Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Vishop]

Hickman just doesn't know ho to write Jean and when he does his take just comes out as very antiquated and regressive, other than that I don't think It is fair nor proper to express generalized opinions about him as a person.

I am not. But it's just that those books that I have read from him have been pretty evident about how he uses female characters, which wasn't good.

[Rang10]

Way back in 2011, back when Marvel.com used to do those annual rankings of best heroes of the year and couples, they did an article on power couples which included Scemma. And it was just a bunch of Marvel writers basically propping up Scemma by trashing Jott. A lot of nonsense about how their relationship plateaued when they fight on the Blue Area of the Moon in UXM 137 and how Scott was only a boy back then and being with Jean held him back, which is why he needs Emma. Hickman was one of those writers who was a big Scemma fan, which I specifically remember because I was a fan of him back then with Fantastic Four, so I wasn't pleased to see him dissing Jean. There was a lot of hate towards Jean back then from editorial and a lot of the writers also made clear that they felt Jean should never have come back after her first death and it was good she was gone because Scott could grow as a character without her. and trash articles like this kept hashing up this nonsense.

I don't think those links are still available now but I do remember that the old Jean threads from back then did discuss this since her fans were outraged at the blatant disrespect (as used to it as we were).


This is what we Jean fans used to point out whenever hack writers like Hickman would make comments about how Jean was only the love of Scott's life from his youth, Emma was the one who made him the man he is today (if he means the terrorist Wrongclops, he'd be right about that though). Jean and Scott weren't just ypung lovers who lost each other in their teens or early 20s and that was the end of it. They got married as adults, raised a child together for 12 years in the future, etc. and have a much longer history together than just the Dark Phoenix Saga. But so much of Marvel creatives seemed to believe that Jean should have stayed dead after her first death and they loved to bring that up all the time as to why she shouldn't come back from her second death, so it seems like they really did just ignore any of her history from X-Factor onward.

Yes, it was Teen Jean he was going to use, hence also why Remender picturized the Marvel Girl version of Jean. But I still consider that Jean, especially since that was before the adult Jean had come back. Remender did an amazing job with AoA Jean who was different from ours, yet still felt like the core of the character, so I'm sure he could have handled Teen Jean as well and still made her feel like ours.

Well I couldnt find the article as the marvel site doesn't list anything before 2017 about valentines day, maybe even some writers asked to erase because it would destroy they progressive clout.
But i'm not suprised that writers were showing misoginy in 2011 to defend a couple they like. At the time it was normal sexism on comics, it was another Wednesday. Just recently things got more progressive, that even Jean was allowed to do things on her own and be alive again.

It's a massive rewriting of Scott and Jean romantic story. They were a matured couple, they weren't even teenagers when they started dating.
Then writers went and blamed Cyclops being boring on Jean, that she hold him back with the conclusion that she was better off dead because fo that. It's so wrong, put all the problems of a man on the shoulders of a female character.

Funny that the first opportunity he put Jean and Scott back together, so I just expecting the awful twist on this


Well I'm sure that Remender like Bendis would make Teen Jean work well.

I am not. But it's just that those books that I have read from him have been pretty evident about how he uses female characters, which wasn't good.

I'm with you here

[whitecrown]

Well I couldnt find the article as the marvel site doesn't list anything before 2017 about valentines day, maybe even some writers asked to erase because it would destroy they progressive clout.
But i'm not suprised that writers were showing misoginy in 2011 to defend a couple they like. At the time it was normal sexism on comics, it was another Wednesday. Just recently things got more progressive, that even Jean was allowed to do things on her own and be alive again.

It's a massive rewriting of Scott and Jean romantic story. They were a matured couple, they weren't even teenagers when they started dating.
Then writers went and blamed Cyclops being boring on Jean, that she hold him back with the conclusion that she was better off dead because fo that. It's so wrong, put all the problems of a man on the shoulders of a female character.

Funny that the first opportunity he put Jean and Scott back together, so I just expecting the awful twist on this


Well I'm sure that Remender like Bendis would make Teen Jean work well.



I'm with you here

Marvel.com had a major revamp over the years so a lot of that material is gone, although I don't completely mind because the 2000s were all about Scemma content especially when it came to top couples. And even when there was Jott material, they kept finding ways to shade Jean. The editorial bias against Jean was so apparent back then and they didn't even bother to hide it.

Things are getting better or they're supposedly getting better on paper but Hickman is very much a writer from that era with the same views, which is why we've basically regressed back to the Fraction era, just with Xavier and Moira now included. Even Krakoa is just an updated version of Utopia.

Remender is a huge Jean fan, which I don't think is something he's even outright said, but it's so obvious just going by how much he included her in UXF. Besides her major role as AoA Jean, he really established the links she has with Logan and Betsy (and it was so refreshing to not see Jean and Betsy pitted against each other as rivals), to the point that Betsy and Warren name one of their daughters after her. If this wasn't AoA Jean but 616 Jean, I'm sure we'd have seen more of Jean and Warren's friendship there as well. With Hickman, I'm shocked he put Jott back together, since he's never hidden that he prefers Scemma but maybe this has been editorially mandated since it doesn't seem that STD of a couple is allowed to come back together in Marvel now.

[Zelena]

Yeah, I am not buying he is misogynistic either. Under Hickman, Percy was also there who was using Jean decently. But over the years Hickman doesn't have the capability to write female characters all too well even if those books are indies(but an exception might be Xiaolian Mao from East of West). Either that or its Cyclops being a more developed figurehead character over the past few years.

Maybe some people are able to divine what is hidden in an author’s heart through his work. I don’t.

What I know it’s that I like Claremont and I don’t like Hickman. I’m not saying Hickman is misogynistic but I don’t exclude it neither…

[Vishop]

Maybe some people are able to divine what is hidden in an author’s heart through his work. I don’t.

What I know it’s that I like Claremont and I don’t like Hickman. I’m not saying Hickman is misogynistic but I don’t exclude it neither…

Honestly if a writer implies himself to be male chauvinist then I am sure it will be clear as sky as evident in comics bc its comics

[Rang10]

Honestly if a writer implies himself to be male chauvinist then I am sure it will be clear as sky as evident in comics bc its comics

Fiction often reflects what the writer believes, Whedon left many clues on his work on comics, TV and movies. He even championed a couple born from infidelity on comics.

[Rang10]

Marvel.com had a major revamp over the years so a lot of that material is gone, although I don't completely mind because the 2000s were all about Scemma content especially when it came to top couples. And even when there was Jott material, they kept finding ways to shade Jean. The editorial bias against Jean was so apparent back then and they didn't even bother to hide it.

Things are getting better or they're supposedly getting better on paper but Hickman is very much a writer from that era with the same views, which is why we've basically regressed back to the Fraction era, just with Xavier and Moira now included. Even Krakoa is just an updated version of Utopia.

Remender is a huge Jean fan, which I don't think is something he's even outright said, but it's so obvious just going by how much he included her in UXF. Besides her major role as AoA Jean, he really established the links she has with Logan and Betsy (and it was so refreshing to not see Jean and Betsy pitted against each other as rivals), to the point that Betsy and Warren name one of their daughters after her. If this wasn't AoA Jean but 616 Jean, I'm sure we'd have seen more of Jean and Warren's friendship there as well. With Hickman, I'm shocked he put Jott back together, since he's never hidden that he prefers Scemma but maybe this has been editorially mandated since it doesn't seem that STD of a couple is allowed to come back together in Marvel now.

I think my problem with Scemma and the strong Scott push is that it came from a sexist place and at te cost of Jean Grey. No wonder along the years writers/editors were still taking shots on Jean.

I rarely trust writers, specially that Hickman was on the Hate Jean Boat with others writers. He didn't became a shipper, he just writing what fits the story. A big happy family to champion krakoa, but it wont last


I had no idea h was a big Jean fan. Really wish he had a chance to write the adult one. bendis only had the chance to write the teen version, I think this wasnt good for the adult Jean. Writers just ignored his job easily, it would be harder to ifgnore if it was adult Jean

I think the writers that never entered that Boat were Aaron, Remender, Bendis.

[Havok83]

I had no idea h was a big Jean fan. Really wish he had a chance to write the adult one. bendis only had the chance to write the teen version, I think this wasnt good for the adult Jean. Writers just ignored his job easily, it would be harder to ifgnore if it was adult Jean.

like they ignored Taylor's Red Jean? A writer is gonna use what he or she wants

[Celestialbodies]

I think Hickman is horrible at writing characters. He has built a great world, but he seems to care more about the mythology than the plot and he doesn’t seem interested in the characters. They are just there to tell us what is going on, and I actually don’t care for any of them. I haven’t seen any character growth during his run. The set-up was good, placing all the characters on the board, tweaking them, giving some of them new back stories. But since then, nothing has really happened characterwise.

I used to be a fan of Hickman especially his FF. However, his Avengers run made it very clear that he was focused more on plotline than characters and other users here have pointed out the misogyny of how he treated Carol Danvers there. Hickman reminds me of Morrison in that he has his own concepts which don't really fit the X-Men and he has no compunction about molding and misshaping the X-Men to fit the storyline he wants to write. I can very easily see most of what he's introduced being retconned, just like with Morrison's run, after he finally leaves and hopefully soon.

You say he pushes for characters into new and exciting roles but that's really only true for his handful of favorites. There are more mutants in his run than in any other X-Men run but about 90% of them are just wallpaper and only a handful of his pet characters are the ones getting the main spotlight. Long-time mainstays like Jean and Storm have been reduced to just standing around. From what I remember, Hickman was never a fan of Jean since he used to say she held Scott back and wasn't his true love so going by that, I should really never have had faith that he cared about the character since I believe he also implied (or maybe flat out said) way back in the early 2010s that he thinks Jean should have stayed dead. Maybe that's also why he's relegated her back to Marvel Girl, since he's only interested in using her in her incarnation prior to her Dark Phoenix Saga death.

You both make great points which I won't argue as much of a fan as I am of Hickman, Ewing and Wells do a MUCH better job than him with character interactions and characterizations. In many ways I wish they had as much influence as him because his vision with their writing could improve a lot of areas in which readers complain about lacking. He can write interesting dialogue which I enjoy but it can come across as very cold, unfamiliar ESPECIALLY with a franchise like the X-men which are enriched by familial interactions. I did feel his style went better with the Avengers and FF oddly enough!

I've always felt like Jean could have been the central figure of this era instead of Moira. If we're telling a story about a woman who has lived many different lives then why not go with the OG X-man with a penchant for resurrection and who also used to be a godly being.

Honestly, there are 100 things Hickman could have done with Jean in this era given her recent history and somehow he's ignore literally all of it. Heck, I genuinely thought during HOP/POX when it was mentioned a mutant was on the Shiar throne that maybe just maybe Hickman was going to turn the Shiar and Grey conflict on it's head and maybe have a Grey/Summer occupy the throne, so of course he instead heavy handily forces Sam and Roberto into that narrative.

You have a link with Hickman saying any of these things about Jean?

That would make a ton of sense given how he writes her, but I don't think I've seen quotes of him saying this stuff. Not surprising at all if we go off the way he presents the character.

I don't have the interview but I can confirm whitecrown statements, I've been on this sub for a long time, and around the Fraction era there were monthly or near bi-monthly interviews in the early 10's if not a little before with the Marvel writers. In those interviews virtually EVERY writer who were asked about Jean and Scemma basically said in no uncertain terms, Jean deserved to die. Moreover how much better of a partner Emma was to Scott in every way, Jean was the girl he loved, Emma was the woman he needed, that last line was actually in a comic under Gillen.

Finally, my favorite thing about that period was this, Matt Fraction the then writer of Uncanny X-men said, "if Scott has steak (Emma) why would he need lobster (Jean) from 2004-2012 it was not a fun time to be a Jean fan. Her return was alluded to in nearly EVERY major event only for them to say "psych" and then say Jean basically doesn't have a place in the X-men anymore.

Way back in 2011, back when Marvel.com used to do those annual rankings of best heroes of the year and couples, they did an article on power couples which included Scemma. And it was just a bunch of Marvel writers basically propping up Scemma by trashing Jott. A lot of nonsense about how their relationship plateaued when they fight on the Blue Area of the Moon in UXM 137 and how Scott was only a boy back then and being with Jean held him back, which is why he needs Emma. Hickman was one of those writers who was a big Scemma fan, which I specifically remember because I was a fan of him back then with Fantastic Four, so I wasn't pleased to see him dissing Jean. There was a lot of hate towards Jean back then from editorial and a lot of the writers also made clear that they felt Jean should never have come back after her first death and it was good she was gone because Scott could grow as a character without her. and trash articles like this kept hashing up this nonsense.

I don't think those links are still available now but I do remember that the old Jean threads from back then did discuss this since her fans were outraged at the blatant disrespect (as used to it as we were).


This is what we Jean fans used to point out whenever hack writers like Hickman would make comments about how Jean was only the love of Scott's life from his youth, Emma was the one who made him the man he is today (if he means the terrorist Wrongclops, he'd be right about that though). Jean and Scott weren't just ypung lovers who lost each other in their teens or early 20s and that was the end of it. They got married as adults, raised a child together for 12 years in the future, etc. and have a much longer history together than just the Dark Phoenix Saga. But so much of Marvel creatives seemed to believe that Jean should have stayed dead after her first death and they loved to bring that up all the time as to why she shouldn't come back from her second death, so it seems like they really did just ignore any of her history from X-Factor onward.

Yes, it was Teen Jean he was going to use, hence also why Remender picturized the Marvel Girl version of Jean. But I still consider that Jean, especially since that was before the adult Jean had come back. Remender did an amazing job with AoA Jean who was different from ours, yet still felt like the core of the character, so I'm sure he could have handled Teen Jean as well and still made her feel like ours.

That did happen!

Well, he seems to be a Jott shipper now, sadly.

I'm still unconvinced, nothing from them has given me he's a shipper though this could be exactly how he envisions their relationship which is sort of sad for no other reasons than he would have written Scemma SO MUCH better than what he's doing with Jott.

Where did he say this?

See above, statement.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't care too much for Hickman's Jean, but I don't think he's misogynistic. Just because a writer doesn't write the character the way you want doesn't mean there is some ulterior motive behind it. He doesn't gel with Jean thus far IMO, but I don't think it goes deeper than that.

Finally, some common sense.

Funnily enough, while Tom Taylor is beloved by a lot of Jean fans, some Wonder Woman fans started a thread asking if he was misogynistic due to his writing of her in the Injustice comics. It all depends on who your favorite is in the end.

[Rang10]

Funnily enough, while Tom Taylor is beloved by a lot of Jean fans, some Wonder Woman fans started a thread asking if he was misogynistic due to his writing of her in the Injustice comics. It all depends on who your favorite is in the end.

Depends on the matarial source of the universe. Injustice is a sexist story, Wonder Woman took the biggest hit, even worse than Superman. Hard to make it work, her story mkes zero sense.
Hickman is very consistent on his female portrayals

like they ignored Taylor's Red Jean? A writer is gonna use what he or she wants

Sure a writer could ignore it, but it owuld be a lot harder to do. like JDW ignoring the pink form, he couldn't sy it was when she was a teenager so she "forgot" about it.
All new x-men was the best part about bendis run but also really easy to ignore

[andreikes]

X men Red was a great opportunity to develop the pink form ... But ... Forgotten

[Havok83]

X men Red was a great opportunity to develop the pink form ... But ... Forgotten

No it didnt. The teen X-men had not gone back in time yet, so Jean did not have the memories of it unlocked. Quite frankly, she didnt need it.

[Phoenixx9]

No it didnt. The teen X-men had not gone back in time yet, so Jean did not have the memories of it unlocked. Quite frankly, she didnt need it.

Queen Jean throwing down!! My kind of gal!

[andreikes]

But I like the pink form :/