Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Mercury]

You don't have to keep repeating anything. I follow what you are saying; I just think you misreading the tone.

Did you never ask a parent or guardian if you can have something, only for them to tell you "we'll see" while having no intention of buying whatever you just asked for?

This is that.

I would happily be wrong, but I think the point of that comment from the editor is that the pink form isn't something they are interested in.

I'm not misreading anything; I am going by what has been stated. On the other hand, you seem to be reading and misreading a lot into what has been explicitly expressed. Honestly - and I say this respectfully - I wish you would stop acting as if your assumptions are fact or truth; they're not. Again, this is how I feel when you write things like "This is that" as if your opinion were fact:



I wouldn't have any problem if you simply stated your opinion, but you act as if you know some hidden truth none of us are privy to.

Yeah.I'd like to know that as well.

Right? If only we had telepathy, lol.

I know.That is why they need something as big and important as HOX/POX to ignore it.

A little confused by what you mean by what I've bolded above.

Yeah.Guess well, wait and see.

1.Yeah, we know she is capable of all that.My point is what is her current norm.
2.Yeah, it's fine or even better than fine.Just a nitpick on my side.
3.Yeah.And I don't mind it.
4.Yeah, I really hope that they all are who they are.A clones or mental manipulation retcon makes all these books kinda pointless for characters.

1. I totally get spotlighting her "current norm," but I am more concerned with establishing what she is capable of, as stated by those in charge of her and the rest of the mutants.
2. It's a cute "nitpick"; it shows me you like her fiery side. I do too.
3. Frankly, I don't much mind it at all, either. We all know it's not forever; the majority of costumes in comic books, especially when it comes to the X-Men, never are.
4. Well, that depends on how they build upon a "clones or mental manipulation" development. I wouldn't necessarily see it as a retcon if they handled it logically and made us realize they had planned it from the very beginning. There is plenty of room in the already established parts of the story to do this.

[Mercury]

May I ask what you like about Emma in this issue? I have my own issues with her tbh

I thought this issue was fantastic. I love how Emma showed care and sincerity in wanting to help Jean. I also love how she made a big effort to empower her, pushing her to not fear or doubt herself. I am a HUGE critic of Emma Frost, who I still hold responsible for participating in Jean's abuse during the Dark Phoenix Saga and encouraging Scott, who was also half-responsible, to cheat on Jean. It was just a surprising exchange between these two characters. I wish we would see more interesting moments like this between the two - obviously as peers now - and more tenderness, with her signature toughness, from Emma, too.

[MechaJeanix]

There are many things I love about the Hickman era and I do remain optimistic - but I'm somewhere between Mercury and Kitty&Piotr<3. I do think that the current writers and editors see the Jean Grey character very differently than many of us. My fear is that they see her as the mom/wife/girlfriend character for the most part. However, Jean has had many showings separate from both Cyclops and Wolverine in the Hickman era. So while I don't think things are dire I do think there is plenty of room for improvement.

At least if someone is not happy with Jean's current direction we always have back issues and there are a lot of great content to go back and review - the Teen Jean era, X-men Red, the Morrison Era, OG X-factor and the Claremont stuff.

As for Teen Jean, I loved that JDW acknowledged that adult Jean can do the pink power form- that was great but it was also frustrating that it is something that she doesn't use. I also assumed that JDW or the current writers weren't a fan of that development. I think it is because of the concern of power creep since JDW had mentioned power creep in more than one interview.

When Jean came back and we had X-men Red Jean felt like a major character and it would have been interesting to see that continue in the absence of Scott and Logan but alas that period didn't last long. At least we got to see Storm and Jean lead the X-men together briefly in the Uncanny reboot (not a fav story of mine but again I try to find a silver lining) .

[Omega_DCD]

I thought this issue was fantastic. I love how Emma showed care and sincerity in wanting to help Jean. I also love how she made a big effort to empower her, pushing her to not fear or doubt herself. I am a HUGE critic of Emma Frost, who I still hold responsible for participating in Jean's abuse during the Dark Phoenix Saga and encouraging Scott, who was also half-responsible, to cheat on Jean. It was just a surprising exchange between these two characters. I wish we would see more interesting moments like this between the two - obviously as peers now - and more tenderness, with her signature toughness, from Emma, too.

Thanks for that. For me, it's more typical hypocrisy from Emma and writer's continued attempts to whitewash her and oversell her reputation as a teacher.

Right from go, she basically insults how Jean, and by extension, the rest of the O5, were trained. "Oh I'm not a fan of the Danger Room...I prefer FIELD TRAINING...that's how I learned". Really trick? First off it's not an either/or proposition. The O5 did BOTH. While you were mind-scamming your father for cars and your teachers for grades, Jean was out there from jump risking her life, going up against Magneto, his Brotherhood, including the very same Blob you saw fit to use as staging for this "training", the Juggernaut, hell, even The Stranger. Don't treat Jean as if she was only telekinetically floating billiard balls or something in a sheltered bunker.

Next, I thought the whole point was, that in the ABSENCE of a senior telepath like Xavier, than Emma was supposed to hone Jean's newly emerging telepathy...especially in the aftermath of the attacks from "baby Xavier", but no, first thing she does is block Jean's telepathy. Does Emms eventually show Jean how to prevent that from happening, or how to do it to others? No...instead she claims it's Jean's telekinesis that makes her a "more precise warrior", whatever that's supposed to mean. Mind you this power Jean already has had much more training with. It's also highly erroneous especially in today's context of Jean being specifically an Omega level TELEPATH.

Finally, stop sanitizing Jean to the point of being Bleach personified. Jean is as capable of darkness as anyone else, that was the point of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Yes she was manipulated, but they didn't create darkness, they stoked what was there but normally kept in check as most "non-evil" people do. Furthermore we've seen other "Dark Jean"s that didn't require her being bonded to the Phoenix Force or manipulated.

Just like the previous Teen Jean/Emma interactions, it seemed like a forced way to make them like each other in-universe when (A) The issue was with Adult Jean and Emma, not teen Jean, and (B) the actual leg work wasn't but in...just staring at each other having an Astral conversation we're not privy to and then them laughing and the onlookers saying, as if a 4th wall breaking proclamation to the readers, "THEY'RE FRIENDS NOW!!!"

[Phoenixx9]

Thanks for that. For me, it's more typical hypocrisy from Emma and writer's continued attempts to whitewash her and oversell her reputation as a teacher.

Right from go, she basically insults how Jean, and by extension, the rest of the O5, were trained. "Oh I'm not a fan of the Danger Room...I prefer FIELD TRAINING...that's how I learned". Really trick? First off it's not an either/or proposition. The O5 did BOTH. While you were mind-scamming your father for cars and your teachers for grades, Jean was out there from jump risking her life, going up against Magneto, his Brotherhood, including the very same Blob you saw fit to use as staging for this "training", the Juggernaut, hell, even The Stranger. Don't treat Jean as if she was only telekinetically floating billiard balls or something in a sheltered bunker.

Next, I thought the whole point was, that in the ABSENCE of a senior telepath like Xavier, than Emma was supposed to hone Jean's newly emerging telepathy...especially in the aftermath of the attacks from "baby Xavier", but no, first thing she does is block Jean's telepathy. Does Emms eventually show Jean how to prevent that from happening, or how to do it to others? No...instead she claims it's Jean's telekinesis that makes her a "more precise warrior", whatever that's supposed to mean. Mind you this power Jean already has had much more training with. It's also highly erroneous especially in today's context of Jean being specifically an Omega level TELEPATH.

Finally, stop sanitizing Jean to the point of being Bleach personified. Jean is as capable of darkness as anyone else, that was the point of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Yes she was manipulated, but they didn't create darkness, they stoked what was there but normally kept in check as most "non-evil" people do. Furthermore we've seen other "Dark Jean"s that didn't require her being bonded to the Phoenix Force or manipulated.

Just like the previous Teen Jean/Emma interactions, it seemed like a forced way to make them like each other in-universe when (A) The issue was with Adult Jean and Emma, not teen Jean, and (B) the actual leg work wasn't but in...just staring at each other having an Astral conversation we're not privy to and then them laughing and the onlookers saying, as if a 4th wall breaking proclamation to the readers, "THEY'RE FRIENDS NOW!!!"

This is a great post and I agree with you.

The only thing I might add is that besides not bleaching Jean, also do not darken her. Many times it seems (to me) as if they are stating Jean has/had a darker side more intense than the average person. She does not. If anything, I believe it to be less intense, as she usually wants to talk things through before resorting to other methods. It was the Hellfire Club in general and White Queen with Mastermind specifically, who intensified and drew out any darkness in Jean.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I'm not misreading anything; I am going by what has been stated. On the other hand, you seem to be reading and misreading a lot into what has been explicitly expressed. Honestly...

What I'm writing is fact though. The intent of the interview response was to nicely say something the person wondering about the pink power probably wouldn't want to hear. That was the context of the bit about Jean seeing one of her powers as something "she used to do". Did he rule out use of the power forever and promise it'll never be seen again? No, but he was trying to say it's highly unlikely to be seen again. I'm sorry, but I'm just not reading anything into that. That is what he meant.

If KrakoaJean suddenly pulls the pink power out of nowhere when it intentionally hasn't been mentioned in years, I'll appreciate it and like it regardless, but that would be odd writing. I welcome it's surprise use.

Thanks for that. For me, it's more typical hypocrisy from Emma and writer's continued attempts to whitewash her and oversell her reputation as a teacher...

Agreed. Especially about the sudden, off-panel development of friendship between Jean and Emma. Things happening suddenly were one of the bad parts about the Bendis era, along with some plots going on forever only to end very flatly or suddenly. I do want to see what he'd do with an adult Jean for a little bit though.

[Mercury]

I do think that the current writers and editors see the Jean Grey character very differently than many of us. My fear is that they see her as the mom/wife/girlfriend character for the most part. However, Jean has had many showings separate from both Cyclops and Wolverine in the Hickman era. So while I don't think things are dire I do think there is plenty of room for improvement. At least if someone is not happy with Jean's current direction we always have back issues and there are a lot of great content to go back and review - the Teen Jean era, X-men Red, the Morrison Era, OG X-factor and the Claremont stuff.

I admire your balanced opinion, which, as you stated, falls somewhere between Kitty&Piotr<3 and mine. Also, I completely understand how you feel. I choose to remain optimistic, but when I fleetingly entertain the notion that "they see her as the mom/wife/girlfriend character for the most part," I seek solace in the fact that, to paraphrase what someone posted in this thread not long ago, "they" won't be around forever or even too long, the cycle will begin anew, and Jean Grey will outlive them and rise to see another day. If "they" choose to view or limit Jean to such a degree, especially because of personal biases versus in service of a good story, it will ultimately reflect badly on their run(s) in the end.

Fortunately for us, writers have a shelf life; nearly 60-year-old comic book icons like Jean Grey do not.

As for Teen Jean, I loved that JDW acknowledged that adult Jean can do the pink power form...

Not only the pink power form but everything she did as time-displaced teenage Jean. Quite frankly, that's all I care about. It is canon and it will be used again, even if not under this writing team.

Thanks for that. For me, it's more typical hypocrisy from Emma and writer's continued attempts to whitewash her and oversell her reputation as a teacher.

Oh, I totally get where you're coming from. Honestly, Emma irritates me most of the time and I do find the whitewashing of her character curious. As I have stated before on this thread, I am not prone to admiring cunty, elitist, abusive, predatory characters, or real people, for that matter, so, for the most part, she does nothing for me. That's just not my bag.

Right from go, she basically insults how Jean, and by extension, the rest of the O5, were trained. "Oh I'm not a fan of the Danger Room...I prefer FIELD TRAINING...that's how I learned". Really trick? First off it's not an either/or proposition. The O5 did BOTH. While you were mind-scamming your father for cars and your teachers for grades, Jean was out there from jump risking her life, going up against Magneto, his Brotherhood, including the very same Blob you saw fit to use as staging for this "training", the Juggernaut, hell, even The Stranger. Don't treat Jean as if she was only telekinetically floating billiard balls or something in a sheltered bunker.

I think I give her a pass with this comment and other sly remarks she's made regarding Jean because, in the end, she always does concede and admit that Jean is 1) extremely, almost unfathomably powerful and 2) more powerful than her. Plus, in the past, she's begged Jean to "PLEASE DON'T HURT ME LIKE THIS!" and this will always reverberate in my memory like soothing ambiance music.

Next, I thought the whole point was, that in the ABSENCE of a senior telepath like Xavier, than Emma was supposed to hone Jean's newly emerging telepathy...especially in the aftermath of the attacks from "baby Xavier", but no, first thing she does is block Jean's telepathy. Does Emms eventually show Jean how to prevent that from happening, or how to do it to others? No...instead she claims it's Jean's telekinesis that makes her a "more precise warrior", whatever that's supposed to mean. Mind you this power Jean already has had much more training with. It's also highly erroneous especially in today's context of Jean being specifically an Omega level TELEPATH.

I still have to read the rest of the series to see how their relationship develops and finishes, but I get your point here. The thing is, she already knows Jean is telepathically more powerful than she is and has admitted so. She could have been forcing her to use only her telekinesis as a way of making her fight with one hand tied behind her back if you will, which a lot of good trainers do. Furthermore, during All-New X-Men, Jean had gotten really comfortable with using her telepathy both appropriately and inappropriately, so Emma could have blocked her telepathy as a form of punishment/discipline for those instances.

Finally, stop sanitizing Jean to the point of being Bleach personified. Jean is as capable of darkness as anyone else, that was the point of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Yes she was manipulated, but they didn't create darkness, they stoked what was there but normally kept in check as most "non-evil" people do. Furthermore we've seen other "Dark Jean"s that didn't require her being bonded to the Phoenix Force or manipulated.

I completely understand this complaint and preference and have shared both at certain points. I'm at the point now, however, where I love her regal and above-it-all quality. She doesn't need to show or prove that she can "be dark!!!!"; she already has. In fact, I'd much rather her be distinguished and secure in the fact that she can kick all of their asses if need be, because she can, already has, and will if pushed to that point.

Just like the previous Teen Jean/Emma interactions, it seemed like a forced way to make them like each other in-universe when (A) The issue was with Adult Jean and Emma, not teen Jean, and (B) the actual leg work wasn't but in...just staring at each other having an Astral conversation we're not privy to and then them laughing and the onlookers saying, as if a 4th wall breaking proclamation to the readers, "THEY'RE FRIENDS NOW!!!"

I get your point here, too, but to be fair, they addressed the telepathic affair right away when Emma repeatedly projected images of it into Jean's mind. What I loved most was how Jean not only brushed it off and spoke the truth by telling Emma that the one with the real problem was her, almost laughing at her, but also blew her away and straddled her when she had enough. That scene was ::chef's kiss::.

In the end, Jean has proven time and again what a simultaneous saint and gritty badass she can be, so I don't worry about either being proven about her by current writers. Her history and legacy speak for themselves. As I review her comics for my #JeanGreyFeats project on Twitter, I am amazed by how much of her history has been unequivocal in showing how humble yet almost peerlessly powerful she is; how she "swings between the brightest and darkest notes" with ease. I rest content with that.

[Micabe]

Eh, I’m not entirely sure the context of this question. From my own experience, I mean, if it’s your thoughts about it not imposed on anyone, then no one can take that away from you.

Needless to say, if someone is gonna bring a debate between 616 characters at base levels, bringing grown-up teen Jean Grey, from a future her current self was never a part of, is not gonna sit well with them because she would have never gone through those same experiences as that potential future. More importantly, because Teen Jean went back to her own era, that future no longer exists, since it happened because Ahab attacked the present day and possibly killed Iceman…..possibly. (His fate is unclear, but I think the hints from X-Men: Blue are to insinuate Bobby was killed and Magneto did something that contributed to turning the O4, Jean included into darker, yet still heroic, versions of themselves.) Bring that characterization to 616 Jean and you will find it doesn’t match her current thought-process, nor would it match the teen version, who believed in the good of Magneto last she met with him.

I still question whether or not adult Jean Grey currently has the memories or will develop her younger self's specialized skillset.

these three pages can be a bit confusing depending on which way one processes Jean/Jeen's diner sit-down conversation.

[Mercury]

The younger X-Men tried to return home on numerous occasions, with time itself fighting them along the way. The actions of Ahab and the younger Cable (jokingly referred to as Kid Cable) left the time-displaced X-Men with no choice but to finally head back to the past where they belong. However, every memory they collected during their time in the present remained by being transferred to their older selves, preserving their adventures so they wouldn't be erased from existence.

But for the X-Men to reset the timeline upon their arrival in the past, they needed to wipe their minds so they wouldn't remember everything that had happened to them. We mentioned earlier how the older X-Men were given these wiped memories, but the one negative is it did make the time-travelers revert back to how they were before Adult Beast showed up -- and in the young Iceman's case, that meant hiding his sexual preference once again.

Many readers took offense to Marvel forcing Iceman back to his previous status quo after such a major change was made to the character, even though the older Iceman still identifies as a gay man. Though the in-story reasoning made sense, it was still a tough pill to swallow for some fans.

https://www.cbr.com/extermination-x-men-breakdown/

I think it has been established that the time-displaced counterparts of the O5 are the ones who had their memories wiped, while the current O5 "collected" those memories and have retained them, i.e., they remember everything the time-displaced teenage versions of themselves did and experienced. This is further underscored by Senior Editor Jordan D. White's confirmation that current Jean can still do what teen Jean did.

[PyroFN]

There are many things I love about the Hickman era and I do remain optimistic - but I'm somewhere between Mercury and Kitty&Piotr<3. I do think that the current writers and editors see the Jean Grey character very differently than many of us. My fear is that they see her as the mom/wife/girlfriend character for the most part. However, Jean has had many showings separate from both Cyclops and Wolverine in the Hickman era. So while I don't think things are dire I do think there is plenty of room for improvement.

I, as well, though moreso Mercury’s. I do think Jean is moving away from what her teen self did. Most probably just to fit the tonal shift without hi-jacking the story. I personally am fine with family angle they are doing with her, due to the fact it’s the entire theming of Krakoa. Way of X speaks about children that the parents of Krakoa abandon, New Mutants touched on sibling connections like Karma’s brother coming back, Gabby’s brother and sister not being around for one reason or another, and we see Magneto taking back Wanda. (I’m withholding judgement about the Trial until after we get a full explanation of what happened to Wanda)

I’m on the more optimistic side that they aren’t forgetting Jean.

As for Teen Jean, I loved that JDW acknowledged that adult Jean can do the pink power form- that was great but it was also frustrating that it is something that she doesn't use. I also assumed that JDW or the current writers weren't a fan of that development. I think it is because of the concern of power creep since JDW had mentioned power creep in more than one interview.

You’d be definitely right. Even the Omega list is cut down because of there being too many over-baked characters, stated by Hickman. And when you look at the way they were telling the story of X of Swords, you get the impression that they wanted a high stakes story, yet you always will have in the back of your mind “can’t Storm literally sweep like have of these guys with a well-place hurricane? Can’t Magik summon an army of her own?”

They want to raise the stakes. The characters are stacked in their best characterizations. What do you do? You have them scaled down a bit. That in turn is why I am so surprised Duggan is fully committed to using Jean’s tk to the fullest.

[PyroFN]

I respect your opinion about Emma, though I would like to correct a few things.

Right from go, she basically insults how Jean, and by extension, the rest of the O5, were trained. "Oh I'm not a fan of the Danger Room...I prefer FIELD TRAINING...that's how I learned". Really trick? First off it's not an either/or proposition. The O5 did BOTH. While you were mind-scamming your father for cars and your teachers for grades, Jean was out there from jump risking her life, going up against Magneto, his Brotherhood, including the very same Blob you saw fit to use as staging for this "training", the Juggernaut, hell, even The Stranger. Don't treat Jean as if she was only telekinetically floating billiard balls or something in a sheltered bunker.

I do think Emma was being a brat in diminishing Jean’s experience to mostly Danger Room training, but what she is doing is training. Don’t put in quotations “training” as if this isn’t effective for Jean. The first time the original Jean tried to lift the Blob, she completely failed in that regard, doing the trade-marked fainting Jean fans hate. Comparing that improvement to what Teen Jean did is a marked improvement on all accounts.

Next, I thought the whole point was, that in the ABSENCE of a senior telepath like Xavier, than Emma was supposed to hone Jean's newly emerging telepathy...especially in the aftermath of the attacks from "baby Xavier", but no, first thing she does is block Jean's telepathy. Does Emms eventually show Jean how to prevent that from happening, or how to do it to others? No...instead she claims it's Jean's telekinesis that makes her a "more precise warrior", whatever that's supposed to mean. Mind you this power Jean already has had much more training with. It's also highly erroneous especially in today's context of Jean being specifically an Omega level TELEPATH.

Eh. It is, but if Emma did everything people said in her lifetime, she wouldn’t be where she is now. The only exception being in the field, where she collaborated with Scott and follows his lead. She has trained students of varying powers before, including in telekinesis. I’m pretty sure her requirements as a teacher changed down the line, since this takes place way later after Teen Jean first comes to the school. I’m sure if anyone with authority at the school found out about this training exercise, they would say something, especially Kitty.

And if the Cuckoo’s are anything to go by, it probably would not have mattered to begin with. It’s not a knock on Emma, but more a telling of how powerful and cunning Xavier Jr. is, since Emma has stated the Cuckoos are capable of blocking the original Charles Xavier and the Cuckoos have blocked Emma from their heads before.

Just like the previous Teen Jean/Emma interactions, it seemed like a forced way to make them like each other in-universe when (A) The issue was with Adult Jean and Emma, not teen Jean, and (B) the actual leg work wasn't but in...just staring at each other having an Astral conversation we're not privy to and then them laughing and the onlookers saying, as if a 4th wall breaking proclamation to the readers, "THEY'RE FRIENDS NOW!!!"

Agreed.

[Omega_DCD]

I respect your opinion about Emma, though I would like to correct a few things.



I do think Emma was being a brat in diminishing Jean’s experience to mostly Danger Room training, but what she is doing is training. Don’t put in quotations “training” as if this isn’t effective for Jean. The first time the original Jean tried to lift the Blob, she completely failed in that regard, doing the trade-marked fainting Jean fans hate. Comparing that improvement to what Teen Jean did is a marked improvement on all accounts.



Eh. It is, but if Emma did everything people said in her lifetime, she wouldn’t be where she is now. The only exception being in the field, where she collaborated with Scott and follows his lead. She has trained students of varying powers before, including in telekinesis. I’m pretty sure her requirements as a teacher changed down the line, since this takes place way later after Teen Jean first comes to the school. I’m sure if anyone with authority at the school found out about this training exercise, they would say something, especially Kitty.

And if the Cuckoo’s are anything to go by, it probably would not have mattered to begin with. It’s not a knock on Emma, but more a telling of how powerful and cunning Xavier Jr. is, since Emma has stated the Cuckoos are capable of blocking the original Charles Xavier and the Cuckoos have blocked Emma from their heads before.



Agreed.

Thank you, and thank you also to Mercury, Phoenixx9, and Kitty&Piotr<3 for your responses ��

My counterpoint to you PyroFN:

I'm not seeing anywhere in that issue that can attribute Jean's performance with regards to the Blob, to Emma. There are key differences to her original encounter with him, first being how early in her career that was, compared to ANXM Jean. She's been in so many more battles by this point and has much more experience. Plus different scenarios. 60s Jean tried to lift him while his power was anchoring him and making him unmoveable...Teen Jean caught an already airborne Blob as he was jumping at her.

Teen Jean was already refining her TK with other mentors. With Beast for instance, when she is levitating and had partially deconstructed a motorcycle...an updated version of her doing so originally in the 60s with a rifle...then goes even further and breaks it into even smaller and more individually manipulated parts simultaneously. Clearly training her TK can come from other, non-psychic instructors. So again for me it comes back to what Emma should have based her training with Jean is that which Jean had the least experience with, and what is Emma's specialty, telepathy. It's like Wolverine taking Angel to train, you expect hand to hand combat, weapons training, self-defense, or tracking or stealth, but instead it's aerial agility drills, which sure, that's always a plus, but that isn't your teaching forte, so why are you doing that?

In fact, I think Jean received more on-panel telepathy training from Kitty (how to focus and block out everyone's ambient thoughts) and Beast(how to enter someone's mind telepathically) than she has from Emma.

[Spiderfan001]

I'm not misreading anything; I am going by what has been stated. On the other hand, you seem to be reading and misreading a lot into what has been explicitly expressed. Honestly - and I say this respectfully - I wish you would stop acting as if your assumptions are fact or truth; they're not. Again, this is how I feel when you write things like "This is that" as if your opinion were fact:



I wouldn't have any problem if you simply stated your opinion, but you act as if you know some hidden truth none of us are privy to.



Right? If only we had telepathy, lol.



A little confused by what you mean by what I've bolded above.



1. I totally get spotlighting her "current norm," but I am more concerned with establishing what she is capable of, as stated by those in charge of her and the rest of the mutants.
2. It's a cute "nitpick"; it shows me you like her fiery side. I do too.
3. Frankly, I don't much mind it at all, either. We all know it's not forever; the majority of costumes in comic books, especially when it comes to the X-Men, never are.
4. Well, that depends on how they build upon a "clones or mental manipulation" development. I wouldn't necessarily see it as a retcon if they handled it logically and made us realize they had planned it from the very beginning. There is plenty of room in the already established parts of the story to do this.

For my parts

I wish.

I mean when you have a status quo shaking and rebuilding on such a level and a well recieved one at that you can afford to massively change character's personalities and arcs.
Cyclops had the same done in this era.

1.Cool
2.Yeah, that's my preference as well.Like that scene with U-men, kinda scary how calm she was.I do like the full burst stuff as well.
3.Yeah, that is how it is for the X-men.Someone like Spider-man has it the opposite.
4.Yeah, the negative is everything we got in Krakoa era wasn't really them.
Again Hickman has a built in extra life for Moira in case he needs to clean slate.

[PyroFN]

Thank you, and thank you also to Mercury, Phoenixx9, and Kitty&Piotr<3 for your responses ��

My worry with these things is always coming off abrasive instead of just…..firm? Confident? Not sure the right word is to mean unyielding without being rude or closed off to discussion. Point being, I’m glad it got across respectfully. Being antagonis to c was definitely not my goal.

My counterpoint to you PyroFN:

I'm not seeing anywhere in that issue that can attribute Jean's performance with regards to the Blob, to Emma. There are key differences to her original encounter with him, first being how early in her career that was, compared to ANXM Jean. She's been in so many more battles by this point and has much more experience. Plus different scenarios. 60s Jean tried to lift him while his power was anchoring him and making him unmoveable...Teen Jean caught an already airborne Blob as he was jumping at her.

True about the differences between the Blob encounters, but I do think credit can go to Emma Frost for making Jean focus on her tk. In-character, what exactly do you think Teen Jean would have done if her telepathy was available? I do think by having her go in with just her tk, she was able to demonstrate a good deal about herself that was mostly untouched because Xavier did for the most part teach Jean about control and less about using what you have to it’s fullest.

That was kind of Emma’s whole point about the Danger Room comment, as inaccurate as it is. Bendis is very iffy on his details, but the conveying was pretty clear that she meant that there is a time to not hold back, something Xavier would teach his other students, but not so much Jean. Not that he never does, but it’s a rarity that he did. Remember the psychic muzzle from the Onslaught Saga?

Teen Jean was already refining her TK with other mentors. With Beast for instance, when she is levitating and had partially deconstructed a motorcycle...an updated version of her doing so originally in the 60s with a rifle...then goes even further and breaks it into even smaller and more individually manipulated parts simultaneously. Clearly training her TK can come from other, non-psychic instructors. So again for me it comes back to what Emma should have based her training with Jean is that which Jean had the least experience with, and what is Emma's specialty, telepathy. It's like Wolverine taking Angel to train, you expect hand to hand combat, weapons training, self-defense, or tracking or stealth, but instead it's aerial agility drills, which sure, that's always a plus, but that isn't your teaching forte, so why are you doing that?

It kinda again falls back on what Xavier does. They taught her refinement, not progression. One could argue refinement is progression, but not the way Jean did it for most of her life. It wasn’t until the late-90’s, early-2000’s that Jean actually decided to explore further what she was capable of. Emma’s entire point is to not shy away from exploring who she is and to choose good, not being afraid of going down a path in case that it leads to darkness because it would in the end be her decision to choose wrong or right. And Emma does make a good point that if Jean were truly honing her tk to the best of her ability, she would already be capable of learning to fly.

Emma did mention teaching Jean next time on blocking Emma from doing something, which does say that Emma has been or will teach Jean telepathy and we see Jean later on having the capability of completely blocking Xavier Jr to the point where him exerting himself causes him to nosebleed from exertion. And even looking at the Stepford Cuckoos, had Jean kept up her training with Emma, she probably would have been as good as they are with more raw power. Heck, when the Cuckoo’s were the Five-In-One, Emma taught them to suspend their opponent in a psychic gibbet as they rewired their mental faculties to what was a functionally tabula rasa. I hardly doubt it took long for Jean to learn psychic blocking from Emma to where Emma required extra time to hone that part of Jean’s telepathy.

In fact, I think Jean received more on-panel telepathy training from Kitty (how to focus and block out everyone's ambient thoughts) and Beast(how to enter someone's mind telepathically) than she has from Emma.

Well, that’s because Bendis is all ideas. Hardly about following through with them. Best way is to compare Jean’s improvement. What was she capable of after training with Emma? Let’s skip to the end of the first All-New era and also head straight to the Extraordinary-Blue. She has:

•She for the most part bested Karma in a psychic battle

•She helps X-23 get past the trigger scent

•Skimmed through the mind of Marauder with a mind of a black hole and puts them to sleep

•Put Karnak in a psychic loop

•Has shut down pain receptors and eased the pain of others

•Amped the powers of her teammates

And so on. We saw nothing on-panel, but I think we can make it a point that Jean definitely improved from Emma, since there wasn’t anyone on the X-Men around to really help her with it. No non-psychic will know how to teach Jean how to do any of these things beyond describing the result and telling her to try harder. Emma would have shown her the intricacies of it all. Rachel was around at the school, but Jean made it a point that she was leaving to do other things by the time the O5 returned to the mansion. And then Scott died, which prompted Rachel leave, moreso giving no psychic on the X-Men to teach Jean the complicated stuff. Emma was truly the only person (beyond maybe the Cuckoos, who were uninterested in Jean at the time) qualified to teach Jean any of this.

[Omega_DCD]

*snip*

Very good post, you definitely presented the intent of the training much better than Emma by way of Bendis did...as for what would I have Jean do telepathically to Blob? I'm saying that I wouldn't have wanted the whole Madripoor/Blob scenario at all. I wanted a telepathic training scenario. I mean, the whole purpose was Jean's TP being unlocked sooner than originally, caused her to use her powers in whole new ways...pink form was one outcome, who's to say more abilities wouldn't have developed as well. Maybe manipulating Astral Plane energies onto the corporeal Plane...similar to what Nate Grey did to Xavier...perhaps the reverse,, converting her physical body into an Astral one(instead of leaving her body unconscious as most telepaths do when projecting onto the Astral Plane), maybe looking similar to how Amelia Vought mist-based teleportation/conversion. A deeper understanding for both Jean and Emma of what might be possible (even if not until she's adult Jean again) given her new developmental track is what I would have wanted. Bring in some of Emma's old school intellect and ingenuity in how she would analyze such a powerset.

That said, in the absence of actual on panel or referenced telepathic skill training from Emma, I have no problems attributing those developments to Jean herself. She's a quick learner. No one taught her how to project a psychic illusion...and yes she messed up the first time by projecting broadly instead of a targeted illusion, but then right after she does it correctly and incapacitates Lady Mastermind with her own specialty, illusions

Xavier said that when he unlocked Jean's telepathy, that she quickly became a telepath of intricate complexity...I see no reason why the same wouldn't be true when her TP unlocked due to his absence.

If Emma couldn't show one telepathic skill being taught in a whole issue dedicated to training, I'm not sure I'd be willing to credit her with the Extraordinary/Blue era skills you've listed by Jean. Teen Jean had a lot thrown her way since coming into the present, and as Emma basically says, there's something to be said about Field training

I do agree with Emma telling Jean to basically be all she can be, but that's a tidy, generic, boilerplate piece of advice that could have come from any mentor, and perhaps would have landed better had she not flicked off Jean's telepathy, when the very ability that prompted the lessons in the first place came about BECAUSE Jean's powers were working together far sooner than before.