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  1. #7891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Jean under writers who want to center Scott, Emma, or both is pretty much always going to be a bad time, save the Jean-positive moments of the Morrison run.

    Gotta get her away from those characters in particular, but writers are too tied to things being "classic." Because of how she is viewed by writers who are primarily fans of those characters, she literally can't be three-dimensional or see growth as she has to fit the role that benefits those two characters.
    The era in which Scott and Emma were a couple is hardly considered "classic" (or classy, for that matter). After all, isn't the time during which they were partnered considered the nadir of the franchise when the books weren't selling, and Marvel had moved on to focus on the Avengers and other properties?

    Incidentally, the other day, I noticed that you seemed to agree with the claim that Jean is a racist due to the infamous scene in which Mastermind makes her believe Ororo is her slave. Regarding those claims, you responded:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    That scan says what it says. Only bones to be made about it is whether Jean being racist is additive or too destructive to maintain.
    Your positions on Jean, especially since you claim to be a fan of her, truly puzzle me.

  2. #7892
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I thought I should post these here to clarify what Jean is willing to do when she deems such measures necessary:

    Mind-altering:

    This one couldn't be a bigger reach... She's not even "altering" anything, she just put an idea directly into his head instead of telling him to do it, so it'd be more effective. There was no question of morality because it was literally a project they were working on together in which Jaime had agreed to participate on and didn't involve any sort of trickery.

    Plus, the second one... From a random obscure story from the early days? Jeen used to be all about messing with people's minds, and it was considered a flaw and something she eventually learned not to do. Mature Jean wouldn't do such unless it was REALLY necessary, which is what she was debating over in TOM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    Telepathic cloaking is like, so routine to me. Even back when this issue came out I was wondering why Wolverine was making a big deal out of it.(And like with so many things, from Wolverine of all people, *rolls eyes*)



    At least Cyclops recognized the practicality of the situation and supported Jean...even if he ends up also hemming and hawing over it.

    Plenty of times Storm has asked Rachel or Psylocke to mask the presence of the team. And what about the times Jean has masked Hank's appearance as Beast, or Gambit's red eyes...is she assaulting everyone's minds to do so?
    Jean wasn't shown to be necessarily against cloaking though, Lorna was the one who pointed out the situation (Avengers seeing the hatchery) and told her to mindwipe them or something, and she was like "Hm, idk about that?..." while Emma had already done the cloaking.

    I'm honestly just kind of annoyed with this debacle, at least on the way it is being presented here, cause Jean had the biggest paneltime in this issue, vs Scott, Emma and Logan, and was overall portrayed quite positively.

  3. #7893
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    Last edited by baumblume; 09-18-2021 at 11:37 AM.

  4. #7894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    This one couldn't be a bigger reach... She's not even "altering" anything, she just put an idea directly into his head instead of telling him to do it, so it'd be more effective. There was no question of morality because it was literally a project they were working on together in which Jaime had agreed to participate on and didn't involve any sort of trickery.
    I wasn't "reach[ing]" for anything nor bringing up "question[s] of morality." However, you made a valid point. Nevertheless, she has altered the minds of people before, I'm just too preoccupied to hunt for scans at the moment.

    Plus, the second one... From a random obscure story from the early days? Jeen used to be all about messing with people's minds, and it was considered a flaw and something she eventually learned not to do. Mature Jean wouldn't do such unless it was REALLY necessary, which is what she was debating over in TOM.
    I am not exactly sure what your point is, lol. The bottom line is this: Jean has mind-altered, mindwiped, and killed people using her telepathy before. Done.

    I'm honestly just kind of annoyed with this debacle, at least on the way it is being presented here, cause Jean had the biggest paneltime in this issue, vs Scott, Emma and Logan, and was overall portrayed quite positively.
    I completely agree with you, so why do I feel as if you are disagreeing with me? lol!

  5. #7895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I wasn't "reach[ing]" for anything nor bringing up "question[s] of morality." However, you made a valid point. Nevertheless, she has altered the minds of people before, I'm just too preoccupied to hunt for scans at the moment.



    I am not exactly sure what your point is, lol. The bottom line is this: Jean has mind-altered, mindwiped, and killed people using her telepathy before. Done.



    I completely agree with you, so why do I feel as if you are disagreeing with me? lol!
    Idk, It felt to me like you were posting that as an argument against what happened in the issue like the people who are complaining, so I was responding to it in that way.

  6. #7896
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Idk, It felt to me like you were posting that as an argument against what happened in the issue like the people who are complaining, so I was responding to it in that way.
    Have you not read at least one of my posts regarding ToM #2? I know I can be longwinded, but damn... 😂

  7. #7897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    The era in which Scott and Emma were a couple is hardly considered "classic" (or classy, for that matter). After all, isn't the time during which they were partnered considered the nadir of the franchise when the books weren't selling, and Marvel had moved on to focus on the Avengers and other properties?

    Incidentally, the other day, I noticed that you seemed to agree with the claim that Jean is a racist due to the infamous scene in which Mastermind makes her believe Ororo is her slave. Regarding those claims, you responded:



    Your positions on Jean, especially since you claim to be a fan of her, truly puzzle me.
    I'm sorry, Mercury, but you've misread both of these posts. My apologies if they are not written super well.

    I was trying to say that the Jean/Scott pairing, and Jean being a satellite that orbits Scott and consequently Emma, is what is classic. Cyke-focused writers think she must constantly be around them because her being around them is classic. That said, I would say that Scott/Emma is a classic pairing too. I could take or leave Scott/Emma as a couple and really care about them less and less as characters the more Jean has to play to whatever story the writers want to tell about them.

    The main takeaway I intended there: writers are stuck on Jean/Scott/Emma interactions and she needs to be allowed to play with other characters, not in addition to them but away from them, for a good loooong while. It just damages her character, boxes her into this corny "wilting flower nice mom" role.

    As for that bit in the Dark Phoenix Saga with Storm and Jean, I don't know where Claremont was going with that, but what's on the page is on the page. I was raising the question that maybe that moment should be ignored because it is perhaps more destructive than additive.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 09-18-2021 at 11:59 AM.

  8. #7898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Have you not read at least one of my posts regarding ToM #2? I know I can be longwinded, but damn... ��
    I only remember the one(s?) about liking that she was on the issue a lot and her hug with Vision.

    Honestly I'm just tired of the whining and victimization when it comes to Jean in this era in general. It makes sense when it's about the dress (or the Marvel Girl name, though I don't mind it), it made sense when Hickman wrote her badly in HOX, it made sense when it came to her not being a leader anymore (until the new X-Men team formed). But now it just feels like people nitpicking everything complaining for the sake of it.

  9. #7899
    Mighty Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I only remember the one(s?) about liking that she was on the issue a lot and her hug with Vision.

    Honestly I'm just tired of the whining and victimization when it comes to Jean in this era in general. It makes sense when it's about the dress (or the Marvel Girl name, though I don't mind it), it made sense when Hickman wrote her badly in HOX, it made sense when it came to her not being a leader anymore (until the new X-Men team formed). But now it just feels like people nitpicking everything complaining for the sake of it.
    Actually, I feel the same way. I can agree the moment was written strangely, but there have been far worse portrayals of Jean Grey in the past.

    I am not saying we should settle on subpar, but we should also not veer to the other extremity. We can be critical and not even like the decisions, but we should also not ignore the good done for Jean and every other character in the same story.

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    Wait, on that scene with Jamie, I read that as Jean influencing/mind-altering him to do that too.

  11. #7901
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    Last edited by baumblume; 09-18-2021 at 12:09 PM.

  12. #7902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I was trying to say that the Jean/Scott pairing, and Jean being a satellite that orbits Scott and consequently Emma, is what is classic. Cyke-focused writers think she must constantly be around them because her being around them is classic. That said, I would say that Scott/Emma is a classic pairing too. I could take or leave Scott/Emma as a couple and really care about them less and less as characters the more Jean has to play to whatever story the writers want to tell about them.
    But that's the thing, "Jean being a satellite that orbits Scott and consequently Emma" is not "classic." lol. What I consider classic is the perceived love triangle between Jean, Logan, and Scott that dates back to the 1970s, which is an era that is certainly considered a classic period for the franchise. One could argue that the 1990s through the early 2000s is also considered a classic period. However, during neither period was Jean orbiting around Scott or Emma.

    The main takeaway I intended there: writers are stuck on Jean/Scott/Emma interactions and she needs to be allowed to play with other characters, not in addition to them but away from them, for a good loooong while. It just damages her character, boxes her into this corny "wilting flower nice mom" role.
    She was allowed "to play with [and lead] other characters" during X-Men: Red and did so exquisitely. However, I understand and can agree with your point.

    As for that bit in the Dark Phoenix Saga with Storm and Jean, I don't know where Claremont was going with that, but what's on the page is on the page. I was raising the question that maybe that moment should be ignored because it is perhaps more destructive than additive.
    I most certainly will not ignore this moment, especially because I honestly don't feel it indicates that Jean is a racist. "What's on the page" is that Mastermind had taken such total control of Jean's mind, he was able to make her forget her life, identity, loved ones, and even the era in which she lived and was born. The reference to her "innermost forbidden needs and desires" was obviously meant to point to her base yearnings for love, romance, danger, and power, maybe even prestige. However, to say that his illusion was based on her "needs and desires" is to say that she needed and desired to own a slave, which makes no sense. As I noted in the Ororo thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Claremont never specifies which of Jean's "innermost forbidden needs and desires" Mastermind is manipulating nor with which he is presenting her. What Claremont does make clear, however, is that Mastermind, with the help of Emma Frost, is able to not only control what Jean sees but also what she thinks, feels, and believes. As Scott notes in the panel below, "This 'ancestor' – Lady Jean Grey, wife of Sir Jason Wyngarde – knows nothing of the X-Men. Her allegiance is to the Hellfire Club. If they ask her to kill us… I've a nasty feeling she'll do it without a second thought." The villain of the piece making the heroin completely forget who she is, who her friends and family are, and even where and when she is from seems like a monumental aspect of this story to overlook.



    Jean "knows nothing" of people she has known for years, some for decades, and that she literally grew up with, yet is somehow acting totally on her "innermost forbidden needs and desires?" If the implication is that she has always harbored racist feelings, why stop there? Based on the setup, one can suppose that she must have always had a need and desire to fall in love and be intimate with Mastermind, forget not just her close friends and romantic partner, but her entire life, including her family, identity, and the era into which she was born. One can also assume that she always had a need and desire to live in the antebellum 18th century as a black cape-, bodice-, and panty-wearing woman.

    This begs the question, though: If Mastermind was simply giving Jean her "innermost forbidden needs and desires" and not influencing and even controlling those needs and desires, why would he require the use of such illusions and severe mind control? After all, when Jean finally breaks from his hold on her, he ponders, "She must have broken my control, but how?"



    It is clear that what Mastermind was tapping into and giving Jean was a manufactured and contaminated sense of love, romance, danger, and power based on her "innermost forbidden needs and desires" for those things, i.e., love, romance, danger, and power, not the illusions he cloaked them in nor the mind control he used to force those illusions, amongst other things (shudder at the thought) inside of her. I hardly doubt that Claremont intended to suggest that, in addition to "need[ing]" and "desir[ing]" to be a racist and own a slave, Jean also "need[ed]" and "desire[ed]" to forget her entire identity and loved ones, live in the antebellum period, frolic around in a bodice and panties, and enslave and harm all of her friends. After all, Claremont wrote "needs and desires," not "true thoughts and feelings."

    Of course, people who like to pretend to be aghast at this scene to claim that Jean is a racist character do not seem to mind the author who penned this tale. In fact, they even lavish praise on him and sometimes proudly promote his name like a brand in their signatures. I find this puzzling, especially if the intent is to call out racism and not really just to insult a character they seem to hate, along with trying to sully and shame said character's fans. (After all, these characters are fictional and their thoughts, feelings, and intentions are dictated by the writers...) The fact that they so easily "sweep" the psychic and strongly implied physical rape "under the rug" as if it were just an insignificant little detail certainly does not belie their intentions.

    The real unspoken crime and tragedy of the Dark Phoenix Saga and how some choose to view it for their own nefarious reasons is not the racism that these people maliciously and unfoundedly claim Jean "need[ed] and desire[d]," but the willingness to overlook the abuse a character was subjected to as if one should call it by any other name. A woman's psyche was invaded only to be contorted, contaminated, and, ultimately, controlled. If that weren't bad enough, the woman was also sexualized and placed in sexually compromising positions, to say the least. The redemptive irony here is that the one character that intuited and truly got what had transpired just so happens to be the character that should have been the most incensed and offended; that is, of course, if this claim of Jean being a racist contained a modicum of logic, critical thinking, or veracity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I only remember the one(s?) about liking that she was on the issue a lot and her hug with Vision.

    Honestly I'm just tired of the whining and victimization when it comes to Jean in this era in general. It makes sense when it's about the dress (or the Marvel Girl name, though I don't mind it), it made sense when Hickman wrote her badly in HOX, it made sense when it came to her not being a leader anymore (until the new X-Men team formed). But now it just feels like people nitpicking everything complaining for the sake of it.
    Oh, I agree with you, and I will go further: It also feels like some people feel the need, be it consciously or unconsciously, to constantly undermine the positive developments she has undergone throughout the past several months. It's disheartening to read these constant belittlements of her character, and a few times I have been almost been prompted to stop posting here, but then I say to myself, **** that. I'm going to promote my favorite character, especially because I am actually enjoying her current appearances.

    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Actually, I feel the same way. I can agree the moment was written strangely, but there have been far worse portrayals of Jean Grey in the past.

    I am not saying we should settle on subpar, but we should also not veer to the other extremity. We can be critical and not even like the decisions, but we should also not ignore the good done for Jean and every other character in the same story.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Wait, on that scene with Jamie, I read that as Jean influencing/mind-altering him to do that too.
    Yeah, that's how I see it too.

  13. #7903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Wait, on that scene with Jamie, I read that as Jean influencing/mind-altering him to do that too.
    Influencing, yes, but I don't think "mind-altering" is the best term. In Jeen x Angel's case it was mind-altering, because he didn't want to stay and then she made it so he did. Aka she changed his mind from one thing to another. But in Jamie's case they were there to do something, and she put the thought directly in his head so that it'd be more effective than just saying "Well, this is what you're supposed to do". If he didn't want to do it and then she changed his mind so that he did, then that would be altering something, imo.

  14. #7904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Influencing, yes, but I don't think "mind-altering" is the best term. In Jeen x Angel's case it was mind-altering, because he didn't want to stay and then she made it so he did. Aka she changed his mind from one thing to another. But in Jamie's case they were there to do something, and she put the thought directly in his head so that it'd be more effective than just saying "Well, this is what you're supposed to do". If he didn't want to do it and then she changed his mind so that he did, then that would be altering something, imo.
    But “putting the thought into his mind” does constitute altering his mind. Furthermore, she didn’t just implant an idea, she altered his mind to the degree it took to make him want to birth the space station. It’s not like he said, “I’ve got your schematics, Jean. Now, let me birth this space station.” The art and dialogue indicate that he was taken by surprise and couldn’t help but birth the station.

  15. #7905
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    But “putting the thought into his mind” does constitute altering his mind. Furthermore, she didn’t just implant an idea, she altered his mind to the degree it took to make him want to birth the space station. It’s not like he said, “I’ve got your schematics, Jean. Now, let me birth this space station.” The art and dialogue indicate that he was taken by surprise and couldn’t help but birth the station.
    I don't know if I'd describe it as "she altered his mind to the degree it took to make him want to birth the space station". Jean herself was surprised when he suddenly got pregnant and literally gave birth to it. So it's not like she literally caused that exact scenario. The way the scene is written from what I remember implies Jamie became more enthusiastic about it than they expected. Also, it doesn't really matter that he wasn't "Ok, let's build this" ? He was on Mars helping the mutants terraform and he was perfectly willing to help in their overall goal like everyone else there.

    This is really making an issue out of nothing. You may say it's just debating logistics, but I can't ignore the context where people were actually complaing about it when it came out, and that the discussion about it now comes from somewhat comparing it to the TOM #2 situation.

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