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  1. #2851
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Which she is, to a point. She's a maternal person. But it's reductive to say she's just that.

    She's also the woman who didn't react well when Rachel appeared. Like I said, she's complex and nuanced. It's not easy to write her well and most writers don't even bother. They just write her considering whatever biased views they have of her.
    Yes, I agree!

    But I think even with this complexity, if most writers read some of the old material----the material where it shows Jean's depth of character----and if they cared about Jean at all---then they would read that material and be able to do a decent job today and going forward too.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  2. #2852
    Incredible Member andreikes's Avatar
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    In x-men red cyke was dead. It would be nice if he was alive and Jean ended up with him saying that everything was good. But I don't know if Taylor would do that. Or would she be the leader and he the co-leader

  3. #2853
    Fantastic Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    An element of the problem is when these characters were created. Lorna and Jean were both created in the 60s, when female characters were still generally preferred as more domestic, more defined by their relationships to men around them. Instead of challenging and correcting this, some subsequent writers decided to treat such usage as sacrosanct and like Lorna and Jean must adhere to it, while creating and introducing new women (Storm, Rogue, Shadowcat, etc) that did not. It comes down to a judgment call by those writers that such depictions are somehow essential to those characters' identities, rather than something that should be moved away from as part of modernizing characterization.
    Claremont challenged that view of Jean when he had her reach her ultimate potential and become Phoenix. His Jean was complex, passionate, fierce, kind, sexy, independent, mischievous, caring, powerful. Then when it was time to resurrect her, some male writers (and male editors?) decided that the way to go was bring back the person Jean was before the Phoenix. Thankfully Louise Simonson took over and wrote her quite well, but the damage had been done.

    I guess that is why I will always dislike even the first retcon of Phoenix. It removed so much of Jean’s development. I sincerely doubt a male character would have been brought back like that.

    In this day and age, a modern vision of the X-Men universe would have been to remove all Phoenix retcons and give Jean all the power. I doubt it will happen, but I will never lose hope.
    Last edited by johnnysv75; 05-04-2021 at 03:33 PM.

  4. #2854
    Fantastic Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Jean is a very complex, nuanced character to write. I'd love to see a female writer writing her again and being the main writer for the character.

    That being said, I think we agree it's not a conceptual problem, right? It's a choice the writers have. The problem then isn't the relationship between Scott and Jean per se.
    I am a huge fan of Jean and Scott together. When they are written well, they make each other better.
    I loved The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix. I think they make a great couple and it would be interesting to see them written by a female writer.

  5. #2855
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Outlander has problems. I agree. But I was referring to the portrayal of the characters. I don't get a sense that one is more important to the story than the other. So it was just an example that it can be done.

    Female writers can writer overly-supportive wall paper boyfriends too, though.

    Anyway, yes, Scott did yell at her (off panel) and I liked the scene. You see? People aren't perfect. He isn't perfect either. Jean wearing that uniform is a traumatic experience to him. She appeared, wearing it out of the blue, he snapped. But the scene starts with him apologising, actually.

    Here's an example of him being supportive:

    X-Men #28 (the blue team book):

    Scott and Jean talked to Charles about some of the decisions he had made recently. Particularly about taking Sabretooth as a prisoner. After they explain their disagreement, Charles leaves. And then Scott and Jean talk:

    - Scott: Jean, what's wrong with you? You're not acting like yourself at all. First, you criticized him for acting out of anger and now you do it when he acts out of compassion?
    - Jean: Don't you see, Scott? We're about to make a major change in our lives -- we're getting married! Making that decision was hard enough considering how we live but with Sabretooth here... Somehow, someway, it unnerves me. It frightens me, Scott.
    - Scott: Jean, this has nothing to do with our wedding -- or what just happened between Cable and us -- this is about Logan, isn't it?
    She doesn't answer, so he continues:
    - Scott: I know how you felt -- still do, I guess -- I understand it, too... The fire burning inside him... the dangerous side of things can be incredibly exciting. I can see that excitment always appealed to you... You and he always shared that passion for life...
    - Jean: Scott -- please -- it was a long time ago... a confusing time.
    - Scott: Jean, it's important that we talk about these things-- I know how angry you were when Wolverine was hurt so badly-- we all were... But we have to respect his decision to leave.
    - Jean: When I first met Wolverine-- heard him, argued with him, that first night in the garden -- it wasn't so much what I saw in him as what he made me see in myself. It frightened me. I saw a side I didn't think existed. A side I liked. What does that say about the kind of person I am, Scott?
    - Scott: Honey, it only means you're human, like the rest of us--

    And then they are interrupted.



    Except for the part where Scott is talking about how he could see Logan was able to affect Jean's passionate side - which is something that is clearly difficult for him - he's holding her arms, caressing her hair and face, when she's feeling ashamed. More than in words, he is phisically comforting her, communicating that he understands that she is not perfect and he accepts that, even though it's clearly not easy for him.

    We tend to think Jean is always there to take care of Scott, but that's not true. It's always been mutual. Scott is just more screwed up, which makes sense if you consider what kind of childhood he had as opposed to hers.
    I prefer supportive wallpaper boyfriends than just supportive girlfriends that only there for that. at least it is a subversion of the trope, we alredy have many mary janes on fiction.

    Scott should know more than enough that Jean only lost to dark Phoenix because she was being abused. He should never yell at her because of it. If he was really traumatized by it years later he wouldn't cheat with Emma that was co-responsible for it.
    it also fits his trend to make everything only about him and forget he has a partner

    I know the scene and I really like it. But their future interactios are really one sided, we see that Jean cares about him but he nly cares about himself.

    Jean and Scott already had their cycle: they married, raised a kid, he cheated, she died. They went different ways. Nostalgia won't do good for Jean, soo she will be discarded again.

    I also tired tht Scott can have every type of story and jean can ony be a mother and his wife. That is wrong

  6. #2856
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    That's going to be the one somewhat compelling thing about Jean being stripped of her power, leadership, imagery, etc so she can be restrained to the "main character's love interest" role:

    When we are reminded that they aren't interesting in the same comic book panels, will that get blamed on the woman again? Will Jean be written out again or just simply not used when she isn't there just to echo whatever order Cyclops is giving?
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  7. #2857
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreikes View Post
    In x-men red cyke was dead. It would be nice if he was alive and Jean ended up with him saying that everything was good. But I don't know if Taylor would do that. Or would she be the leader and he the co-leader
    Taylor said that he wanted Jean to be single

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    That's going to be the one somewhat compelling thing about Jean being stripped of her power, leadership, imagery, etc so she can be restrained to the "main character's love interest" role:

    When we are reminded that they aren't interesting in the same comic book panels, will that get blamed on the woman again? Will Jean be written out again or just simply not used when she isn't there just to echo whatever order Cyclops is giving?
    I hope that this time jean not gonna get blamed for Cyclops bad writing on X-men books. Seems lot of his fans complaining about how he is boring now.
    Last edited by Rang10; 05-04-2021 at 04:27 PM.

  8. #2858
    Incredible Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    I prefer supportive wallpaper boyfriends than just supportive girlfriends that only there for that. at least it is a subversion of the trope, we alredy have many mary janes on fiction.
    That's true. But supportive wallpaper boyfriends also bore me. I prefer characters to be tridimensional, regardless of their gender.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Scott should know more than enough that Jean only lost to dark Phoenix because she was being abused. He should never yell at her because of it.
    He knew that. But, you see, this is a reaction that isn't rational. He snapped. It happens to everyone. He immediately apologised.

    How many times she snapped at him too? There is a scene during Simonson's run when Jean has an inner dialogue in which she reprimands herself for berating Scott.

    They're fictional characters, sure. But they are supposed to emulate real people. Real people have moments like that.




    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    If he was really traumatized by it years later he wouldn't cheat with Emma that was co-responsible for it.
    it also fits his trend to make everything only about him and forget he has a partner
    That's a bigger discussion. But sure, if you want to talk about the affair, we can go for it. Let me know. :)



    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    I know the scene and I really like it. But their future interactios are really one sided, we see that Jean cares about him but he nly cares about himself.
    It's not true...

    Scott gets a bomb in his chest and after the X-Men remove it, he and Jean go to Alaska for him to recover. Once he's recovered enough, their plan is to sell the house and go back, but Jean loses her telepathy and they decide to stay.

    This happens in X-Men #359. They're at the hospital.

    Narrator: Anchorage. As the mutant Phoenix, Jean Grey's mind was like a radio receiver, picking up the hidden thoughts of others and broadcasting them inside her head. Since early adolescence, she spent her entire life learning to filter the channels out and make specific rather than general use of all the voices she "heard". But now there is no sound -- now she is completely alone in her own mind. The sensation is... unsettling.

    - Jean: There's nothing our there, Scott. It's as if someone has a stranglehold on the psi-plane and I've been shut out of it. I feel damaged -- like I've lost one of my senses.
    - Scott: When I was injured battling Bastion, I seem to recall a wise woman telling me -- "our powers may be a part of us, bu they are not the totality of what we are".
    - Jean: That woman's not here anymore. Not all of her. Not that part that shared a psionic link with you.
    - Scott: The bond between us transcends your mutant powers, Jean. You're my wife. Even if you've left my mind, you could never leave my heart. Jean?

    Narrator: His words have always been enough for her before but today's the first time she's had to hear them only with her ears.

    So they go back to their house in Alaska.

    Narrator: Ptarmigan Creek, Alaska. It's been weeks since Scott Summers last saw his teammate Rogue but while there is a great physical distance between them, their minds are on the same page. Dreams do die, the trick is not to let them take the dreamer with them.

    - Jean: I heard that.
    - Scott: Jean? Your powers are--
    She hugs and interrupts him. She's crying.
    - Jean: Sorry. It was a joke. A bad one, but I couldn't help myself. I want back into your thoughts, I already miss the closeness more than I can say. Are you angry with me?
    - Scott: Angry?
    - Jean: That we have to stay here now while I recover. I know you had big plans for the X-Men, a new dream to shape and guide them in the Professor's absence.
    - Scott: I have a lot of dreams Jean, and if you could read my thoughts right now, you'd know that having you safe and sound beside me is always the one foremost in my mind. I'm happy to stay in Alaska for as long as it takes, longer even. I love you.
    - Jean: I always knew that before, but now that I don't, say it... Say it often.

    They're still in Alaska by the time The Twelve starts and then Scott is possessed at the end of that story and after Jean rescues him he's a total mess. But you see, right before Morrison's run starts, Scott is right there: being supportive of her.






    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Jean and Scott already had their cycle: they married, raised a kid, he cheated, she died. They went different ways. Nostalgia won't do good for Jean, soo she will be discarded again.
    It's not nostalgia.

    For her, it's her life. She died before they could even talk about what was going on with their marriage. She came back to life and they never had the chance to work on their marriage before the Krakoa era started.

    Again, if you want to talk about the affair, I'm willing to go for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    I also tired tht Scott can have every type of story and jean can ony be a mother and his wife. That is wrong
    He had years of story because she was dead. Now he's only being a father and her husband...



    Look, I'm not trying to convince you. You have the right to feel however you feel. I'm just trying to point out that when we're upset it tends to blur our vision. I can totally relate.

    I really do hope this discussion helps you somehow. But if it's not, please, let me know and I'll shut up, okay?
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-04-2021 at 05:04 PM.

  9. #2859
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    My phoenix rebirth cycle animation is finally over

    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  10. #2860
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    My phoenix rebirth cycle animation is finally over

    This is cool
    Jazmine Sullivan - Pick Up Your Feelings - https://youtu.be/6jOA3h4zSTc

  11. #2861
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    My phoenix rebirth cycle animation is finally over

    That's awesome!
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  12. #2862
    Spectacular Member otipep_90's Avatar
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    Daedra that is amazing! Great job ��
    Last edited by otipep_90; 05-04-2021 at 05:20 PM.

  13. #2863
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    My phoenix rebirth cycle animation is finally over

    Thank you Daedra!

    This is Terrific! Wow!

    I love all of the features, like the Blue Area of the Moon, the twinkling stars, the Earth in the background, Jean flying off into space and the Image of Jean holding the Phoenix in her hand.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  14. #2864
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Thank you Guys, I’m so happy you liked it!
    Hey Phoenixx99, I wanted to put in little elements to make it all feel more alive also it felt right to include some iconic elements from Jean history.
    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  15. #2865
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    Thank you Guys, I’m so happy you liked it!
    Hey Phoenixx99, I wanted to put in little elements to make it all feel more alive also it felt right to include some iconic elements from Jean history.
    You succeeded my friend!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

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