power" dazzle, but showcasing practicality and tacfulness.

unfortunately for her (even myself) X-Men animated series was our first introduction to the X-Men and mutants in general. I never disliked Jean, but she did as a kid. growing up tho and being around many other Marvel fans (and soaring in the ranks of the Marvel fandom) she's grown much, much more appreciation of the character and i am anxious to see her take on Jean's narrative

**Omega_DCD** · 06-21-2021, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Grinning Soul

Yeah, but you could argue that Morrison retconned it when Jean magically got the Phoenix Force again...

Really... Like I said, it's not about what I think. I'm trying to get into the headspace of the current writers who clearly don't think she's as powerful as we do. It's not about me.

I'm just speaking openly not in a debate manner :-)

Jean's powers naturally lead to the Phoenix as they grow...it's her gift by right of her genetics(and her children) as stated by Death. Her ability to access it is an aspect of her mutation, hence Onslaught attempting to use her...and Sublime Beast using her blood. This is why she forcibly severed(or suspended at least) that connection because it limits her(push too far and it replaces her) and the Phoenix was being written as a selfish and manipulative hanger-on.(It having any sentience of its own in itself is a huge error on some writer's part)

Right now she equaling and even surpassing feats she's done in NXM (pre issue #150) so I think she's in a decent-to-good position.

**Grinning Soul** · 06-21-2021, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Omega_DCD

I'm just speaking openly not in a debate manner :-)

Jean's powers naturally lead to the Phoenix as they grow...it's her gift by right of her genetics(and her children) as stated by Death. Her ability to access it is an aspect of her mutation, hence Onslaught attempting to use her...and Sublime Beast using her blood. This is why she forcibly severed(or suspended at least) that connection because it limits her(push too far and it replaces her) and the Phoenix was being written as a selfish and manipulative hanger-on.(It having any sentience of its own in itself is a huge error on some writer's part)

Right now she equaling and even surpassing feats she's done in NXM (pre issue #150) so I think she's in a decent-to-good position.

I think the Phoenix should be sentient and even have a conscience. But *not* an anthropomorphic conscience. That, for me, makes absolutely no sense. I said it before, I think that in our plane of existence, there are three entities:

- Jean
- The Phoenix Force
- Jean + Phoenix Force

On the merged stage, I think it makes sense that the "Force" speaks. But Morrison made it quite scary, actually: "Jean is only the house where I live, Charles". For me that whole dialogue, and this sentence in particular, make it really hard to see the Phoenix as an extension/natural-progression of Jean pure and simple. I think it requires a bigger concept that is purely speculative but has been my headcannon for a while.

I think those three entities are the projections of something that is one, when you look at the perspective of the higher dimension that is the song of creation itself. But from our perspective and their own perspective while they experience their existences in the traditional MU, they're separate.

I can try to explain it better if you're interested, but really, it's not canon. It's just how I see it.

**Grinning Soul** · 06-21-2021, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by GMikey

One credit to my boss, DESPITE Jean grey actually being her least favorite X-Man, much of her narrative has focused on a strong Jean, one of leadership of the group, and using her powers in more strategic ways, not just "amazing omega power" dazzle, but showcasing practicality and tacfulness.

unfortunately for her (even myself) X-Men animated series was our first introduction to the X-Men and mutants in general. I never disliked Jean, but she did as a kid. growing up tho and being around many other Marvel fans (and soaring in the ranks of the Marvel fandom) she's grown much, much more appreciation of the character and i am anxious to see her take on Jean's narrative :)

Daedra posted on #4533 (page 303) of this thread pages of AOA's Jean. Beast says: "Jean Grey is astonishing, she goes beyond mutation into some other category I don't yet have a name for. Even on the microscopic level, each of her body's cell is a ferment. A separate center of power. Physicists talk about white fountains, spontaneous outpourings of energy, of cosmic birth--"

Considering the two versions of Jean are genetically the same (or as close to it as possible), 616 Jean should be something like this too.

So, like I said, for me, Jean's limitation is only the one she imposes herself.

My *preference* is that she's not ubber-powerful, though, because I like her best when she's on a team and I don't want her to steal the spotlight all the time. So I'm always up to reading stories where her personality shines more than her powers, especially if her powers are used in strategic and creative ways.

EDIT: As for your boss, I'd say that if she's making an effort to portray Jean well, if she's trying to understand her beyond the common, often reductive or downright erroneous misconceptions about the character, she's about to fall in love with Jean. :)

**Phoenixx9** · 06-21-2021, 10:46 AM

I like the opposite: if a character is Ubber-Powerful, then I want to see it. We had Xavier, Gladiator, Sentry, Thanos, (most) Heralds of Galactus, Apocalypse, etc.

Jean is Ubber-Powerful and I like her portrayed that way---on a team---ALIVE---using her power in unique and creative ways. We can still see Jean's personality, warmth and compassion. All the things that make Jean "Jean" and that includes her Ubber-Powers too!

**Omega_DCD** · 06-21-2021, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Grinning Soul

I said it before, I think that in our plane of existence, there are three entities:

- Jean
- The Phoenix Force
- Jean + Phoenix Force

Yep, I agree, and have said similar things over the years. A non-sentient universal force/manifestation of life and rebirth...an Omega level mutant telepath/empath who is also an ideal SPIRITUAL match to the PF...and the gestalt created through which this Force is able to act and know itself and the universe around it through Jean's keen senses and abilities.

On the merged stage, I think it makes sense that the "Force" speaks. But Morrison made it quite scary, actually: "Jean is only the house where I live, Charles". For me that whole dialogue, and this sentence in particular, make it really hard to see the Phoenix as an extension/natural-progression of Jean pure and simple.

What I meant was Jean's ACCESS to the Phoenix Force is a natural progression of her abilities. To me it's like other force wielders...however those other forces usually aren't encumbered with sentience though. Endsong made a point that the Force shouldn't be manifesting without a host, and in Jean's case, its very heart. But Jean and the Force were fully part of each other, so I fragment of the Force was also a fragment of Jean and she needed to collect all of herself/itself

Avengers vs. X-Men ruins this and just has it as crazy firebird rampaging through space on its way to Earth. What need does it have for a host then? Why does it even need to fly through space so commonly?

Anyway, for me Jean>>>>Phoenix makes sense to me because in X-Men Forever, where she was first labeled Omega...Death, The Stranger, and Eternity basically tell Jean that her becoming Phoenix was essentially a sneak preview of the fruition of humanity being seeded by the Celestial...the potential to evolve to eventually replace the abstracts

**Lucyinthesky** · 06-21-2021, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Grinning Soul

Yeah, I suppose for most deaths we wouldnÂ’t have a ceremony like they had for Kate (when they thought she couldnÂ’t be resurrected) because the people come back to life in a different body.

Exactly

So my guesses would be she would sink the bodies in a Krakoan bio-digester to speed up the process or just bury them, you know, so that the organic matter could go back to the life cycle. Since the bodies were still available, I assumed it was the latter.

Anyway, they are at the body farm now.

Yes but maybe once they are done with their research they will be buried.

Yes. Sometimes the art doesnÂ’t make it clear either, because facial and body expressions are super hard to get right and because sometimes gestures can be ambiguous.

Not to mention the balloons are great a great way to express how we react organically. Sometimes weÂ’re not lying, but we donÂ’t say everything because we donÂ’t want to hurt the other person or we donÂ’t have the courage to say it all.

Agreed and itÂ´s such an important part of the characterÂ´s nuance that it needs to be considered sometimes the art manages to send the message and sometimes it doesnÂ´t so a thought bubble can help on this instance.

I guess, at some point, the thought balloons became cheesy in the minds of readers/writers, but I still think itÂ’s a waste not to use them, since they're such a powerful, unique tool in comic books.

Yes and comics is one of the place in which those help and make send and is a good tool to tell the story, I am not saying every page should be full of thoughts but reflective stories can use them sometimes.

Yes. For me too. I think think thereÂ’s something about the resurrection, like we commented on the other thread. It seems to have been made deliberately obvious in DominoÂ’s case.

Agreed

If nothing changes significantly, I think it will be time for me to take another very long break from the comics. I don’t think I can keep stomaching it

ItÂ´s good to take a break sometimes but I think you still can hang out a little more I have the feelling Duggan has good plans for Jean on X-men and once Onslaught it dealt with and after Inferno, a big shake up will come.

But that is exactly the point: there was an agreement. People didn’t just move there and started building stuff because everybody learnt their lesson: stupid unilateral actions like that lead to war.

Some of them tried that´s why the agreetment became neccesary and I think we will see something quite similar with this situation in one of the letters researchers from the US wanted to officially ask Krakoa to go and do research on Mars so it would be interesting if this brings closer the more neutral parties from both mutants and humans.

Terraforming Mars isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But it was done unilaterally and that is a bad thing.

I wonÂ’t even get in the science part of it because we know it’s inconsequential: nothing bad will come of it because itÂ’s written to be perfect. But realistically? People should be freaking out - with reason - about the new lifeforms that evolved in hours in a planetary level! And thatÂ’s not even getting into the matters of increasing the mass of Mars (I actually simulated - the orbit of the planets remain stable, but the simulation doesnÂ’t take into account all the asteroids of the asteroid belt).

Dr Nemesis and some Scientist are freaking out so thatÂ´s something and if this leads to cross cooperation between them this will bring an interesting third perspective to the X-men and Orchis drama imo.

Anyway…

IÂ’ll focus on the political part. Changing the name of the planet, calling it the capital and announcing the regent for the Solar System is provocative to say the least. Add that to the kind of people theyÂ’re putting to live in the planet.

ItÂ´s provokative but itÂ´s not unheard of in the real world they changed Pluto stopped being a planet and the names of territories around earth have changed with the coming and going of movements of people and wars and in the MU itself Tony Strak converted the Sun into a weapon a no one bat an eye so in KrakoaÂ´s case at least there will be a reaction.

Mutants understand that humanity isnÂ’t Orchis, right? But they are helping Orchis become stronger. ItÂ’s almost like theyÂ’re actually pushing the conflict so they justify wiping humanity out before they reach the technological advancements that make it impossible. It wouldnÂ’t surprise me, at this point, if thatÂ’s what Moira is actually planing.

I donÂ´t think the act of bringing back to life a planet justifies a genocide but I see your point, so far they have done a good job flexing their power but they also need to make more attempts to try old school friendship, bridges and institutional cooperation with the members of humanity who genuinely want to engage with them and symptathize with their cause, the again Hickman is a writer that likes to write the follies of hubris and I think things will get bad before they get better, still I would like a new found cooperation with new and old human allies, that would be very wholesome and a nice contrast to Orchis as well as an opportunity to show the warmer side of the mutants once the Onslaught bug is out.

The oysters are like the tea: itÂ’s a joke to refer to that glazed-eye thing that is common on brainwashed people who are part of cults. It creeps me out.

You know I have seen this theory before and certainly have seen some signs of it like the ressurrection protocol, crucible, the addiction to death some of the youth have, etc and still Krakoa has some good things so itÂ´s a mixed bag for me, I would like to see a crisis in which the character address this situation to get better and finally realice their dream of having building a home, a real home for them because after the stuff they have gone thought on the MU, mutantkind in general needs a break but also a chance to show the good of themselves and not just their power. ThatÂ´s why I liked so much Spurrier take on his comic it critizes the bad aspects but wants to give way to an actual building of a country, right now they donÂ´t have anything to held them together besides the persecution so it will be very wholesome for me if Kurt finds a way for all of them to relate to each other as one people with values and perspectives for the future.

I donÂ’t mind characters making unwise decisions, but in JeanÂ’s case it wouldnÂ’t be unwise. It would be self-betrayal, self-violation. Back in MorrisonÂ’s run, she was advocating for how mutants could live together and help humanity using the powers not to fight other super powered people, but to make day-to-day life better. At the end of X-Men: Red she adressed the UN, with heroes both mutants and humans behind her and said:

- Jean: I'd like to show you. A world where no one is left behind. Where no one is shunned. Where no one is less than. No humans and mutants. No us and them. Just "us".

Living in a mutant island is already unjustifiable unless thereÂ’s something *really* wrong with her psyche or the writing is so bad weÂ’re supposed to ignore the two most recent, important, impactful periods of her life.

Jean is a self-sacrificing person. Are you telling me that, in her right mind, she agreed to move to a separatist island just so she could have a safe place for her family?

It kills her character more than actually killing her.

I have a question there because JeanÂ´s plan on X-men Red was to built a mutant country with Atlantis help and one that would be part of the UN so I honestly donÂ´t see much difference between her plans during that run than what sheÂ´s doing now, helping to make the X-men a super hero group that represents Krakoa and protects all of earth. I have definitely seen a change in tone and we already have talked about the insidious darker nature of Krakoa but the plan itself is not really different.

So do you think Scott was lying when he told Cap he only had a notion of what was going on?

They did hide everything from everyone in Krakoa. I assume they went with a Â“need to know basisÂ” approach. So people who worked in the terraforming effort only knew about the terraforming part. Not the political one. Why would they need to know? The QC had already voted on it.

Ororo certainly knew everything. Jean knew about Arakko. Ororo congratulated him. I don't think Jean did, actually. But it's possible I missed it.

And I might be wrong here. Maybe Jean knew everything and thatÂ’s why I said: if Jean *knew* in advance, it would sour our 25+ year friendship.

I believe Jean told Scott and Scott asked Steve to give them a few days about the Defcon situation and later asked him what he thought about it so imo, he may not have been sure if it was going to work but he didnÂ´t seem surprised to see the results, neither did Jean but I still think we need to see what else is going to be revealed on SWORD.

**Lucyinthesky** · 06-21-2021, 12:08 PM

He’ll have the opportunity to say something because David is openly criticising the terraforming stuff in the preview. I have the feeling Kurt will just decide no to mention he voted for it. Because that was most likely a mistake that came from the weirdness of the planing and how Way of X got super delayed.

It would not be like Kurt to keep that to himself when he has people asking and having oppinions about it and Way of X addressed MagnetoÂ´s plan after David came back to life so Spurrier knew what was up so I am actually curious to see what will his take be on Kurt towards the situation.

Isca's words in the Planet Size issue itself:

"If we are of this world, we will leave our mark on it. This is what it means to be a mutant of Arakko. Take from that what you will".

Once they have a planet and it's the centre of its star system, do you really think it would be a strecth for them to update that sentence to the following?

When they themselves said their new challenge was to learn to be in peace? Yes, Isca said something similar to Charles and Erik the first time they meet, that they were a people used to war but that in time they could learn to be softer and less peaceful but this will take a long time, something they didnÂ´t had back on earth but they have now.

The mutants of Krakoa just bought themselves some time before the certain conflict. But when it comes, it might be way too big for them to deal with it.

Conflict will always come, it´s comics after all and when it comes I hope it´s nuanced and not black and white. Arakko mutants are like Spartans that were brought to the modern world in one day and were asked to adapt to it in a matter of days/months, that just can´t be done and I think it makes sense for them to have problems dealing with this new reality, they are used to live in a completely different way that´s no longer compatible with the ways of the world and that brings a dangerous tension to an already difficult situation so they need to be given the time and space to make a radical change in their culture. What if instead of War we did something else, I liked this quote a lot because it resumes the situation, if Arakko´s leadership was really hellbent on dominating over the planet they would have said NO to the idea of being send to Mars.

**GMikey** · 06-21-2021, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Grinning Soul

Daedra posted on #4533 (page 303) of this thread pages of AOA's Jean. Beast says: "Jean Grey is astonishing, she goes beyond mutation into some other category I don't yet have a name for. Even on the microscopic level, each of her body's cell is a ferment. A separate center of power. Physicists talk about white fountains, spontaneous outpourings of energy, of cosmic birth--"

Considering the two versions of Jean are genetically the same (or as close to it as possible), 616 Jean should be something like this too.

So, like I said, for me, Jean's limitation is only the one she imposes herself.

My *preference* is that she's not ubber-powerful, though, because I like her best when she's on a team and I don't want her to steal the spotlight all the time. So I'm always up to reading stories where her personality shines more than her powers, especially if her powers are used in strategic and creative ways.

EDIT: As for your boss, I'd say that if she's making an effort to portray Jean well, if she's trying to understand her beyond the common, often reductive or downright erroneous misconceptions about the character, she's about to fall in love with Jean.

Originally Posted by Phoenixx9

I like the opposite: if a character is Ubber-Powerful, then I want to see it. We had Xavier, Gladiator, Sentry, Thanos, (most) Heralds of Galactus, Apocalypse, etc.

Jean is Ubber-Powerful and I like her portrayed that way---on a team---ALIVE---using her power in unique and creative ways. We can still see Jean's personality, warmth and compassion. All the things that make Jean "Jean" and that includes her Ubber-Powers too!

LOL wow i didnt know that line was said about Jean. im freaking aobut bc in the narrative Beast says a similar line about someone's blood and that its nature is "atypical".

Jean is an omega mutant with unlimited potential to be seen and portrayed. however there is exploration of potential "beyond" unlimited and what that looks like. its new grounds and new territory for what mutants (and other heroes and beings in general) can be. she doesn't want Jean in this area of "the Unknown" as she says she'd rather grant the spotlight to new/underrated heroes and let them this time carry the bulk of such narrative revealing these new power concepts, and new levels of power in general.

To ride from what both you and Phoenixx9 said, my boss would do a bit of both for Jean. her moreover goal is to write what she deems a "relatable" character for Jean, so certain aspects of her personality is rewritten, and even given some idiocyncrasies to serve as personal vices to grant her character more depth. power wise, she definitely would expore what makes Jean powerful but also give her things to overcome in an internal sense. and create situations that "unlimited power" alone cant solve, so she'd rely on other things than just her powers alone.

my boss however, is much more of a fan of antiheroes and darker characters, and even the major focus character for the X-Men's new narrative, is most definitely very dark. Even the Avengers' backstories are all very dark, and even partially disturbing in tone. Its an AWESOME, very intriguing, encompassing narrative set to explore many obscure characters of the MU and highlight severely underrated ones as well, alongside high-profile heroes too.

But these new "high concept" plots do revolve around her hero of choice, and for one VERY massive, existential plot device that is introduced, many have felt and suggested it should have been Jean. However boss says, "dark, gritty and chaotic" wouldn't work well for Jean's character (that is WITHOUT Dark Phoenix, just her on merit), and prefer her focus being one of leadership of the X-Men and many other mutants, rather than omniversal existentialism and identity crisis. I do feel like when ppl see this vers of Jean, they will embrace the vision my boss has

**Grinning Soul** · 06-21-2021, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Omega_DCD

Yep, I agree, and have said similar things over the years. A non-sentient universal force/manifestation of life and rebirth...an Omega level mutant telepath/empath who is also an ideal SPIRITUAL match to the PF...and the gestalt created through which this Force is able to act and know itself and the universe around it through Jean's keen senses and abilities.

What I meant was Jean's ACCESS to the Phoenix Force is a natural progression of her abilities. To me it's like other force wielders...however those other forces usually aren't encumbered with sentience though. Endsong made a point that the Force shouldn't be manifesting without a host, and in Jean's case, its very heart. But Jean and the Force were fully part of each other, so I fragment of the Force was also a fragment of Jean and she needed to collect all of herself/itself

Avengers vs. X-Men ruins this and just has it as crazy firebird rampaging through space on its way to Earth. What need does it have for a host then? Why does it even need to fly through space so commonly?

Anyway, for me Jean>>>>Phoenix makes sense to me because in X-Men Forever, where she was first labeled Omega...Death, The Stranger, and Eternity basically tell Jean that her becoming Phoenix was essentially a sneak preview of the fruition of humanity being seeded by the Celestial...the potential to evolve to eventually replace the abstracts

Yeah... I hate AvX for so many reasons, but the fact that Jean doesn't show (or maybe shows a bit in the end) is the main one.

There's no way we can reconcile Endsong, AvX and her resurrection story. They can't be all canon at the same time.

Scott talks to a woman-shapped figure he identifies as Jean at the end of Endsong and AvX. How? By the time we get to AvX, you'd think that Jean finished her work with the Phoenix and then... what? Moved on? To wherever people who die go? But then how is she talking to Scott? Did he, as the Phoenix, summoned her somehow? All right, I guess...

But then what is she doing being trapped by the Phoenix in her Resurrection story? Was the female shape Scott talked to in both stories the Phoenix impersonating Jean?

It's such a mess.

The Phoenix Force itself, for me, was only worth as narrative element while it was with Jean. Even the relationship between the Phoenix and Rachel itself already felt... off.

But that's my preference anyway.

I didn't really like the way the force was portrayed in Endsong either. For me, that's where it really started to get bad.

Nowadays, I think they have tainted the original concept so much that I don't feel interested in it at all and I'd prefer it to be very far away from Jean.

**WallStreeter** · 06-21-2021, 01:18 PM

In Hindsight Endsong and Phoenix Resurrection are both garbage. Jean comes back from the dead and immediately everyone panics of Dark Phoenix no matter how many times Phoenix/Jean saved the day! How ridiculous!

And until Rosenberg bad different ideas for Phoenix resurrection, the editorial wanted to involve the Shi’a. Frankly the Shi’ar freaking out about Jean or Phoenix is just lame and it was ridiculous that they even kidnapped Jeen s d went after Hope. There are plenty of other beings that could Jack up the Shi’ar throne world of empire. Cassandra Nova did. Vulcan to an extent did.

I think that’s why the X-office isn’t currently using the Phoenix. Probably when they think of new stories for her they will. But the X-Men’s cosmic connections need to be well developed beyond the Shi’ar. They’re doing a good job with terraforming Mars for Arrako, Otherworld, Amenth, Sword, the Brood.

**Omega_DCD** · 06-21-2021, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Grinning Soul

*Snipped but very much agreed.

Yeah if they can't respect even the basic aspects of its own lore, then I'm glad Jean is away from the Phoenix.

Jean is my preferred Phoenix host, and as far as Rachel goes, I view her as a beneficiary of Jean/Phoenix's (the merged being from UXM 101-136) redemption attempt. Jean/Phoenix's suicide shocked sense into it..but it still retained sentience borrowed from, and based on, Jean's soul. (IMO why it appears to Rachel as a golden energy version of Jean's form even when it could have appeared as anything) It felt guilt over what it caused and through Rachel, tried to atone. It felt protective and motherly over Rachel, and suppressed her memories of the horrors she endured as a hound. But this sentient state without a host was not right and sustains itself taking from future if unborn, so it finally decides it must return back to its natural state, leaving Rachel with diminished access to the Force.

That's where any Force-sentience should have ended.

**Grinning Soul** · 06-21-2021, 01:24 PM