Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Omega_DCD]

that never really made sense to me. Claremont said that her TP increased bc Betsy's added to hers, but Jean wasnt written all that different in terms of her TP. I dont think there was anything done during Revolution that she wasnt capable of before

Yeah that's why I prefer his phrasing in X-Men Black Sun..Jean says she gained Psylocke's "specialized" telepathic abilities...not her strength. Which explains the Phoenix raptor "sum totality" attack, and the Dark Astral form/eye emblem....but I hated that it had no tangible purpose...to me it should have made her completely invisible on the psi-plane or to psychic scans/detection, but nope.

I don’t think so personally. At least not at the beginning of Morrison’s run. Jean herself acknowledges Xavier as the most powerful mind on the planet around the time Cassandra Nova switched bodies with Charles.

To be far, Jean says "greatest" not most powerful, which to me would seem to encompass his high level of skills and experience, along with his power level...also Jean is humble and holds him in high esteem so of course she would refer to him that way, not to mention it's meant to invoke the scope of danger Nova represents

[Mercury]

Thanks to Omega, we know what these numbers mean per the original card set's power rating level definitions.

[MechaJeanix]

I don’t think so personally. At least not at the beginning of Morrison’s run. Jean herself acknowledges Xavier as the most powerful mind on the planet around the time Cassandra Nova switched bodies with Charles.



I personally think she does upgrade to the most powerful around the end of Morrison’s run to Endsong or at exactly Phoenix Resurrection to X-Men: Red era. Scott’s statement in Uncanny X-Men is what supports the idea Jean became so powerful before her death, but the X-Men: Red Annual leads to the idea she finally stopped holding back.

That is fine if you disagree but my reasoning is extremely valid as Jean was described as Xavier to be omega level. At that point he was certainly not described as omega level. So that places her above him at least potentially - depending on the definition of omega mutant. With Hickman's re-definition we can go back and say clearly Jean had surpassed him because her omega power was her telepathy.

Though as you know Jean's powers did seem to increase through the Morrison run due to her expanding Phoenix powers though now that we know Jean is an omega level for telepathy we don't know if the phoenix power boosts her telepathy or just her tk (though when Jean downloaded Xavier's consciousness to hers Xavier does say it shouldn't be possible even for an omega level mutant like her).

In the Seagle/Kelly era Jean was said to have been pushing the limits of her powers and while I guess you could argue that Jean surpassed Xavier during her X-men Red days (which may be hard to determine since Xavier was kind of out of the picture then) we just do not know for sure.

My guess is still the Morrison era. Morrison even said that Jean saw herself as more of an equal to Xavier in that run. She was no longer the student but more of a colleague.

Edit: I should say that in Morrison's run Jean's "omega" ness could have been tied more to her telepathy, both her powers, or her bond with the Phoenix. We really do not know how Morrison interpreted the concept. So all we can do is look back with the definition that Hickman has given in the present.

[Mercury]

As Omega_DCD pointed out in the Omega Level thread - and, coincidentally, I was just reading Jean Grey #11, which this issue in which this happens - Jean was able to control the White Hot Room without being or ever having been possessed by the Phoenix Force.

This adds credence to Destiny's declaration that Jean is "a nexus of probabilities."

[MechaJeanix]

I loved the Teen Jean solo. I know some are iffy on it or of Jean's characterization (both Ghost Jean and Teen Jean) but that book brought me back to reading X-men comics after a long break. I loved the panel where the Phoenix force states Jean was the perfect host and perfect vessel. I love anything that expands or deepens Jean's connection to the Phoenix as I find it an important aspect of the character's story.

Also what I love about Teen Jean - any version really (Bendis, Bunn, or Hopeless) is how strong she was in character and in power. It was a great version of Jean imo and I was so happy when we knew for sure Teen Jean wasn't an alternate reality version but our Jean plucked from the time stream. At one point I was afraid they would become alternate reality versions.

[Mercury]

I loved the Teen Jean solo. I know some are iffy on it or of Jean's characterization (both Ghost Jean and Teen Jean) but that book brought me back to reading X-men comics after a long break. I loved the panel where the Phoenix force states Jean was the perfect host and perfect vessel. I love anything that expands or deepens Jean's connection to the Phoenix as I find it an important aspect of the character's story.

Also what I love about Teen Jean - any version really (Bendis, Bunn, or Hopeless) is how strong she was in character and in power. It was a great version of Jean imo and I was so happy when we knew for sure Teen Jean wasn't an alternate reality version but our Jean plucked from the time stream. At one point I was afraid they would become alternate reality versions.

Frankly, it's dawned on me recently that Jean actually transcends the Phoenix Force. As others have noted, fear and repression play a big part in her refusal to tap into her full capabilities and, dare I say, identity.

I was ruminating on some of what has been shown on-panel and written as canon regarding Jean's powers during the last forty years and, as I wrote above, it dawned on me that she really is on another level. And this is without having to push theories or cling to headcanon. All of the examples below, specifically Destiny's declaration and what she recently did when she traveled back in time, add credence to the theory that, in truth, her capabilities go beyond Omega Levels. Help me out here, PyroFN. What do you think?

How to identify a Beyond Omega Level Mutant:

1. Categorized as having "infinite mental powers"? ✔️



2. Destiny declares you to be "a nexus of probabilities"? ✔️



3. Without being or having been possessed by the Phoenix Force, you can "control its mindscape," the White Hot Room? ✔️

[PyroFN]

I loved the Teen Jean solo. I know some are iffy on it or of Jean's characterization (both Ghost Jean and Teen Jean) but that book brought me back to reading X-men comics after a long break. I loved the panel where the Phoenix force states Jean was the perfect host and perfect vessel. I love anything that expands or deepens Jean's connection to the Phoenix as I find it an important aspect of the character's story.

Also what I love about Teen Jean - any version really (Bendis, Bunn, or Hopeless) is how strong she was in character and in power. It was a great version of Jean imo and I was so happy when we knew for sure Teen Jean wasn't an alternate reality version but our Jean plucked from the time stream. At one point I was afraid they would become alternate reality versions.

I like the solo as well.

People like to point out how Jean comes off as perfect, in which that is something she strives for (whether she realizes it or not), but don’t realize she has her tipping points. Matters like the Phoenix Force are causes for great concern, even though she is close to it. Thus, she has moments of desperation and flashes of her temper that is really overlooked because she strives to be approachable under normal circumstances. X-Men: Red is good at showing Jean’s leadership, compassion, and strategic mind, but it kind made things too easy for Jean. Her solo felt more like a situation where no clear answers were around and radical decisions needed to be made. She crossed lines, felt angry, felt guilt, and yet didn’t diminish that she knew exactly what she was talking about,





It is even shown in the solo itself very subtly Jean’s relationship to it. What cosmic god of destruction stops in the middle of murder to listen to a random spirit? I bet no one aside from Jean fans would have caught that.

[Mercury]

I loved the Teen Jean solo. I know some are iffy on it or of Jean's characterization (both Ghost Jean and Teen Jean) but that book brought me back to reading X-men comics after a long break. I loved the panel where the Phoenix force states Jean was the perfect host and perfect vessel. I love anything that expands or deepens Jean's connection to the Phoenix as I find it an important aspect of the character's story.

Also what I love about Teen Jean - any version really (Bendis, Bunn, or Hopeless) is how strong she was in character and in power. It was a great version of Jean imo and I was so happy when we knew for sure Teen Jean wasn't an alternate reality version but our Jean plucked from the time stream. At one point I was afraid they would become alternate reality versions.

All of this. It really is great that they chose not to retcon her or the rest of the team into being alternate reality versions. As you noted, it expands and deepens her history and abilities profoundly.

I like the solo as well.

People like to point out how Jean comes off as perfect, in which that is something she strives for (whether she realizes it or not), but don’t realize she has her tipping points. Matters like the Phoenix Force are causes for great concern, even though she is close to it. Thus, she has moments of desperation and flashes of her temper that is really overlooked because she strives to be approachable under normal circumstances. X-Men: Red is good at showing Jean’s leadership, compassion, and strategic mind, but it kind made things too easy for Jean. Her solo felt more like a situation where no clear answers were around and radical decisions needed to be made. She crossed lines, felt angry, felt guilt, and yet didn’t diminish that she knew exactly what she was talking about

These same people forget how assertive she has been since her very first appearance. I mean, she spun Beast around mid-air for touching her face in the very first issue, and in subsequent issues during the original 66-issue run, she warned Angel, “Don’t push me too far, Warren…,” stood up to the whole team, holding them all back with her telekinesis to prevent them from intruding on Professor X (#44), and battled it out with Magneto, attacking and, after he tried convincing her to join him, screaming at him, “…the answer is NO,” before destroying his high-tech equipment with her telekinesis (#63). She has always been assertive, and I appreciate that they wrote teenage Jean to be the same.

It is even shown in the solo itself very subtly Jean’s relationship to it. What cosmic god of destruction stops in the middle of murder to listen to a random spirit? I bet no one aside from Jean fans would have caught that.

I found it more telling that she could “control its mindscape,” i.e., the White Hot Room. As I pointed out above, it indicates that her power transcends or, better yet, encompasses the Phoenix Force.

[fridric]

Thanks to Omega, we know what these numbers mean per the original card set's power rating level definitions.

Those stats are wrong: Strength which they don't consider her TK powers contrary someone like Magneto is magnetic lifting power is considered but not Jean for her TK? Also, I wouldn't give her a level 7 for mental Powers because Jean has TK & TP not the rest of the psionic skills(Space/Time/Reality). Only her TP is infinite with the new definition of Omega level mutants. She should be LV 6.

[Daedra]

Those stats are wrong for the Energy Projection(level 1 on contact seriously for a user of TK/TP?) and Strength which they don't consider her TK powers contrary someone like Magneto is magnetic lifting is considered but not Jean for her TK? Also, I wouldn't give her a level 7 for mental Powers because Jean has TK & TP not the rest of the psionic skills(Space/Time/Reality). Only her TP is infinite with the new definition of Omega level mutants. She should be LV 6.

Jean tk will follow along her tp, the only things that matter is her main psionic energy generator, level 7 is actually very accurate, jean power will keep expanding and her tp fueled infinite psionic energies will keep manifesting in new and surprising ways.

[fridric]

Jean tk will follow along her tp, the only things that matter is her main psionic energy generator, level 7 is actually very accurate, jean power will keep expanding and her tp fueled infinite psionic energies will keep manifesting in new and surprising ways.

The problem is ONLY her TP is infinite not her TK! In the Power ratings, I read "nearly infinite powerS", POWERS not power! Jean has 1 infinite power, not 2 infinite power, right?

[Daedra]

The problem is ONLY her TP is infinite not her TK! In the Power ratings, I read "nearly infinite powerS", POWERS not power! Jean has 1 infinite power, not 2 infinite power, right?

Psionic power generated by telepaths can canonically boost any other psionic based super power not only in the original host but even in other individuals as Jean did many times during the revolution era.

[fridric]

Psionic power generated by telepaths can canonically boost any other psionic based super power not only in the original host but even in other individuals as Jean did many times during the revolution era.

That's true she can boost her TK with her TP, which is pure psionic power, BUT, as I wrote it, it's her TP the real infinite power here not her TK!

[Daedra]

Jean’s mental powers (telepathy umbrella) (level 7 infinite omega)

Astral projection
Psionic siphoning
Psionic boosting
Mind blast
Empathy
Mind reading
Mind control
Telemetry
Many more….

Others:
Telekinesis


People can agree or disagree, this is how I see it due to my reading experience.

[fridric]

Jean’s mental powers (telepathy umbrella) (level 7 infinite omega)

Astral projection
Psionic siphoning
Psionic boosting
Mind blast
Empathy
Mind reading
Mind control
Telemetry
Many more….

Others:
Telekinesis

People can agree or disagree, this is how I see it due to my reading experience.[/QUOTE]

It's simple: for example a mutant with the power of Matter Manipulation, her/his mental talent is Matter Manipulation. He/She can manipulate the elements(Elemental Manipulation) which is a SUBSKILLS of Matter Manipulation BUT this subskill will not be considered as a mental talent itself BECAUSE the MAIN(or ONLY) POWER(MENTAL TALENT) is Matter Manipulation, right?
Where you made a mistake, is that you considered the subskills as other mental talents.
But it's normal that someone can easily make this mistake because these subskills exist as independant powers too!
With my own example, Elemental Manipulation can exist independentely as a mental talent too! A user with ONLY the power of Elemental Manipulation would be considered as a mental talent and not a subskill!
Conclusion, ALL DEPENDS OF THE POWER A USER POSSESSES to determine what is a mental talent and what is a subskill ,even if subskill can exist as a mental talent by itself!