Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Omega_DCD]

Not sure why you quoted me here as I didn't bring up AvX but what prompted AvX was the birth of Hope and the reconstitution of the Phoenix shards and coming back to Earth. The editorial hack-job of the Phoenix then began because the Avengers needed something to rally against and create fake friction, so they decided to abandon the 20 years of history and make make the PF go on a rampage.

I get your rant on Feron. He wasn't a true host or avatar in the ways that Jean or Rachel were, just someone who made contact and connected to the Force in a new way. But already it had gone from pure manifestation of Jean's potential (Phoenix Saga) to bloodline power (Rachel) to cosmic entity squatter (revealed when Jean was awoken in FF). In the grand scheme of things the inclusion of Feron and Merlyn didn't add anything truly detrimental but did add a couple twists. It's not the best example of what they could have done but hindsight is 20/20. I actually think both Giraud and Malibu Comics getting the Phoenix was one of the worst things as that truly began the ever shifting narrative of non-mutants getting the PF. Then AvX started the transition from the X-Men to the Avengers line with the final X Farewell being the Resurrection event for Jean.

Agreed...oh and I quoted you just to say that the Force having sentience didn't end (permanently) in Excalibur #64

[GMikey]

Respectfully, your boss is wrong. Her view is part of an echo chamber that keeps perpetrating itself due to ignorance.

Of course the Phoenix is a big part of Jean’s character as any big event is a big part of someone’s life. But it’s not the biggest part at all.

Just to give you one of many examples: since the characters are not allowed to grow old and considering that counting both deaths Jean has been dead for about 4-5 in-story years, Jean has been a hero for 9 years tops. Well, she was a mother for Nathan for 12 years and when she came back to her present life, she wanted to be a mother again.

There: a bigger part of her life that has nothing to do with the Phoenix.

I could keep going.

and that's good! the chief writer however wants to go more in the direction of leadership with her character but that's great. unfortunately from what I see as well as many others, Phoenix dominates Jean grey and chief wants to not make that such a focus. Phoenix still plays a major role for as it has a massive narrative dealing with "new monsters" that terrify even the most powerful of cosmic entities (which is quite the discussion in itself)

Jean was never a “all-around” good hero. She tries to be a good person, but she’s not perfect. That’s just a reductive image of her and most heroic types.

There’s so much to unpack here… I’m not sure what is based on a wrong premise.

Jean is compassionate and that means she’s mostly not judgemental. Now, exactly because she is not perfect she might act in a judgemental way without realising.

But Jean is also capable of self-reflection. She has realised she was wrong or unfair before. Because again: she tries to be a good person, but she’s not perfect.

That wouldn’t be a revelation for the character. That’s what the character already is.

*sigh* okay let's back track and reword some of this...

first off let me address the possible misuse of the term "judgemental". the main writer uses this term but not at al to mean Jean is judgemental by definition. Jean is extremely compassionate and uses her powers to penetrate the issues of others so to better understand them in the first place. we get to see this with the revised Morlocks, and an OC who is disabled. however, the plot then introduces something where she was not in control this time, and she unwittingly stirs a judgement bc she's not the one in control. She (the writer) says this is a vice she's seen in many "compassionate" ppl in her personal experience and is a vice she's rarely seen adressed in story form.

Bc in this narrative, Jean is the girl everyone loves, everyone trusts, she's Xavier's favorite student, and she's the only one to come from a solid home. and despite her compassion, there's a grey area to be explored in which such person is unable to identify with ppl of a certain character demographic, esp those who reject help for reasons seemingly unknown.

This subplot will be very instrumental for Dark Phoenix and what becomes of "The Phoenix Trilogy".

Keep this in mind the series starts off with them as kids (then a timeskip happens) so it would be very easy for Kid Jean to make these mistakes and learn self reflection in progress.

It would be… except Jean is that character you’re describing already. You’re assuming she needs this development because you’re coming from a place of misconceptions about her.

Now if your minds are made up about that, there’s nothing I can say that will dissuade you of your views, I’m afraid. And I’m not sure how of our fan feedback can be useful.

but that's WHY i am here. if you have suggestions for better insight for her character, then tell me what aspects could be useful to focus on. I could even dm you a few deeper plot points to help you see the overall narative and what should be done for Jean's character.

No good character is easy to write. But antiheroes are easiER than heroes.

The "all good heroes" are easy to write but they’re not interesting.

Thats where we disagree on the antihero bit. I've seen it done poorly on more counts than well, and seen a vast amt more of "normal" heroes done well.

Interesting heroes are never all-good to begin with. You see? There's a difference between being born good and perfect and choosing to be good even though you're not perfect.

The difficulty in writing a good hero is to balance their determination of being good with their flaws. And that is very difficult.

Yes I know the difference, but the latter wouldnt be an antihero still. MCU Steve Rogers and Tony Stark examples of characters that are well balanced, yet both are very different as Steve is the more "perfect" hero, with Tony being the more flawed one, yet Tony does not classify as an antihero. Characters like these aren't that hard to write, but a character to me like Joker (Phoenix) takes way more insight to manifest correctly. Otherwise you'll get a Cruella or Harley Quinn (Birds of Prey).

Antiheroes can be boring for the same reason heroes can be boring: writers don’t give them a full personality and conflict. Antiheroes can mask their problems better because they can count on the cool vibe, because they can be edgy.

THAT is the REASON antiheroes to me are harder to write. bc writers tend to rely on them being edgelords than rly understanding the true conflict of what makes an "anti"hero to begin with. the "good" hero doesnt have this problem. however... I just feel this topic is one we'll disagree on.

That sounds interesting in theory. With a good execution it could be a really good story.
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It’s really up to the writer to decide about the tone of the story and up to the reader to like it or not. Different people enjoy different things. That’s normal.

well its not meant just for a specific demographic, but to carry out new ideas and concepts, thats the primary reason the "dark tone" is chosen. I do feel its a good balance of light and dark moments and elements. also keep in mind there's a lot of fan participation so this is another reason its been more "dark" leaning.

That’s all fine for me. I’m a huge fan of Jean’s but I love other characters too. I don’t want or need her to be at the centre of every story all the time.

Even on more grounded circumstances, I’d love to see no evidence of love triangles whatsoever when it comes to Jean. And I think most Jean fans would agree with me.

Again: Jean only comes across as not relatable to people who believes she’s perfect. She’s not.

That’s a first good step.

And Jean ins't being treated as a side character at all her role is VERY germaine to the primary narrative and crucial to very important plot points. esp the introduced plots revolving around "beyond cosmic horror". Its just we get a different focus X-Man as the spotlight if you will but others also have their own mini arcs and highlights as well. theres even a mini arc involving Logan as variant of Dark Phoenix, and its pretty interesting.

MOST X-fans said no love triangles and so we're not pursuing that.

and I feel the whole point with this vers of Jean IS to help break the mold. not everyone has gotten to see this versitility with the character and something like this could help shake up the misconceptions ppl and evn I myself have. but thats why im here trying to start that discussion now

[Brian B]

I think a lot of haters of Hickman’s run do know he has rebooted the franchise snd done new stuff. Some fans are stuck in the 90s. It’s like fans of the original Charmed upset that there’s a new Charmed with new actresses.

I don’t hate what Hickman or Duggan, et al, are doing at all. I wish Hickman were writing more, and delegating less.

However, within the fictional Marvel Universe, I don’t see what mutants have done is at all heroic. It may have been until X-Force #10 and Giant-Size. Now, they’re a bunch of would-be, genocidal empire builders who need to be called on the carpet. Basically, Krakoa and Arakko have gone evil empire on us readers. Hickman’s flipped the hunted and feared script on its head. Now, it’s actually worse than what the fictional Bolivar Trask described. He only predicted enslavement and replacement of humans by mutants.



Trask didn’t predict they’d cause actual genocide or at least human slaughter, and worse, use it as just another tool and opportunity for the mutant nation state. The closest historical analogy I can come up with to compare to this fiction is Imperial Japan starting WWII with the invasion of Manchuria and Imperial Japan’s Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. In this formulation, Magneto and Xavier are Tojo and the Emperor. Note that the Krakoan government is about as legitimate as those gangsters were, too. No one elected Magneto, Moria, and Xavier, though they did acquiesce by choosing to move to Krakoa. I guess the Quiet Council is slightly more based on the actual will of the people since they came to Krakoa and choose not to leave, for the most part.

For those who would say I’m criticizing Hickman or the X-Men over this viewpoint, I always enjoyed Star Wars and the evil empire a great deal. Darth Vader is a very enjoyable character. Empire Strikes Back is arguably the best Star Wars movie. Just because someone in the Marvel Universe needs to deal the current Krakoan nation a death blow, IMO, doesn’t mean the story so far is bad. I’m enjoying it well enough. I just think Nimrod is now the hero. His speech to Mystique was exactly right.

[Grinning Soul]

and that's good! the chief writer however wants to go more in the direction of leadership with her character but that's great. unfortunately from what I see as well as many others, Phoenix dominates Jean grey and chief wants to not make that such a focus. Phoenix still plays a major role for as it has a massive narrative dealing with "new monsters" that terrify even the most powerful of cosmic entities (which is quite the discussion in itself)

Phoenix only dominates Jean Grey when the writers share the opinion that there’s nothing about Jean Grey other than the Phoenix and they don’t try to move her out of that shelf.

But that’s not true for most of the decades of stories with Jean. At all.

Jean went to university, started her enterprise to help mutants, adjusted the original plan, rescued them, taught mutant teenagers and children, improved mutant-human relationship, got married, raised a child under horrible conditions, helped heroes from other teams including with personal trauma (Jessica Jones), addressed diplomats and politicians, led teams, acted as the headmistress of the school, reached out to other heroes who didn’t hesitate to help her, tried to unite the world - NONE of that was related to the Phoenix.

Not bad for 30+ years old woman, right? (Counting the 12 years raising Nathan in the future).

The thing is the Phoenix was one of the few stories (until recently) where everything revolved around Jean and not many X-Men have that. So it creates this illusion that Jean is all about the Phoenix.

She’s not.

*sigh* okay let's back track and reword some of this...

first off let me address the possible misuse of the term "judgemental". the main writer uses this term but not at al to mean Jean is judgemental by definition. Jean is extremely compassionate and uses her powers to penetrate the issues of others so to better understand them in the first place. we get to see this with the revised Morlocks, and an OC who is disabled. however, the plot then introduces something where she was not in control this time, and she unwittingly stirs a judgement bc she's not the one in control. She (the writer) says this is a vice she's seen in many "compassionate" ppl in her personal experience and is a vice she's rarely seen adressed in story form.

Bc in this narrative, Jean is the girl everyone loves, everyone trusts, she's Xavier's favorite student, and she's the only one to come from a solid home. and despite her compassion, there's a grey area to be explored in which such person is unable to identify with ppl of a certain character demographic, esp those who reject help for reasons seemingly unknown.

This subplot will be very instrumental for Dark Phoenix and what becomes of "The Phoenix Trilogy".

Keep this in mind the series starts off with them as kids (then a timeskip happens) so it would be very easy for Kid Jean to make these mistakes and learn self reflection in progress.

Mistakes are good. I don’t blame characters for making them, especially if they are due to a moment’s reaction. Like I said, Jean is not perfect. She is capable of being judgemental at times. She’s also capable of self-reflection and admitting she’s wrong.

On that, I have no objections, even though I know her haters will keep bringing this up.

Seriously, it’s hilarious: the same people who accuse Jean of being perfect want to crucify her every time she makes a mistake or acts in a way that isn’t admirable! :D

but that's WHY i am here. if you have suggestions for better insight for her character, then tell me what aspects could be useful to focus on. I could even dm you a few deeper plot points to help you see the overall narative and what should be done for Jean's character.

Do you know what I think could make Jean more “relatable” without having to change or add anything about her personality?

Just let her talk to a friend.

Jean is very clever and intuitive when it comes to helping other people deal with their emotions, but her own emotions are very strong and often very entangled with other strong emotions. And she's too close to them to identify the problem (like I said, she has a complex personality with traits that are often paradoxical, but make sense to who she is). She really benefits from talking to more rational characters like Ororo or Scott (since Xavier won’t be available). And just by having the characters talking would show us that she is fragile like any of us.

It doesn’t need to be necessarily about self-doubts. It can just be about grieving, about feeling tired, about wondering if she’s doing enough, about questioning if her tendency to always put everyone before herself/self-sacrificing is the best way in which she can actually help other people… You know, just human stuff that she certainly feels.

Super confident characters often come across as non-relatable. And, especially if Jean will be a in a position of leadership, it will be *really* good to have some panels here and there showing her that it is a burden and it affects her and she has no trouble asking for help from her close friends, because that makes her a better leader.

Speaking of that, as a leader Jean should be very inclusive, very interested in other people's opinions. Ultimately, the decision should be hers, but being able to adjust and improve (or even completely discard) her original plans based on the feedback of her team should be one of her strengths.

Lastly: sure, feel free to write me a DM whenever you want. But I’m certain other fans can also give you some input here. :)

[Brian B]

...but that's WHY i am here. if you have suggestions for better insight for her character, then tell me what aspects could be useful to focus on. I could even dm you a few deeper plot points to help you see the overall narative and what should be done for Jean's character.

I would like to see Jean killed in some kind of battle, or tried in the Hague for her role as a war criminal in covering up the Crimes Against Humanity in Terra Verde. It’d be fine, too, if it was some rough, battlefield justice as Nick Fury or Captain America executes her in the ruins of Krakoa, as she is an irregular fighter and does not bind herself to the Geneva Convention in regard to regular troops.

And Jean ins't being treated as a side character at all her role is VERY germaine to the primary narrative and crucial to very important plot points...

She sure played a key role in her attempt to cover up the crimes in Terra Verde, really THE key role.

Note how Phoenix was not involved, Grinning Soul. The X titles are reaching beyond that with Jean, definitely. This is Jean Grey, not Phoenix.

GMikey, you’re talking about anti-heroes a lot, but the starring characters in the X titles have taken a real dark turn into straight-up villainy. Becoming a nation-state carries grave risks to your own people when your nation state starts slaughtering others and declaring itself rulers of this world and another.

[Grinning Soul]

Thats where we disagree on the antihero bit. I've seen it done poorly on more counts than well, and seen a vast amt more of "normal" heroes done well.

Yes I know the difference, but the latter wouldnt be an antihero still. MCU Steve Rogers and Tony Stark examples of characters that are well balanced, yet both are very different as Steve is the more "perfect" hero, with Tony being the more flawed one, yet Tony does not classify as an antihero. Characters like these aren't that hard to write, but a character to me like Joker (Phoenix) takes way more insight to manifest correctly. Otherwise you'll get a Cruella or Harley Quinn (Birds of Prey).

THAT is the REASON antiheroes to me are harder to write. bc writers tend to rely on them being edgelords than rly understanding the true conflict of what makes an "anti"hero to begin with. the "good" hero doesnt have this problem. however... I just feel this topic is one we'll disagree on.

Yeah. I suppose we just disagree and that’s totally fine. Different people find different things more difficult than others.

well its not meant just for a specific demographic, but to carry out new ideas and concepts, thats the primary reason the "dark tone" is chosen. I do feel its a good balance of light and dark moments and elements. also keep in mind there's a lot of fan participation so this is another reason its been more "dark" leaning.

Balance is always good, but honestly I don’t think a writer can afford to worry to much about what will be popular. It’s about getting the ego out of the way and writing what is best for the story. And that is already super challenging.

You see, I can appreciate a story even if it’s not written under my favourite tone. If the plot is good and, more importantly, if the characters are compelling, I’ll like it.

I know this is personal, but with compelling characters I can forgive a lot of plot holes and other problems in the narrative.

Writing character that already exists, though, adds a layer of complexity. They need to be compelling, but at the same time true to what they are. On that, the MCU has done a much better job than the Fox X-Men films.

And Jean ins't being treated as a side character at all her role is VERY germaine to the primary narrative and crucial to very important plot points. esp the introduced plots revolving around "beyond cosmic horror". Its just we get a different focus X-Man as the spotlight if you will but others also have their own mini arcs and highlights as well. theres even a mini arc involving Logan as variant of Dark Phoenix, and its pretty interesting.

MOST X-fans said no love triangles and so we're not pursuing that.

and I feel the whole point with this vers of Jean IS to help break the mold. not everyone has gotten to see this versitility with the character and something like this could help shake up the misconceptions ppl and evn I myself have. but thats why im here trying to start that discussion now :)

All right. Maybe you can think about a topic and ask the fans here. Then we can focus the discussion and be more productive. Something like: “how do you guys think Jean relates to…?”

I’m sure a lot of people will disagree (comic book writers are often contradict each other and we tend to remember the stories that resonated better with us), but we can try to refer to certain stories that support our views and it might be more helpful.

[Grinning Soul]

She sure played a key role in her attempt to cover up the crimes in Terra Verde, really THE key role.

Note how Phoenix was not involved, Grinning Soul. The X titles are reaching beyond that with Jean, definitely. This is Jean Grey, not Phoenix.

Two things:

1) I don't know when the story GMikey's boss is writing is set. I don't know if it has anything to do with Krakoa. It doesn't seem to be.
2) Regarding Krakoa, have you listened to the interview Si Spurrier gave recently? There are spoilers there that I've been very cautious not to bring up. But we should consider...

[Brian B]

Two things:

1) I don't know when the story GMikey's boss is writing is set. I don't know if it has anything to do with Krakoa. It doesn't seem to be.
2) Regarding Krakoa, have you listened to the interview Si Spurrier gave recently? There are spoilers there that I've been very cautious not to bring up. But we should consider...

I’m going to go Google this, stat! What blog or site is this on, here at CBR?

[WallStreeter]

I don’t hate what Hickman or Duggan, et al, are doing at all. I wish Hickman were writing more, and delegating less.

However, within the fictional Marvel Universe, I don’t see what mutants have done is at all heroic. It may have been until X-Force #10 and Giant-Size. Now, they’re a bunch of would-be, genocidal empire builders who need to be called on the carpet. Basically, Krakoa and Arakko have gone evil empire on us readers. Hickman’s flipped the hunted and feared script on its head. Now, it’s actually worse than what the fictional Bolivar Trask described. He only predicted enslavement and replacement of humans by
For those who would say I’m criticizing Hickman or the X-Men over this viewpoint, I always enjoyed Star Wars and the evil empire a great deal. Darth Vader is a very enjoyable character. Empire Strikes Back is arguably the best Star Wars movie. Just because someone in the Marvel Universe needs to deal the current Krakoan nation a death blow, IMO, doesn’t mean the story so far is bad. I’m enjoying it well enough. I just think Nimrod is now the hero. His speech to Mystique was exactly right.

It really doesn’t matter what older fans like. Marvel is aiming X-Me towards a younger generation of fans, towards the 21st century tastes. Meaning Krakoa is here to stay. Mutants becoming big family has been here at least since the Morrison run, in which mutants were becoming their own society. Hickman simply evolves that too a much bigger level.

It’s like all the other franchises they get rebooted. It’s always screw the old fans, the money is with younger generations.

There’s nothing anyone of us can do about this.

So I don’t let it bother me.

[Rang10]

Jean killed 5 billion people, so what’s a little adultery there? In fact most people would leave murderers, so it’s ridiculous to make Jean some paragon of virtue and Scott a villain. People are just projecting their own personal trauma onto these characters.

Jean never killed 5 billion, she isn't a murderer. There is a retcon that explain it is the Phoenix.
Cheating still abusive as heck on personal level. Now if there is a retcon that it wasn't Scott or he was mind controlled

[Brian B]

Jean never killed 5 billion, she isn't a murderer. There is a retcon that explain it is the Phoenix.
Cheating still abusive as heck on personal level. Now if there is a retcon that it wasn't Scott or he was mind controlled

Rang10, I publicly admitted in this thread or another conversation that you were 110% right about the X-Men turning bad. In the wake of the Gala with how Emma reacted to Hank McCoy and his genocide or possible genocide in Terra Verde, it is clear as day the X-Men and their X associates have become war criminals and worse. They are super baddies. You were right that they have gone bad.

However, I’m enjoying the turn of events, like I enjoy Darth Vader and the evil empire, or Goodfellas, or Godfather. We’re just not reading about heroes anymore in the X books. I always liked Empire Strikes Back. As such, I am okay with this strange turn.

Just remember, there was a lot of Jean influence on Phoenix. Maybe we should not be too surprised that a woman who is okay with frying 5 billion asparagus people would also be down with covering up war crimes in Terra Verde.

[Grinning Soul]

I’m going to go Google this, stat! What blog or site is this on, here at CBR?

https://www.xplainthexmen.com/2021/0...pents-in-eden/

The question is posed at about 26:11
Answer starts at about 26:41, the spoilers come a bit later at 27:53

I transcribed the spoiler for Lucyinthesky, but English is not my first language either, so apologies if there's any mistake:

spoilers:

"If these bad people had been using David Haller's brain as a model to find ways to expedite emm... the-the social decay of Krakoan society... The way they figured out how to do that is to inject something which makes everybody a little more selfish, a little bit more... emm... aggressive, a little bit more violent, a little bit more sensory emm... a little bit less empathetic than out here in the real world. That's what they tried to achieved by inserting Onslaught".

end of spoilers

Please, if you want to comment, be careful with the spoilers, okay?

[Brian B]

https://www.xplainthexmen.com/2021/0...pents-in-eden/

The question is posed at about 26:11
Answer starts at about 26:41, the spoilers come a bit later at 27:53

I transcribed the spoiler for Lucyinthesky, but English is not my first language either, so apologies if there's any mistake:
...
Please, if you want to comment, be careful with the spoilers, okay?

I’m not even going to check the spoiler out. I’m going to listen and learn. Thank you for the link!

[Grinning Soul]

I’m not even going to check the spoiler out. I’m going to listen and learn. Thank you for the link!

No problem. It's just a long interview and the spoiler part is quite short. Enjoy, though. :)

[MechaJeanix]

Jean never killed 5 billion, she isn't a murderer. There is a retcon that explain it is the Phoenix.
Cheating still abusive as heck on personal level. Now if there is a retcon that it wasn't Scott or he was mind controlled

Well Jean was a part of it even with the retcon but I'm fine with blaming the D'Bari on the Phoenix lol Usually I hate retcons but some like Moira at least add something to the mythos. I'd hate a retcon absolving Scott of the affair. Retcons like that I can't with. In real life you have to own your mistakes and try to be better.