Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[GMikey]

GMikey, WallStreeter and Omega_DCD, I have to log off but I'll try to reply to you later.

Have fun, guys.

see ya!

[Grinning Soul]

My apologies. I should have proofread. Autocorrect on my IPhone does weird things.

Don’t worry. It happens. I just couldn’t reply to that part because I wasn’t sure what you meant.

I was saying that all these all powerful mutants can blow up the universe but cannot save their friends, all because later writers were lazy and kept trying to rehash Dark Phoenix.

I’m happy to see both Jean and Hope along with other mutants helped bring life to a world instead of killing it off.

Marvel and Fox got obsessed with repeating variations of DOFP (two futures in the films where the X-Men all die or w even three if you count the tv series Gifted). Dark Phoenix got done twice by Fox and it was an epic failure the second time.

There’s the garbage that was Endsong, Phoenix Resurrection, and AvX.

The fact that people cannot be bothered to even talk to Jean before deciding her resurrection is going to result in Dark Phoenix was horrible overdone and includes the Shi’ar kidnapping Jean.

In the comics DOFP got overdone too. The original DOFP, the sequel involving the FF, the DOFP storyline in Excalibur, the rise of Bastion, the rounding up of mutants after the Scarlet Witch’s decimation etc.

Speaking of decimation, it lead to another DOFP event by Bastion. Then there was the aterricen must decimation. Then was another future where many X-Men died at war with the Inhumans and this was erased by Negasonic Warhead.

The X-Men comics were no longer number one in sales, X-Men Apocalypse failed because of horrible writing and the constant need to have Magneto go back and forth between good and evil, and the Fox franchise failed spectacularly with Dark Phoenix and New Mutants.

It’s obvious why Hickman was hired to reboot the franchise and come up with new stuff. The status quo of X-Men was failing horribly and if Marvel just tried to please X-fans on old stories it would run the X-Men out of business.

Yeah… so they got stuck in a self-devouring cycle of repeating the same stories when it comes to the Phoenix and DOFP and other smaller ones. I agree.

But since M-Day, we’ve been stuck in the “endagered species” and/or “humans want to kill us all” cycle. On that, Hickman’s “reboot of the franchise” as you called did little to change. He put mutants in a more advantageous position (that’s different), but the core is still the same conflict.

Since M-Day, the X-Men aren’t about the X-Men anymore but the fate of all mutants. Not even when they get a win (mutants appearing again at the end of AvX), they get to keep it. And they don’t get to keep it because the conflict needs to be there and be somewhat manageable.

Hickman’s run has been suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper extended with all those filler stories between HoX/PoX and Inferno because this conflict is not sustainable in the long run.

And until Marvel drops this angle that X-Men comics have to be about mutantdom as a whole, we’ll be stuck in this different cycle of self-devouring.

[GMikey]

Now, this worries me to be honest. Jean doesn’t need more “depth”, in my opinion. She’s already very tridimensional and paradoxical in many aspects that actually make sense. She’s already very nuanced and complex. Having certain aspects of her personality “rewritten” is definitely something that I wouldn’t want to see.

I do like situations in which power alone can’t be the solution, though.

Well there are those who feel she does in a different direction. the project creators, esp my boss have all stated that Jean Grey's depth has relied way too much on the Phoenix and nothing much of her own merit. my boss has often said if we were to remove every plot involving the Phoenix from Jean, there wouldnt be much to her character. she rather develop Jean as a character more on her own merit and not have the Phoenix define her so much.

The only thing "rewritten" with Jean's new development is simply plots that explore the more infrequently observed plot of the all around good hero, having hidden vices that are not apparent due to one's overall good nature. my boss actually wants Jean to serve as an opposite to the actual focus character, the idea is to explore how a tormented soul (the spotlight X-Man) or someone who's life has been fraught with pain and chaos leading them to making very poor life choices, isnt evil in nature and has the willpower to overcome their past and be the hero they truly are. she says Jean being the opposite reflection would represent the all around good natured, insightful, and powerful hero, she's the one everyone loves and embraces (where the spotlight X-Man is definitely not) but has to realize mistakes and errors in judgement are possible as "no one is perfect". and the errors of her making would be morally based, which offers something unique and very different.

i think this would be a great development for Jean personally. it explores someone so good natured that their inner vices arent apparent, and these unusual type of idiosyncrasies would cause error in judgement and wrong choices rooted in almost a sanctimonious sense. that's a great narrative for the "all good hero" against one that is an "antihero".

I could guess that before I even got to this part.

I often see this argument that heroic types are boring. Antiheroes are interesting.

I think antiheroes are easier to write, so you end up with a bigger proportion of heroes who are boring. But heroes can be as complex and tridimensional as any anti-hero. And anti-heroes can be super plain and boring as well.

GOOD antiheroes are NOT easy to write as i myself have seen them done wrong multiple times. the all good hero is far easier to write imo. antiheroes are only boring due to the writer not understanding what MAKES an antihero in the first place. its why Birds of Prey was a failure, but Joker was perfection. i do agree that regular heroes can be just as layered as antiheroes. her reimagining of Steve Rogers/Captain America would be an example for her writing. Steve is is portrayed as a pure in nature, but his background and overall narrative is so traumatic, that it clouts his judgement and decisions from pure confusion and even questioning if "true justice" is real. where she takes his character from her writing seems very rich and tight development wise, yet he's an example of not having to be an "antihero" to be interesting.

There’s a difference between a dark character, a dark setting and a dark tone, right? You can have a very bright character in a very dark setting and still have a tone to the story that is inspiring and hopeful. An example of that would be the film Life is Beautiful.

You get what I mean? Dark backstories don’t necessarily create a dark character. Dark characters can come from perfect life backgrounds.

A dark setting doesn’t necessary lead to a dark story. And vice versa.

In the end, it’s all about the tone, the approach the writer decides to give the story.

yes i totally get what you mean and my boss understands this principle. but for what she wants to explore with the "focus X-Man" the story simply works better with a "dark character" from a "dark backstory".

the story isn't overall dark and brooding, but many foundational elements are. I LOVE her version of Peter Parker and what inspires him to become Spiderman, and Robbie Reyes as Ghost Rider. even Miles Morales is in this universe too, and his evolution is pretty cool and different a bit from canon. what inspires them dives in dark territory, but they are all amongst the more lighthearted characters. Clint Barton and Sam Wilson serve as class clowns a bit and partners in crime which is cute, but they have very heavy back stories.

“Dark, gritty and chaotic” could work wonders for Jean except if you’d need to have Jean transform into a character who is like that in their core. Then, indeed, it’s better to choose a different character.

I’m always a bit reticent when a writer has a “vision” for a character, but I’m always willing to give it a fair shot to whatever has Jean in it. And if we’re not talking about 616 Jean, then I’m much less annoying.

as you said Jean would have to be a vastly different character, which is why this massive arc for the spotlight X-Man would NOT work for Jean. the character chosen is unexpected but very refreshing. she's reimagined the canon areas of their backstory in such an intriguing and exciting way, and married with the high concept plot devices and new development, takes the MU as a whole in a refreshing, innovative direction that I've not seen period.

Jean does not at all change at the core, and no need to be worried over a "vision" of where her character is concerned. the only changes there are or "vision" if you will, is simply Jean's narrative focusing more on her leadership abilities (one spoiler I will offer, Xavier dies way earlier on, and Jean pursues his dream of her opening her own school, a nod to canon), a decision maker for the team, being a mentor and voice for mutant wellfare. Power wise, her powers are made to be more tactful than just "OP for the sake of" and even exploration of her encountering things she can't overcome with psychic power alone (which is where characters possessing "high concept" powers come in), the writer would explore her thought process in overcoming or getting around said obstacles.

also NO love triangles are involved here. only one time does it kinda happen and its when the team sorta falls apart. but even then it revoles around differences and clashing of opinions, NOT bc love triangles and crap like that. again more grounded circumstances.

The X-Man in question that serves as the spotlight, is the one my boss reimagines a LOT. their narrative goes into extreme territories, and a lot of these "high concept" plots, plot devices omniverse level chaos and lots of exploration of existentialism. the X-Man of her choice is said to possess a superpower that would actually be the most powerful in potential (based in mysticism) yet has been very underrated and severely untapped in all of canon. that's where the "high concept" stuff comes into play, the redefining of "beyond omega" mutants, and many other different ideas altogether.

Speaking about Jean tho we'll get a character more grounded, more "relatable", and her character explored based on her own merit and not only being defined by her in possession of an OP force. we'd get her as an actual character in her own right. is it perfect? probably not, but thats why i'm here to iron out those kinks

the VAST majority of the think tank AND the Marvel's own private fanclub, embrace these ideas but i'm for one that want as many opinons as possible

[Grinning Soul]

Then a break may be a good idea, Hickman has plans for at least three year of stories but the good news is that after that he mostly tries to leave the franchise with some new elements so other writers can built from there.

Exactly.

I agree that´s why I think it would be good for this run to show more nuanced and neutral povs otherwise it looks unrealistic

Unrealistic and ridiculously biased. But it works to convince most readers who don’t think about the stories they’re reading and instead just accept whatever is presented to them.

I used to think Excalibur would not have a big impact on this run but after X of Swords I think any of the current titles can impact the rest or even became a crossover because of the way they are working together and Onslaught and the bad mental state of Krakoa´s mutants is big enough to warrant repercussions on other parts of the current run and Spurrier said he and Hickman have been doing some work together so yes, Way of X is definitely going to impact the current run.

Let’s hope so.

It as flexing on a big scale which they may believe is good to keep Orchis from wanting to attack but they are allienating their allies and it´s definitely something they need to address.

Except mutants have Moira on their side. They know they had a colony on Mars before and it didn’t stop Orchis, so they know this flex didn’t serve as intimidating tactics then. Therefore intimidation was not what motivated them now.

You talked about people wanting to join Orchis because of this, Orchis wants to do a genocide of mutants, they have not hidden this at any point, that´s why I say no action really warrants this kind of response for much flexing the mutants do so I really don´t see other human groups joining with them for this reason alone, because again, they are not like Orchis.

For people who were already on the fence because of what mutants were doing or saying? Yeah, renaming Mars, taking it for themselves (determining where people can land and the laws of the place means exactly that = it belongs to mutants now), terraforming it, calling it the capital of Sol and announcing a regent for the system?

You do realise this puts Earth under Mars’ rule, right? Or at least that’s what they’re saying it does. Of course people from Earth will not accept that. Or course they’ll prepare for war in case war comes and of course they’ll be willing to support a horrible organisation that has been fighting mutants and warning humanity about them.

It is indeed *not* justifiable yet. But humans have no reason to believe it won’t be when mutants are claiming rule over them.

And yeah, yeah, there comes the “whataboutism” of humans having done it to mutants first. But the difference is that humanity was never united in oppressing mutants. They were never united in defending them either - true, but there was no unified effort to subjugate them. Quite the contrary, there was always resistance and push back from friendly nations and politicians.

I will see what Moira really meant when she said "mutants always lose" but the thing is that during all her lifes she either keep an anti-mutant perspective, a coexistence perspective and an anti-human perspective, in all her lives she really has not made a priority to unify humanity(mutants and humans in the same place) because this has been proven almost impossible to do but the interesting thing is that her current mission involves something Nimrod and the Librarian, her enemies asked of her, to save Earth from the Phalanx so while I am sure Moira kept some things from Charles and Magneto, she doesn´t meant to do an attack humanity.

I don’t know what she meant to do, but the creation of Krakoa is what triggered the Orchis protocols in the first place, so she certainly isn’t trying to prevent the conflict. Therefore, I don’t know why she wouldn’t be up to speeding it up so mutants can fight against humans before humans gain the technological advancements that allows them to keep winning.

Their plan is to stop any kind of War from starting in the first place, how well they are going around doing that could be argued but their main interest is to stop the war from starting.

If that was true, they shouldn’t have created Krakoa. Moira knows that is the trigger.

Magneto already developed a sanctuary for humans on Island M, it was neccesary because King in Black was killing everybody but I get your point about them still wanting just mutants to life on the main Krakoa island thats´s why I want Kurt to be succesful, Kurt´s way is supposed to be a response to an entity that´s making mutants show their worst sentiments of revenge, anger and hate so if he´s succeful I am sure they will go addresing the wrong they themselves have been doing and how quickly they have changed their perspective and this would allow them to finally heal those feelings of anger and helpleness and make something positive out of it.

I really doubt this will happen while Magneto, Charles and Moira are steering Krakoa’s path. But we’ll have to see.

Well, you will. I’ll probably have stopped before we get there.

[Grinning Soul]

To be fair that´s what Sue made of it.

Sue asked Scott and he didn’t say “No”. He was looking for words because he didn’t have them, because he knew his position - what he had just said - meant exactly that.

This is how the dialogue goes:

- Scott: I assure you, we don't know where your children are. I know your meeting went... poorly... and I understand Charles and Erik can be a little intense but they're not kidnappers.
- Reed: I know they're not, Cyclops. But their agenda is clear -- your agenda is clear. Krakoa is for all mutants, and you want them all to join you. Franklin wanted to go, and I have no doubt you'd let him, despite our wishes as parents because we're human.
- Scott: Reed, we respect you and everything your team has done for the world of humans and mutants, so believe me when I say your children are not here. And to be perfectly clear Krakoa is Franklin's birthright, but not Valeria's. We're not an island of runaway humans.
- Sue: One's better than the other, is that it?
- Scott: Um-- Sue?
- Sue: Of my children. You value the life of Franklin over Valeria. My genius daughter wouldn't be allowed in your paradise compound because she's not pure enough for you. Not mutant. You value her life less. All your actions make that perfectly clear. So, tell me, Scott why should we believe you?
- Scott: I'm not-- Sue, you do not want to--

Yeah, he just babbles because he doesn't want to lie and say she's wrong. Because he knows she's not wrong. Because they would indeed let Franklin go to Krakoa despite what his parents wanted. Because Valeria would indeed not be welcomed there because of her genes. Because the second they learnt Franklin wasn't a mutant, they rescinded the invitation.

Do I want to see Scott in this position ever again? Hell no.

and a not a lot of fans liked the characterization of both groups in that crossover, the X-men were just hateful and the FF4 keep feeling they had the right to attack them on their home just because they suspected them of kidnaping it was the classic lest make our characters OC so they fight like AvX.

It was a mess. But the X-Men were the Avengers in this particular AvX.

If she wanted them to have their own representation and make deals with Namor to have a place underseas then she wanted to built a country there´s no getting around this, the only difference is the tone in which she said this but what she wanted to do was not much different than Cyclops Utopia, Genosha or Krakoa and this is why I am not agaist them having their own place on principle because it makes sense, what´s not neccesary is for them to keep themselves appart from the rest of the world.

That part only came about after they were being chased. When Jean first addressed the UN, she said:

- Jean: With respect to the ambassador from the United Kingdom, if you're treating us as one group, then we need to speak as one group. And every time mutants have come together to live in one place -- Genosha, Utopia -- we have simply made ourselves a bigger target. Whevener mutantkind has tried to live alone, apart, we have been slaughtered.

So, based on the fact that Jean seems to see the problem of isolation clearly, I really don't think she envisioned mutants living alone and apart yet again. That was definitely *not* her plan.

That part of living underseas only came about after they were being chased. It was a temporary sanctuary, not the end goal. It only became needed because, as Jean puts it in the same issue where Namor helps her establishing this sanctuary:

- Jean: Out there, someone is deliberately stoking hatred and violence against mutants. They want a world where our race is wiped out. But they have no idea what they're facing (...) We're going to face opposition. Some people will try to tear us down. But we are X-Men. We know there's a better way. And we are going to change the world. Our new mutant nation starts here.

It starts there but it’s not going to stay there. That was just the HQ of the resistance so to speak. But once Cassandra was defeated, Jean actually invited her to join her plan and then she goes back to the UN and talks again about unity between mutants and humans.

It is *very* different than Genosha and Utopia because in its very proposal, she doesn’t want to it be a separation between mutants and humans, “us and them”. Just “us”.

Curiously from all those countries the only one that had a mixed human and mutant population was Genosha so it would be nice to see if they try this again, especially since it´s canon mutants also can have human babies and they can´t just built a context in which those children would feel isolated because of the way they were born,it´s also the problem I have with Hickman´s current run, it doesn´t make sense for all of them to be mutants and for no human to be born already on the island, it contradicts the traditional canon and on this instance this canon would add some needed nuance to the story.

Yeah. Like I said before. This whole idea of “endangered species” is absolute BS. Mutants and humans are too genetically similar to be two different species. The only real, feasible, pragmatic path is co-existence. And it’s time someone, *anyone*, realised it.

Just because they were successful at implementing the dream of co-existence, it doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea.

They weren’t successful at implementing mutant nations either. Why does it seem more pragmatic?

It makes no sense.

Still he wasn´t surprised when he asked Steve what he thought about it, same with Illyana and Dr Strange so they already knew.

He knew something big was coming, but he didn’t know what. Unless he was lying.

I want to believe he wasn’t lying, but nowadays… I don’t know.

I think we will see more of her pov on X-men #1 that´s why I didn´t like her and Storm not talking on Planet Size it would have helped to give us what are they really thinking.

I think Duggan will just jump in the action and we’ll not see much of it other than some comments about the election.

I hope I’m wrong, though.

Way of X was already planned before the pandemic and it was pushed back for a few months until they saw it´s chance after X of Swords, writers usually plance ahead their storylines and get in contact with the artist often so I think they have time to talk things out and I liked to see Spurrier raising the same points I had problem on the current run so my guess is that he will address them in a fair way.

It was planned, but judging by his interviews, Spurrier brought his own pitch to the book. So… things might have changed. The writers have often talked about how they work with broad strokes when it comes to the general direction and adapt as the writers bring in their particular ideas.

So it’s possible there was some problems that resulted from the timing in which those issues were written.

I’m not saying it’s the case, though. I just don’t know.

Yes I think they are saying to us were the next crossover will happen but at least it will begin on Mars so the rest of humanity would be safe at the beggining. I really don´t want X of Swords part 2 but I think we will see it, still they make some way in getting a good relationship and the respect of the mutants from Arakko and that´s also a good thing. Now if they just did the same with the rest of humanity it would be nice but I suspect that´s what the new X-men team is for.

It certainly won’t be for now. Moving Arakko to Mars bought the Krakoans some time.

No, only them can teach themselves to change their ways, no one else can do it for them and after thounsand of years of fighting away demons, first to protect earth and later to protect themselves I could see some of them wanting peace while others keep wanting war, just like everyother person, they are not a monolith in which everybody agrees with everything.

They’re not a monolith but they’re also not a democracy. They have rulers and I was talking exactly about them.

[Grinning Soul]

Well there are those who feel she does in a different direction. the project creators, esp my boss have all stated that Jean Grey's depth has relied way too much on the Phoenix and nothing much of her own merit. my boss has often said if we were to remove every plot involving the Phoenix from Jean, there wouldnt be much to her character. she rather develop Jean as a character more on her own merit and not have the Phoenix define her so much.

Respectfully, your boss is wrong. Her view is part of an echo chamber that keeps perpetrating itself due to ignorance.

Of course the Phoenix is a big part of Jean’s character as any big event is a big part of someone’s life. But it’s not the biggest part at all.

Just to give you one of many examples: since the characters are not allowed to grow old and considering that counting both deaths Jean has been dead for about 4-5 in-story years, Jean has been a hero for 9 years tops. Well, she was a mother for Nathan for 12 years and when she came back to her present life, she wanted to be a mother again.

There: a bigger part of her life that has nothing to do with the Phoenix.

I could keep going.

The only thing "rewritten" with Jean's new development is simply plots that explore the more infrequently observed plot of the all around good hero, having hidden vices that are not apparent due to one's overall good nature.

Jean was never a “all-around” good hero. She tries to be a good person, but she’s not perfect. That’s just a reductive image of her and most heroic types.

my boss actually wants Jean to serve as an opposite to the actual focus character, the idea is to explore how a tormented soul (the spotlight X-Man) or someone who's life has been fraught with pain and chaos leading them to making very poor life choices, isnt evil in nature and has the willpower to overcome their past and be the hero they truly are. she says Jean being the opposite reflection would represent the all around good natured, insightful, and powerful hero, she's the one everyone loves and embraces (where the spotlight X-Man is definitely not) but has to realize mistakes and errors in judgement are possible as "no one is perfect". and the errors of her making would be morally based, which offers something unique and very different.

There’s so much to unpack here… I’m not sure what is based on a wrong premise.

Jean is compassionate and that means she’s mostly not judgemental. Now, exactly because she is not perfect she might act in a judgemental way without realising.

But Jean is also capable of self-reflection. She has realised she was wrong or unfair before. Because again: she tries to be a good person, but she’s not perfect.

That wouldn’t be a revelation for the character. That’s what the character already is.

i think this would be a great development for Jean personally. it explores someone so good natured that their inner vices arent apparent, and these unusual type of idiosyncrasies would cause error in judgement and wrong choices rooted in almost a sanctimonious sense. that's a great narrative for the "all good hero" against one that is an "antihero".

It would be… except Jean is that character you’re describing already. You’re assuming she needs this development because you’re coming from a place of misconceptions about her.

Now if your minds are made up about that, there’s nothing I can say that will dissuade you of your views, I’m afraid. And I’m not sure how of our fan feedback can be useful.

GOOD antiheroes are NOT easy to write as i myself have seen them done wrong multiple times.

No good character is easy to write. But antiheroes are easiER than heroes.

the all good hero is far easier to write imo

The "all good heroes" are easy to write but they’re not interesting.

Interesting heroes are never all-good to begin with. You see? There's a difference between being born good and perfect and choosing to be good even though you're not perfect.

The difficulty in writing a good hero is to balance their determination of being good with their flaws. And that is very difficult.

antiheroes are only boring due to the writer not understanding what MAKES an antihero in the first place. its why Birds of Prey was a failure, but Joker was perfection.

Antiheroes can be boring for the same reason heroes can be boring: writers don’t give them a full personality and conflict. Antiheroes can mask their problems better because they can count on the cool vibe, because they can be edgy.

i do agree that regular heroes can be just as layered as antiheroes. her reimagining of Steve Rogers/Captain America would be an example for her writing. Steve is is portrayed as a pure in nature, but his background and overall narrative is so traumatic, that it clouts his judgement and decisions from pure confusion and even questioning if "true justice" is real. where she takes his character from her writing seems very rich and tight development wise, yet he's an example of not having to be an "antihero" to be interesting.

That sounds interesting in theory. With a good execution it could be a really good story.

yes i totally get what you mean and my boss understands this principle. but for what she wants to explore with the "focus X-Man" the story simply works better with a "dark character" from a "dark backstory".

the story isn't overall dark and brooding, but many foundational elements are. I LOVE her version of Peter Parker and what inspires him to become Spiderman, and Robbie Reyes as Ghost Rider. even Miles Morales is in this universe too, and his evolution is pretty cool and different a bit from canon. what inspires them dives in dark territory, but they are all amongst the more lighthearted characters. Clint Barton and Sam Wilson serve as class clowns a bit and partners in crime which is cute, but they have very heavy back stories.

It’s really up to the writer to decide about the tone of the story and up to the reader to like it or not. Different people enjoy different things. That’s normal.

as you said Jean would have to be a vastly different character, which is why this massive arc for the spotlight X-Man would NOT work for Jean. the character chosen is unexpected but very refreshing. she's reimagined the canon areas of their backstory in such an intriguing and exciting way, and married with the high concept plot devices and new development, takes the MU as a whole in a refreshing, innovative direction that I've not seen period.

Jean does not at all change at the core, and no need to be worried over a "vision" of where her character is concerned. the only changes there are or "vision" if you will, is simply Jean's narrative focusing more on her leadership abilities (one spoiler I will offer, Xavier dies way earlier on, and Jean pursues his dream of her opening her own school, a nod to canon), a decision maker for the team, being a mentor and voice for mutant wellfare. Power wise, her powers are made to be more tactful than just "OP for the sake of" and even exploration of her encountering things she can't overcome with psychic power alone (which is where characters possessing "high concept" powers come in), the writer would explore her thought process in overcoming or getting around said obstacles.

That’s all fine for me. I’m a huge fan of Jean’s but I love other characters too. I don’t want or need her to be at the centre of every story all the time.

also NO love triangles are involved here. only one time does it kinda happen and its when the team sorta falls apart. but even then it revoles around differences and clashing of opinions, NOT bc love triangles and crap like that. again more grounded circumstances.

Even on more grounded circumstances, I’d love to see no evidence of love triangles whatsoever when it comes to Jean. And I think most Jean fans would agree with me.

The X-Man in question that serves as the spotlight, is the one my boss reimagines a LOT. their narrative goes into extreme territories, and a lot of these "high concept" plots, plot devices omniverse level chaos and lots of exploration of existentialism. the X-Man of her choice is said to possess a superpower that would actually be the most powerful in potential (based in mysticism) yet has been very underrated and severely untapped in all of canon. that's where the "high concept" stuff comes into play, the redefining of "beyond omega" mutants, and many other different ideas altogether.

Speaking about Jean tho we'll get a character more grounded, more "relatable", and her character explored based on her own merit and not only being defined by her in possession of an OP force. we'd get her as an actual character in her own right. is it perfect? probably not, but thats why i'm here to iron out those kinks :)

Again: Jean only comes across as not relatable to people who believes she’s perfect. She’s not.

the VAST majority of the think tank AND the Marvel's own private fanclub, embrace these ideas but i'm for one that want as many opinons as possible

That’s a good first step. :)

[WallStreeter]

Don’t worry. It happens. I just couldn’t reply to that part because I wasn’t sure what you meant.



Yeah… so they got stuck in a self-devouring cycle of repeating the same stories when it comes to the Phoenix and DOFP and other smaller ones. I agree.

But since M-Day, we’ve been stuck in the “endagered species” and/or “humans want to kill us all” cycle. On that, Hickman’s “reboot of the franchise” as you called did little to change. He put mutants in a more advantageous position (that’s different), but the core is still the same conflict.

Since M-Day, the X-Men aren’t about the X-Men anymore but the fate of all mutants. Not even when they get a win (mutants appearing again at the end of AvX), they get to keep it. And they don’t get to keep it because the conflict needs to be there and be somewhat manageable.

Hickman’s run has been suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper extended with all those filler stories between HoX/PoX and Inferno because this conflict is not sustainable in the long run.

And until Marvel drops this angle that X-Men comics have to be about mutantdom as a whole, we’ll be stuck in this different cycle of self-devouring.

Feige has referred to the MCU X-Men as the Mutants. It would appear that May very well be the direction the MCU takes with the X-Men, to get away from Fox’s massive failures with Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix, and New Mutants.

Really even since the Morrison run for the most part mutant villains ceased to exist.

Really, all those DOFP and extinction stories meant in universe why wound mutant heroes and mutant villains fight each other if they’re all going to die? Why not join forces? Ultimately, it’s what they had to do.

[Grinning Soul]

Feige has referred to the MCU X-Men as the Mutants. It would appear that May very well be the direction the MCU takes with the X-Men, to get away from Fox’s massive failures with Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix, and New Mutants.

Really even since the Morrison run for the most part mutant villains ceased to exist.

Really, all those DOFP and extinction stories meant in universe why wound mutant heroes and mutant villains fight each other if they’re all going to die? Why not join forces? Ultimately, it’s what they had to do.

But it's not like there are only those two options, right? Cannibalise CC's stories or Cannibalise stories of "endangered species", mutant x human conflict.

My point is, while the X-Men is stuck with the fate of mutantdom as a whole, we're just stuck in another cycle of rehearsing the same stories with a different dressing.

[WallStreeter]

But it's not like there are only those two options, right? Cannibalise CC's stories or Cannibalise stories of "endangered species", mutant x human conflict.

My point is, while the X-Men is stuck with the fate of mutantdom as a whole, we're just stuck in another cycle of rehearsing the same stories with a different dressing.

All those DOFP stories, even twice in the Fox movies have made the X-Men idiots for opposing people like Magneto and Apocalypse. Frankly leave between major mutant factions I think was their only choice. So they decided to focus more on the society of mutants.

I think the other thing with the Avengers being the clear winners as a superhero team, the X-Men seemed second rate as best and could not compete.

The public spoke when they rejected the Fox movies (huge failure) and when Xbook sakes went way down. So Hickman was hired to reboot for MCU.

[Grinning Soul]

All those DOFP stories, even twice in the Fox movies have made the X-Men idiots for opposing people like Magneto and Apocalypse. Frankly leave between major mutant factions I think was their only choice. So they decided to focus more on the society of mutants.

I think the other thing with the Avengers being the clear winners as a superhero team, the X-Men seemed second rate as best and could not compete.

The public spoke when they rejected the Fox movies (huge failure) and when Xbook sakes went way down. So Hickman was hired to reboot for MCU.

Fox movies are horrible for a number of reasons, not just the type of stories they chose to repeat over and over.

Hickman didn't reboot anything. He's writing the same mutant x human conflict that we've been reading since M-Day. It's just happening on a bigger scale. You might prefer that approach but it's not new.

[WallStreeter]

Fox movies are horrible for a number of reasons, not just the type of stories they chose to repeat over and over.

Hickman didn't reboot anything. He's writing the same mutant x human conflict that we've been reading since M-Day. It's just happening on a bigger scale. You might prefer that approach but it's not new.

It will ultimately be up to the general public to judge Hickman’s run, via sales and since the first mutant movie is rumored to focus on Xavier and Moira as setting everything up, via movie ticket sales.

[WallStreeter]

I think a lot of haters of Hickman’s run do know he has rebooted the franchise snd done new stuff. Some fans are stuck in the 90s. It’s like fans of the original Charmed upset that there’s a new Charmed with new actresses.

[Askani's Flame]

Not really because what prompted AvX to begin with was it acting on its own accord destroying planets its way to Earth and freaking out the Avengers...later on it starts tormenting teen Jean, eventually "killing" her, and also tries to manipulate adult Jean with her dead family and dead Scott Summers before being told to kick rocks

Not counting whatever other stuff it was doing in Thor, Thanos with Thane, and that 1,000,000 B.C. Avengers stuff because I tend to stay away from those non X-related bastardizations.

*Side-rant* While I don't mind Rachel's time as Phoenix, I really hate that Alan Davis saw fit to muck around and strip Jean of having being the one to give the Phoenix its firebird image(hinted at in Claremont's Classic X-Men backup stories), or even being the first mind to touch it and give it sentience...and for what? A nothing character like Feron and his even more nothing descendant? It also takes away from it being a (uniquely) Grey/bloodline thing, or even a mutant psychic thing...just some mystic and his evil teacher (Necrom) who ends up stealing a piece of the Phoenix and creating an anti-Phoenix(why? What is that exactly? The Phoenix already has an inherent dual nature). Ugh...and it all went downhill from there

Not sure why you quoted me here as I didn't bring up AvX but what prompted AvX was the birth of Hope and the reconstitution of the Phoenix shards and coming back to Earth. The editorial hack-job of the Phoenix then began because the Avengers needed something to rally against and create fake friction, so they decided to abandon the 20 years of history and make make the PF go on a rampage.

I get your rant on Feron. He wasn't a true host or avatar in the ways that Jean or Rachel were, just someone who made contact and connected to the Force in a new way. But already it had gone from pure manifestation of Jean's potential (Phoenix Saga) to bloodline power (Rachel) to cosmic entity squatter (revealed when Jean was awoken in FF). In the grand scheme of things the inclusion of Feron and Merlyn didn't add anything truly detrimental but did add a couple twists. It's not the best example of what they could have done but hindsight is 20/20. I actually think both Giraud and Malibu Comics getting the Phoenix was one of the worst things as that truly began the ever shifting narrative of non-mutants getting the PF. Then AvX started the transition from the X-Men to the Avengers line with the final X Farewell being the Resurrection event for Jean.

[Grinning Soul]

I think a lot of haters of Hickman’s run do know he has rebooted the franchise snd done new stuff. Some fans are stuck in the 90s. It’s like fans of the original Charmed upset that there’s a new Charmed with new actresses.

It's not about personal taste, which is subjective.

You were talking about the rehearsing of CC's stories and I agree, it's done a lot. Then I added that the thematic of the "endangered" species and/or the conflict between mutants and humans have been at the centre of the X-Men stories since M-Day. Hickman's run - regardless of how one feels about it - has the conflict between mutants and humans at it's very core. And that is fact. That is objective.

My *opinion* is that we've had too many stories of the kind already and I'd like for us to move on from that. But I don't see it happening until Marvel set the X-men free from thematic that deals with the fate of the entire mutantdom.

I did not mention the 90s or any period of the comics. I'm saying I'd like the X-Men to be free so the writers can tell new stories, approach new themes. It has nothing to do with being stuck in the past. It's the contrary of that.

[Phoenixx9]

Not sure why you quoted me here as I didn't bring up AvX but what prompted AvX was the birth of Hope and the reconstitution of the Phoenix shards and coming back to Earth. The editorial hack-job of the Phoenix then began because the Avengers needed something to rally against and create fake friction, so they decided to abandon the 20 years of history and make make the PF go on a rampage.

I get your rant on Feron. He wasn't a true host or avatar in the ways that Jean or Rachel were, just someone who made contact and connected to the Force in a new way. But already it had gone from pure manifestation of Jean's potential (Phoenix Saga) to bloodline power (Rachel) to cosmic entity squatter (revealed when Jean was awoken in FF). In the grand scheme of things the inclusion of Feron and Merlyn didn't add anything truly detrimental but did add a couple twists. It's not the best example of what they could have done but hindsight is 20/20. I actually think both Giraud and Malibu Comics getting the Phoenix was one of the worst things as that truly began the ever shifting narrative of non-mutants getting the PF. Then AvX started the transition from the X-Men to the Avengers line with the final X Farewell being the Resurrection event for Jean.

Really? Wow...... Well I don't.

And as a matter of fact, Giraud was stated to be a mutant or a latent mutant.

"Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."