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  1. #6031
    Fantastic Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Yeah I feel ya....it just seems the past and current crop of writers do not want to go there at all, despite fans wanting it.
    Yeah, so much for the "BECAUSE YOU DEMANDED IT" days of yore (even if I cynically believe that was never really the case)

  2. #6032
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Just re-read a lot of AvX material and I think I can keep this short.

    Phoenix wasn't non hostile(in this):-It killed a planet coming to Earth.Then everything with Nova.

    Og Phoenix wasn't the same as it is in this story imo.There a lot of changes that while I don't approve of are way too big to ignore.

    Avengers wanted to get her in custody and get her somewhere Phoenix won't be able to reach her or figure out a solution to it.It was time-sensitive since Phoenix was on it's way and cyclops wouldn't listen to their reason.

    Phoenix five were gods giving humans mercy and it's clear they were getting more corrupt with time and not just because of the attacks.

    I agree.But Avengers had all the reasons to do this:-

    1)It destroyed a planet full of life and then Nova barely made it
    2)Cap went to Logan who told him Scott was up to something.Cap wanted them to work together.
    3)He went to Utopia and cyclops was the first one to attack with Physical force.Then magnetic cannonball was the first attack when both teams were ready.
    Cap was talking to scott when he had him down on his knees and easy to take out of the fight.

    And as for Avengers interfering the real reason is because the story wants Avengers in it.
    But in-universe it's because they always have stuff going on, when they don't they will help.That is why they interefred.

    This to me is the best point for Avengers:-
    1)Cyclops's training wasn't gonna do it.We saw in Kun-lun that Hope needed training from Iron fist and the Spider(Spider-man) in particular.Not just any traing, and scott's training would help in combat but he was just kicking her and blasting her.Not the best state of mind.

    2)Again Hope needed Wanda specifically.X-men had nothing to substitute her.It would fail if not for Wanda.

    3)Again if not for the Avengers splitting the phoenix we never would have gotten time to get hope to kun-lun for her training since it would go to hope and as showed above it would not work.It's lucky but Avengers were planning different ways to deal with it and X-men were going for the direct approach.One had a chance of working and it did work out, other is gonna fail.

    They aren't claiming moral high ground.Scott says it's okay to risk the phoenix because it always brings death and destruction but also rebirth.He's justifying a lot of collateral damage including lives and livelyhoods for a long shot which as stated above would not work.
    Avengers wanted to but time to get Hope somewhere same, they wanted to make sure the planet doesn't die or tremendous loss of life doesn't occur.Logan wanted to kill the messiah for which Cap threw him out of the plain.
    And Wanda messed the Avengers up too, Avengers disassembled.And Magneto was the one who killed Quicksilver in a fit of rage which lead to Wanda going No more mutants.Yet magneto is a champion of Krakoa.

    Again, that goes both ways.Where were the X-men when Ultron killed a country.Where were they in the countless battles when the FF, Avengers, Defenders, Spider-man etc. were fighting within an inch of their lives and countless people died.
    That's because they all had stuff to do, it's not like they saw mutants getting killed and said lets get a mimosa.
    This isn't a valid argument.

    I just want to say if anything sounds rude I apologize.And thanks a lot for the post, it's pretty great.
    Normally, I would go point-by-point, but unfortunately my first attempt was too long, so I will have to condense it.

    1) The Phoenix Force isn't being hostile when it destroys a planet. It's the same mindset as when a hurricane arrives. It's a force of nature whose job is to "burn away what doesn't work". That means ensuring life not only exists, but thrives. So things that stagnate growth or threatens the existence of life will be destroyed by the Phoenix. It's a sentient being, so its capable of judging life, but it is never with the goal of aggression or pettiness (unless written by Jason Aaron).

    Thus, when looking at the planet it destroyed, it was a warring planet that had Terrax the Tamer on it. It could be anything about the planet that forced the Phoenix' decision, but with the information available, I could at best, guess that either aliens were deemed a evolutionary dead end or were threats to life on other planets. Whatever the case, the Phoenix being put as an antagonist is going by the mortal perspective of individuals lives being threatened, not a cosmic balance.

    2) Cyclops' did make the first shot, but we cannot act like Captain America was gonna leave peacefully if Scott asked. In fact, he said the exact opposite at the end of the conversation. He took an Avengers army with him and said they were tabling the discussions until he already had Hope Summers contained. That is not coming for conversation or working with Scott. That is taking over the operation on someone else's turf or threatening action. It's apparent if Scott didn't take action, the Avengers would have gained the upper hand.

    3) I do not credit the Avengers for the training of Hope Summers. That suggestion came from the masters of Kun Lun, only agreed by the Tony Stark because the city was held in a dimension that they thought the Phoenix Force would not find her. Had they not went to Tony with the suggestion, they would not have trained Hope Summers.

    And looking at what they actually trained Hope with, nothing there was anything she couldn't get from the X-Men beyond Shao Lao's/Iron Fist's powers. Spider-Man provided her one line about a superheroes responsibility and some physical training. As I said before, the Avengers got very lucky some things fell in line for them to somehow manage to prepare Hope for the Phoenix. Had any of those elements been missing, elements that were not available when the war started, they would have not gotten out as easily as they did before. And I am being very kind when I say they got off easy, since there was worldwide collateral damage, a major death, and the threat of the Phoenix ended only temporarily.

    4) Wanda was not necessary for the Phoenix Force.

    The X-Men have dealt with Dark Phoenix in the past before and every time, all it took was a telepath and an emotional connection with the host. They have never needed her before in the past, nor did things get as bad with the Phoenix Force as it did with AvX on Earth. Meanwhile, lets look at what Wanda did in the event.

    We see her that she can take down 1/5th hosts, yet only one at a time, seeing as she needed to run whenever a second Phoenix Five member would show up. Her limit was clearly seen when Phoenix Cyclops with 1/2 of the Phoenix Force completely no-sells a full-powered hex from Wanda. So, Wanda doesn't have the power to take on the entire Phoenix.

    What is left? She served as emotional support to Hope Summers after.....two interactions. Helping Hope escape and then fighting with Wanda over her actions in House of M. Hope has much better connections in the X-Men than the two interactions with Wanda, such as with Cable, Cyclops, the Five Lights, Rogue, and even, Namor the Submariner had more time spent connecting with Hope than Wanda.

    So, if Wanda is not needed for power against the Phoenix or for an emotional bond, how necessary was she truly in dealing with it?

    Edit: Oh, and I wasn't offended. I am glad have conversation, even when their are disagreements to hear thought processes, so long as its honest and respectful. So far, it has been fine.
    Last edited by PyroFN; 07-28-2021 at 04:16 PM.

  3. #6033
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    I disagree with you on various points and rather than derail the Jean Grey Thread there have been a multitude of AvX threads dedicated to discussing the nuances of this awful event. We can revive that if necessary. No one was right, no one was wrong. Just a whole lot of bad writing all around.
    I mean, he figured this was the best place to learn things about the Phoenix Force and the relationship with the X-Men that would give them any authority to say the Avengers had no right to butt in. A pretty fair question, since the writers of the damn event could not right a single proper conversation.

    I like some concepts from AvX, but the writing was so awful.

  4. #6034
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    Yeah, so much for the "BECAUSE YOU DEMANDED IT" days of yore (even if I cynically believe that was never really the case)
    Agreed, but at least it FELT or SEEMED like they cared about the fans....
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  5. #6035
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    We might get that moment yet...


  6. #6036
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    We might get that moment yet...

    True. I like that cover.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  7. #6037
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Normally, I would go point-by-point, but unfortunately my first attempt was too long, so I will have to condense it.

    1) The Phoenix Force isn't being hostile when it destroys a planet. It's the same mindset as when a hurricane arrives. It's a force of nature whose job is to "burn away what doesn't work". That means ensuring life not only exists, but thrives. So things that stagnate growth or threatens the existence of life will be destroyed by the Phoenix. It's a sentient being, so its capable of judging life, but it is never with the goal of aggression or pettiness (unless written by Jason Aaron).

    Thus, when looking at the planet it destroyed, it was a warring planet that had Terrax the Tamer on it. It could be anything about the planet that forced the Phoenix' decision, but with the information available, I could at best, guess that either aliens were deemed a evolutionary dead end or were threats to life on other planets. Whatever the case, the Phoenix being put as an antagonist is going by the mortal perspective of individuals lives being threatened, not a cosmic balance.

    2) Cyclops' did make the first shot, but we cannot act like Captain America was gonna leave peacefully if Scott asked. In fact, he said the exact opposite at the end of the conversation. He took an Avengers army with him and said they were tabling the discussions until he already had Hope Summers contained. That is not coming for conversation or working with Scott. That is taking over the operation on someone else's turf or threatening action. It's apparent if Scott didn't take action, the Avengers would have gained the upper hand.

    3) I do not credit the Avengers for the training of Hope Summers. That suggestion came from the masters of Kun Lun, only agreed by the Tony Stark because the city was held in a dimension that they thought the Phoenix Force would not find her. Had they not went to Tony with the suggestion, they would not have trained Hope Summers.

    And looking at what they actually trained Hope with, nothing there was anything she couldn't get from the X-Men beyond Shao Lao's/Iron Fist's powers. Spider-Man provided her one line about a superheroes responsibility and some physical training. As I said before, the Avengers got very lucky some things fell in line for them to somehow manage to prepare Hope for the Phoenix. Had any of those elements been missing, elements that were not available when the war started, they would have not gotten out as easily as they did before. And I am being very kind when I say they got off easy, since there was worldwide collateral damage, a major death, and the threat of the Phoenix ended only temporarily.

    4) Wanda was not necessary for the Phoenix Force.

    The X-Men have dealt with Dark Phoenix in the past before and every time, all it took was a telepath and an emotional connection with the host. They have never needed her before in the past, nor did things get as bad with the Phoenix Force as it did with AvX on Earth. Meanwhile, lets look at what Wanda did in the event.

    We see her that she can take down 1/5th hosts, yet only one at a time, seeing as she needed to run whenever a second Phoenix Five member would show up. Her limit was clearly seen when Phoenix Cyclops with 1/2 of the Phoenix Force completely no-sells a full-powered hex from Wanda. So, Wanda doesn't have the power to take on the entire Phoenix.

    What is left? She served as emotional support to Hope Summers after.....two interactions. Helping Hope escape and then fighting with Wanda over her actions in House of M. Hope has much better connections in the X-Men than the two interactions with Wanda, such as with Cable, Cyclops, the Five Lights, Rogue, and even, Namor the Submariner had more time spent connecting with Hope than Wanda.

    So, if Wanda is not needed for power against the Phoenix or for an emotional bond, how necessary was she truly in dealing with it?

    Edit: Oh, and I wasn't offended. I am glad have conversation, even when their are disagreements to hear thought processes, so long as its honest and respectful. So far, it has been fine.
    Thanks for the response.And for anyone wondering I posted this here because this is phoenix related and the people here seem well-versed in all this stuff.
    I'll keep this short

    1)I get what you are saying, but it still killed a planet full of living beings period.And whose to say the phoenix doesn't think humans are a dead end and mutants are the next step and it would willingly kill humans to get their.And this also is the prespective of Cap.
    It is repeatedly stated phoenix has shown interest in Earth's mutant population.

    2)I agree but Cap willingly was talking to Scott even when he had the upper hand.And the only reason he pushed is because it was time sensitive and Cap said they can talk about all this after.But if phoenix gets to hope it would be disastrous(Explained later).

    3)Agreed, but that only happened because the Avengers split the phoenix and got hope back from Utopia.And Iron Fist was a part of their group who has a strong relationship with Kun-Lun.That's the thing, cap said they will find a solution but they need hope.The phoenix buster gave them the time to get Hope to Kun-lun.If not for the Avengers Hope wouldn't have had that time.

    Again off panel training.We didn't see most of it.And the training was different from cyclops who was just kicking and blasting her.
    And we know it only works with Iron Fist and Spider-man since we saw the masters of Kun-lun say so.

    I agree, but Scott was a guaranteed failure while the Avengers were trying to get time and try multiple solutions and they have multiple sources like Nova, Thor, Iron Man,Iron Fist,Wanda.The chances of finding a solution are not bad.

    And Avengers mistakes were all to save the planet.Scott was willing to risk a lot of lives for a long shot at restarting the mutant race(which ruined a lot more lives for a while before krakoa and even then someone like Cosmar is still worse for it, it's not like it re-powered decimation mutants, it created new ones whose lives just got a lot more dangerous).

    Intent matters as well.That's why I don't bring up Phoenix five, even though they were getting corrputed they held onto their power but they were trying to make a better world for everyone.
    Same way phoenix buster was to save the planet and it kinda did.

    4)She was though.No more Phoenix wasn't emotional support.Even tony states that they both(Wanda and hope) needed to be pointed in the same direction.

    Again, even on the moon when Hope asked to be killed cyclops took out Wolverine before he could.Not exactly convinced the X-men had this in the bag.Desperation was clouding there judgement.

    She doesn't but Wanda and Hope together do.That's how they deal with it.That's the 12th issue.I did re-read it yesterday and Wanda is necessary.

    Yeah, Avengers did get lucky but they has a clearer prespective and better chances than the X-men.I mean if Rachel was a bigger part of this I'd feel differently but she was barely utilized.
    As Cap said scott was way to close to this as seen in the Hope asking to be killed and him stopping it even though it's clear she's about to loose control.He was willing to risk it all, millions of lives.He was depserate and that made him do stupid things.
    And Scott was right that Cap was too far, but they had a lot of resources and people from different backgrounds and they are used to handle these type of things.Cap being too far is why he's best for this.But it also means that he should do more which he does try to.

    I feel both are right and wrong.In Phoenix instant I'd give it to the Avengers mainly because the X-men were willing to go as way too far and weren't trying to deal with Phoenix but use it but overall both have to do better.
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 07-28-2021 at 09:30 PM.

  8. #6038
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Thanks for the response.And for anyone wondering I posted this here because this is phoenix related and the people here seem well-versed in all this stuff.
    I'll keep this short

    1)I get what you are saying, but it still killed a planet full of living beings period.And whose to say the phoenix doesn't think humans are a dead end and mutants are the next step and it would willingly kill humans to get their.And this also is the prespective of Cap.
    It is repeatedly stated phoenix has shown interest in Earth's mutant population.

    2)I agree but Cap willingly was talking to Scott even when he had the upper hand.And the only reason he pushed is because it was time sensitive and Cap said they can talk about all this after.But if phoenix gets to hope it would be disastrous(Explained later).

    3) Agreed, but that only happened because the Avengers split the phoenix and got hope back from Utopia.And Iron Fist was a part of their group who has a strong relationship with Kun-Lun.That's the thing, cap said they will find a solution but they need hope.The phoenix buster gave them the time to get Hope to Kun-lun.If not for the Avengers Hope wouldn't have had that time.

    Again off panel training.We didn't see most of it.And the training was different from cyclops who was just kicking and blasting her.
    And we know it only works with Iron Fist and Spider-man since we saw the masters of Kun-lun say so.

    I agree, but Scott was a guaranteed failure while the Avengers were trying to get time and try multiple solutions and they have multiple sources like Nova, Thor, Iron Man,Iron Fist,Wanda.The chances of finding a solution are not bad.

    And Avengers mistakes were all to save the planet.Scott was willing to risk a lot of lives for a long shot at restarting the mutant race(which ruined a lot more lives for a while before krakoa and even then someone like Cosmar is still worse for it, it's not like it re-powered decimation mutants, it created new ones whose lives just got a lot more dangerous).

    Intent matters as well.That's why I don't bring up Phoenix five, even though they were getting corrputed they held onto their power but they were trying to make a better world for everyone.
    Same way phoenix buster was to save the planet and it kinda did.

    4)She was though.No more Phoenix wasn't emotional support.Even tony states that they both(Wanda and hope) needed to be pointed in the same direction.

    Again, even on the moon when Hope asked to be killed cyclops took out Wolverine before he could.Not exactly convinced the X-men had this in the bag.Desperation was clouding there judgement.

    She doesn't but Wanda and Hope together do.That's how they deal with it.That's the 12th issue.I did re-read it yesterday and Wanda is necessary.

    Yeah, Avengers did get lucky but they has a clearer prespective and better chances than the X-men.I mean if Rachel was a bigger part of this I'd feel differently but she was barely utilized.
    As Cap said scott was way to close to this as seen in the Hope asking to be killed and him stopping it even though it's clear she's about to loose control.He was willing to risk it all, millions of lives.He was depserate and that made him do stupid things.
    And Scott was right that Cap was too far, but they had a lot of resources and people from different backgrounds and they are used to handle these type of things.Cap being too far is why he's best for this.But it also means that he should do more which he does try to.

    I feel both are right and wrong.In Phoenix instant I'd give it to the Avengers mainly because the X-men were willing to go as way too far and weren't trying to deal with Phoenix but use it but overall both have to do better.
    1) By Jason Aaron’s pen, and not contradicted by writers, it already does. Humanity is a bunch of pests to it and it was Jean Grey’s morality and potential that convinced it of mutant’s potential. That is why a host I required to give it perspective and control. With all that said, that still falls under the guidelines of its purpose. Hostilities really only come in when you get in it’s way, like keeping it from its host or it’s purpose.

    2) Except Cap wasn’t opening a discussion. He was insulting Scott the whole time: calling him the most foolish Cap had ever seen him be, that Scott chose this fight, that Scott needed to put his pride aside, to think about Jean, and that all Cap knew was that Scott was endangering the whole world.

    That is not a conversation on willing to even discuss things or try to build bridges. Cap was not in the mood to work with Scott. It’s either he follows Cap’s lead or Cap makes him.

    3) I really can’t see why you are veiling splitting the Phoenix as a good thing. It was never in the plan for the Avengers and only served to complicate matters on their end, with a result of it reforming anyways after so much casualty and collateral.

    The only thing I think could be said is successful about it is that Hope didn’t become a Phoenix host. If it’s in that respect, I guess we could call it a success, but considering the Avengers were looking to drive the Phoenix from Earth one way or the other, I don’t see that as a good thing on both sides of the war.

    4) If you are gonna use off-panel training as an excuse, Cyclops should be allotted that same courtesy. We saw one training session. And unlike Spider-Man, who had all the time to train Hope in a meaningful way, Scott did not get that courtesy. We cannot simply believe him training Hope was only amounting to him “blasting at her” as you put it. It’s unfair and worse when Spider-Man is given a benefit we do not see on-panel, but all your willing to give Scott is one session.

    Answer this question: If Scott has a literal psychic rapport with a Phoenix host, having intimate knowledge of her exact mindset as she goes through her changes from normal self to Phoenix to Dark Phoenix and having successfully saved the Earth from the threat of Phoenix, why would his knowledge be devalued? Because the Masters are martial artists? Cause Spider-Man was said to be the answer via foresight?

    Hope really would have been fine with Cyclops. The fact that her training was interrupted is why she wasn’t fine when the Phoenix arrived. Not because Scott’s training was inefficient.

    5) You keep saying Scott was a guaranteed failure, but you have no evidence displaying this. All evidence based on character interactions and actions show everything going downhill when the Avengers meddled. Like I said, there is not one bit of evidence showing the Avengers were right.

    6) It wasn’t a long shot at all. It was literally confirmed in that same event that the Phoenix was coming to restart the mutant race. There was no other motive but that.

    And please don’t point out that there are mutants suffering from their powers. You are basically saying it was a mistake to make mutants by using that as your point, which is ignoring the many mutants living happily on Krakoa, outweighing the few actually suffering from their powers. It’s a learning process, but they are working on helping those mutants learn to control their powers and live with them because that is how you deal with your problems. Not wish they never existed. Costar is a young mutant influenced by her vanity who will learn to appreciate what she is in her story. The story of Cosmar is not preaching a message that being a mutant is a mistake that should never have happened.

    7) ‘No More Phoenix’ is not something Wanda can ever do on her own. If Hope had not agreed to Wanda’s plea, she would have ended up fighting Hope and would have lost badly. Wanda even states that Hope has to be the one to let it go. Hope combining the powers of Wanda, Shao Lao, and her authority over the Phoenix is what stopped the Phoenix.

    I do give Wanda credit by calling her as the support. She was most likely guiding Hope in using the ‘No More…’ spell, but Wanda can’t really take credit when she can’t affect half of the entity with her full power.
    Last edited by PyroFN; 07-28-2021 at 11:59 PM.

  9. #6039
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    1) By Jason Aaron’s pen, and not contradicted by writers, it already does. Humanity is a bunch of pests to it and it was Jean Grey’s morality and potential that convinced it of mutant’s potential. That is why a host I required to give it perspective and control. With all that said, that still falls under the guidelines of its purpose. Hostilities really only come in when you get in it’s way, like keeping it from its host or it’s purpose.

    2) Except Cap wasn’t opening a discussion. He was insulting Scott the whole time: calling him the most foolish Cap had ever seen him be, that Scott chose this fight, that Scott needed to put his pride aside, to think about Jean, and that all Cap knew was that Scott was endangering the whole world.

    That is not a conversation on willing to even discuss things or try to build bridges. Cap was not in the mood to work with Scott. It’s either he follows Cap’s lead or Cap makes him.

    3) I really can’t see why you are veiling splitting the Phoenix as a good thing. It was never in the plan for the Avengers and only served to complicate matters on their end, with a result of it reforming anyways after so much casualty and collateral.

    The only thing I think could be said is successful about it is that Hope didn’t become a Phoenix host. If it’s in that respect, I guess we could call it a success, but considering the Avengers were looking to drive the Phoenix from Earth one way or the other, I don’t see that as a good thing on both sides of the war.

    4) If you are gonna use off-panel training as an excuse, Cyclops should be allotted that same courtesy. We saw one training session. And unlike Spider-Man, who had all the time to train Hope in a meaningful way, Scott did not get that courtesy. We cannot simply believe him training Hope was only amounting to him “blasting at her” as you put it. It’s unfair and worse when Spider-Man is given a benefit we do not see on-panel, but all your willing to give Scott is one session.

    Answer this question: If Scott has a literal psychic rapport with a Phoenix host, having intimate knowledge of her exact mindset as she goes through her changes from normal self to Phoenix to Dark Phoenix and having successfully saved the Earth from the threat of Phoenix, why would his knowledge be devalued? Because the Masters are martial artists? Cause Spider-Man was said to be the answer via foresight?

    Hope really would have been fine with Cyclops. The fact that her training was interrupted is why she wasn’t fine when the Phoenix arrived. Not because Scott’s training was inefficient.

    5) You keep saying Scott was a guaranteed failure, but you have no evidence displaying this. All evidence based on character interactions and actions show everything going downhill when the Avengers meddled. Like I said, there is not one bit of evidence showing the Avengers were right.

    6) It wasn’t a long shot at all. It was literally confirmed in that same event that the Phoenix was coming to restart the mutant race. There was no other motive but that.

    And please don’t point out that there are mutants suffering from their powers. You are basically saying it was a mistake to make mutants by using that as your point, which is ignoring the many mutants living happily on Krakoa, outweighing the few actually suffering from their powers. It’s a learning process, but they are working on helping those mutants learn to control their powers and live with them because that is how you deal with your problems. Not wish they never existed. Costar is a young mutant influenced by her vanity who will learn to appreciate what she is in her story. The story of Cosmar is not preaching a message that being a mutant is a mistake that should never have happened.

    7) ‘No More Phoenix’ is not something Wanda can ever do on her own. If Hope had not agreed to Wanda’s plea, she would have ended up fighting Hope and would have lost badly. Wanda even states that Hope has to be the one to let it go. Hope combining the powers of Wanda, Shao Lao, and her authority over the Phoenix is what stopped the Phoenix.

    I do give Wanda credit by calling her as the support. She was most likely guiding Hope in using the ‘No More…’ spell, but Wanda can’t really take credit when she can’t affect half of the entity with her full power.
    1)I mean death and destruction followed by rebirth.Scott said that, and having a extremely powerful cosmic identity that has no care for humans on or near earth is a concern.

    2)Cap saw Nova crashing, they guy was within an inch of his life.After killing the planet full of life.Even then he went to Logan who told him Scott has an agenda.
    Even then instead of taking him by surprise he went down to talk.

    I'm not saying he wasn't going to fight if Scott didn't shoot.I'm saying given the time-sensitive circumstances he tried to be calm and talk it out.
    He was trying to get Scott to see that his judgement is clouded.Cap was too far away as scott said by Cap was right in Scott was to close.

    3)Yeah, anything to keep the phoenix from Hope is a win in my book.

    4)Fair enough.And Spider-man had what? a couple weeks at max IIRC in a city in an alt. dimension and they were constantly losing Avengers.
    Scott had his own fortress with which he was familar and so much experience with the phoenix.
    I'm not saying it was easy for Scott, but it wasn't easy for the others either.

    And we saw Scott and Spider-man/IF had very different approaches to training as well.

    They aren't just master of martial art, they have immense experience in destiny and visions.It's in a lot of IF books specially Matt Fractions IIRC.

    And Spider-training her isn't out of the blue.Aside from his massive number of adventures and his run-ins with cosmic forces like Uni-power and beating the living spirit of vengance and surprising Mephisto and the Beyonder and his will was so strong as to influence and warp the Nexus of All Realities, a transcendent plane of being encompassing all of Marvel.

    But Most importantly he was the one who talked down Wolverine when he was Dark Phoenix and Wolverine says it was Spider-man who was responsible for the win.It was in Astonishing Spider-man and wolverine.He has already helped in a major way against phoenix.

    And it's also a good point for why wolverine is a good person to go for Phoenix related stuff, he was dark phoenix.It's canon.

    And a short while(minutes) after Avengers arrive Hope gets a phoenix flash? in a big way.The only reason Spider-man and IF got time to train Hope was because of Splitting the PF.

    And hope got a stronger flash on the moon and said she couldn't control it and asked Logan to kill him.I doubt Cyclops training her for a few more minutes would change that.

    5)Above evidence why Scott training would fail + Wanda explained below.I agree, it went downhill but if they didn't interfere then it would be even worse with a Hope unable to control the phoenix and a Scott unwilling to accept this and kill her as we saw.

    And they were, with their training and Wanda they prevented the mess that would happen otherwise.Not saying they didn't make mistakes.

    6)Again at what cost, and even if no destruction would happen it woudn't work because I just proved why Hope couldn't control it.

    No, I'm saying creating new mutants when that's only putting them in jeoprady was something Scott should have thought about.He wanted to create more mutants but didn't think of how it will play out if he was succesfull.
    It's just a side-point, nothing to do with my main argument.I understand Scott was under much burden and needed a big win.

    7)I never said so.But Hope couldn't do it alone either.the Entire ending is them doing it together.They literally say this in narration.One can't do it without the other.It wasn't just support.
    They literally say look what they can do when pointed at each other.

    "Wanda's hew blasts were the only thing that truly hurts him (Dark phoenix), hope is mimicking and channeling it into a version of the Iron fist".This is a direct quote from AvX 12.
    Wanda is the only one who is hurting it.Hope was using Wanda's hexes as well.

    As the phoenix was let go by Wanda+Hope(using Wanda's powers w/IF and her training).Not just Hope using Wanda for emotional support.Wanda+Hope.They are both needed, that's the point.

    To recap:-

    1)Scott's training wouldn't work since a)We know she need training by Spider-man[dealt with a dark phoenix wolverine single handedly] and Iron Fist
    b)They needed Wanda for her hexes and so hope can mimick them.They needed to work together to let PF go
    c)We saw hope unable to control PF on the moon(already explained why Scott would only get minutes more of Training with her)

    2)I do agree both sides should have done better but I would argue while Avengers lack experience with PF the X-judgement was clouded(scott stopping wolverine from killing an out of control hope with PF asking to be killed) and Avengers did pull through but needed a lot of lucky, luckily they had it.

  10. #6040
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Let's get it together people. Read it, know it, love it:


  11. #6041
    Incredible Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Let's get it together people. Read it, know it, love it:

    beautiful, thank you for sharing!

  12. #6042
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Let's get it together people. Read it, know it, love it:

    Yes, true perfection!

    This should answer any and all questions concerning Jean.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  13. #6043
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Let's get it together people. Read it, know it, love it:

    This makes a lot of sense since in the og 5 Jean was the one most loyal to the dream for the longest IIRC:-

    1)Cyclops:-I don't think I need to say
    2)Beast:-I don't think I need to say
    3)Angle:-Archangel stuff while out of his control and then being reborn messed him up
    4)Iceman:-Not that he wasn't loyal, just didn't have that big a impact

  14. #6044
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    It's also important to point out that Jean was the student Xavier trusted most with his first big secret.








  15. #6045
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    He has always trusted her deeply.


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