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  1. #6046
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    1)I mean death and destruction followed by rebirth.Scott said that, and having a extremely powerful cosmic identity that has no care for humans on or near earth is a concern.

    2)Cap saw Nova crashing, they guy was within an inch of his life.After killing the planet full of life.Even then he went to Logan who told him Scott has an agenda.
    Even then instead of taking him by surprise he went down to talk.

    I'm not saying he wasn't going to fight if Scott didn't shoot.I'm saying given the time-sensitive circumstances he tried to be calm and talk it out.
    He was trying to get Scott to see that his judgement is clouded.Cap was too far away as scott said by Cap was right in Scott was to close.

    3)Yeah, anything to keep the phoenix from Hope is a win in my book.

    4)Fair enough.And Spider-man had what? a couple weeks at max IIRC in a city in an alt. dimension and they were constantly losing Avengers.
    Scott had his own fortress with which he was familar and so much experience with the phoenix.
    I'm not saying it was easy for Scott, but it wasn't easy for the others either.

    And we saw Scott and Spider-man/IF had very different approaches to training as well.

    They aren't just master of martial art, they have immense experience in destiny and visions.It's in a lot of IF books specially Matt Fractions IIRC.

    And Spider-training her isn't out of the blue.Aside from his massive number of adventures and his run-ins with cosmic forces like Uni-power and beating the living spirit of vengance and surprising Mephisto and the Beyonder and his will was so strong as to influence and warp the Nexus of All Realities, a transcendent plane of being encompassing all of Marvel.

    But Most importantly he was the one who talked down Wolverine when he was Dark Phoenix and Wolverine says it was Spider-man who was responsible for the win.It was in Astonishing Spider-man and wolverine.He has already helped in a major way against phoenix.

    And it's also a good point for why wolverine is a good person to go for Phoenix related stuff, he was dark phoenix.It's canon.

    And a short while(minutes) after Avengers arrive Hope gets a phoenix flash? in a big way.The only reason Spider-man and IF got time to train Hope was because of Splitting the PF.

    And hope got a stronger flash on the moon and said she couldn't control it and asked Logan to kill him.I doubt Cyclops training her for a few more minutes would change that.

    5)Above evidence why Scott training would fail + Wanda explained below.I agree, it went downhill but if they didn't interfere then it would be even worse with a Hope unable to control the phoenix and a Scott unwilling to accept this and kill her as we saw.

    And they were, with their training and Wanda they prevented the mess that would happen otherwise.Not saying they didn't make mistakes.

    6)Again at what cost, and even if no destruction would happen it woudn't work because I just proved why Hope couldn't control it.

    No, I'm saying creating new mutants when that's only putting them in jeoprady was something Scott should have thought about.He wanted to create more mutants but didn't think of how it will play out if he was succesfull.
    It's just a side-point, nothing to do with my main argument.I understand Scott was under much burden and needed a big win.

    7)I never said so.But Hope couldn't do it alone either.the Entire ending is them doing it together.They literally say this in narration.One can't do it without the other.It wasn't just support.
    They literally say look what they can do when pointed at each other.

    "Wanda's hew blasts were the only thing that truly hurts him (Dark phoenix), hope is mimicking and channeling it into a version of the Iron fist".This is a direct quote from AvX 12.
    Wanda is the only one who is hurting it.Hope was using Wanda's hexes as well.

    As the phoenix was let go by Wanda+Hope(using Wanda's powers w/IF and her training).Not just Hope using Wanda for emotional support.Wanda+Hope.They are both needed, that's the point.

    To recap:-

    1)Scott's training wouldn't work since a)We know she need training by Spider-man[dealt with a dark phoenix wolverine single handedly] and Iron Fist
    b)They needed Wanda for her hexes and so hope can mimick them.They needed to work together to let PF go
    c)We saw hope unable to control PF on the moon(already explained why Scott would only get minutes more of Training with her)

    2)I do agree both sides should have done better but I would argue while Avengers lack experience with PF the X-judgement was clouded(scott stopping wolverine from killing an out of control hope with PF asking to be killed) and Avengers did pull through but needed a lot of lucky, luckily they had it.
    No, Scott definitely said rebirth. It was Cap that mentioned destruction.

    Anyways, I think for the most part we have a general understanding of both sides, so I will call it here. Ultimately, I see Hope becoming Phoenix as a good thing and would have been if Scott continued her training. You think otherwise, which is an impasse I don’t think we will agree on. Still, it was a riveting conversation. Hope for more in the future. Feel free to ask any other questions of you have any.

  2. #6047
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    It's also important to point out that Jean was the student Xavier trusted most with his first big secret.



    Yes, he did.

    And Jean kept that trust and further created greater trust by following Xavier's request/orders to keep the secret from the others.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  3. #6048
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    No, Scott definitely said rebirth. It was Cap that mentioned destruction.

    Anyways, I think for the most part we have a general understanding of both sides, so I will call it here. Ultimately, I see Hope becoming Phoenix as a good thing and would have been if Scott continued her training. You think otherwise, which is an impasse I don’t think we will agree on. Still, it was a riveting conversation. Hope for more in the future. Feel free to ask any other questions of you have any.
    At the start the X-men are discussing the phoenix and one of them say it brings destruction and Scott says also rebirth.He knew the risks.
    Yeah, good point to call it.

    Great discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    He has always trusted her deeply.

    So good, then I remember his weird crush on her and....

  4. #6049
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    So good, then I remember his weird crush on her and....
    Don't. Best not to dwell on that...thought.

    Instead, remove the "crush" part and insert "fatherly concern and admiration" instead.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  5. #6050
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Don't. Best not to dwell on that...thought.

    Instead, remove the "crush" part and insert "fatherly concern and admiration" instead.
    Agreed.
    Although let's leave it at concern, I don't want to know what he is admiring.

  6. #6051
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Agreed.
    Although let's leave it at concern, I don't want to know what he is admiring.
    He is admiring Jean's courage, beauty, intelligence and POWER!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  7. #6052
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Spidey, I just want to remind you of something from days ago...

    Cut. The. Blood. Flow.

    🤣

    EDIT: I am not trying to revive that debate again.

  8. #6053
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    He is admiring Jean's courage, beauty, intelligence and POWER!
    She’s the mother of his son, his admiration is understandable
    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  9. #6054
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    She’s the mother of his son, his admiration is understandable
    Now, now.....let's be nice in the Jean Grey Appreciation Thread!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  10. #6055
    Incredible Member andreikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    He has always trusted her deeply.

    I wish she had done that when she left the council without the cyke.
    "the world needs the x-men"

  11. #6056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Now, now.....let's be nice in the Jean Grey Appreciation Thread!
    Quentin needs his mama to finally accept him into the family.
    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  12. #6057
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    Quentin needs his mama to finally accept him into the family.
    LOL.

    Yeah, QQ needs training.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  13. #6058
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    LOL.

    Yeah, QQ needs training.
    He chose wisely with Phoebe as his girlfriend. The Stepford Cuckoos are phenomenal telepaths for their age. Let’s hope she can rub off on him.

  14. #6059
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    Jean used her telekinesis to knock off Stryfe’s helmet and psychically shutdown his powers. That’s a huge power feat. She did this some panels after they had to save Esme from Stryfe.

    So yeah they are showing more on how powerful she is.

  15. #6060
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Jean used her telekinesis to knock off Stryfe’s helmet and psychically shutdown his powers. That’s a huge power feat. She did this some panels after they had to save Esme from Stryfe.

    So yeah they are showing more on how powerful she is.
    Not really.

    Stryfe is pretty bad when comparing him to high tier telepaths like Jean, Rachel, Emma, or Xavier. He claims to be an Omega Level Mutant Pre-Hickman run, but you know there is a problem when Rachel is sitting there stomping you casually. Your average high tier should at least be capable of putting up a fight, like Emma did when Ghost Jean possessed her or when Jean resisted Onslaught enough to keep him from the information on the Phoenix Force.

    Not to mention Jean’s shutting him down is a joint feat from Esme. While we can agree that Jean may have did most of the work, how much work is pretty unquantifiable. I would say her putting Rachel and Cerebro-amped Cable into the infirmary with psionic phenomena overloading them is a better feat than what she did to Stryfe.

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