Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I love the teal green legs and arms. Looks amazing. I also like the pose down to the fingers, lol!

I actually don't get the pose. Is she landing? Taking off? Why is she leaning that way?

[jmc247]

The difference now is that Magneto and charles are deceiving everyone on Krakoa. Magneto returned to be a arrogant mutant supremacist

Arrogant? Perhaps. He seems to believe his older dream of mutants being safe from humans and slowly inheriting the Earth is well at hand and will be achieved in time through Krakoa.

I would say he is not all that hostile to humans at the moment as he believes in the end mutants have won.

In Jean's conversation with Magneto about killing no man there is a kernel of unresolved conflict that may reappear in time given he made a distinction between war and normal times for the rule and that they would get to that when the time comes.

[Rang10]

You made me remind of Astonishing X-men written by Rosenberg where Xavier deleted Jean, Bobby and Hank memories, he couldn't do the same with Warren.
Do you think that it is not cannon?

He erased all minds. No reason to do it with Jean and then Warren has psychic resistance.

For me it is a bandoned plot point, rsoenberg was going to write a book starring Jean but then he was given Astonishing X-men with Alex summers

[Grinning Soul]

A good female writer coud be nice like Gail Simone or Kelly Thompson.

I never watchd outlander, but from what I heard it had some problems. It was from a romance novel written by a woman, so it is usually more balanced.

I really think the problem is Scott and Jean. she was doing her own things, carving her place in the world, collaboration with the avengers and now she is a housewife and waiting for Scott get the atitude to form the x-men.

I really don't see Scott being supportive of Jean. throught the years we saw a lot of Jean supporting him, while him not doing the same. He yelled because she was phoenix one time

Outlander has problems. I agree. But I was referring to the portrayal of the characters. I don't get a sense that one is more important to the story than the other. So it was just an example that it can be done.

Female writers can writer overly-supportive wall paper boyfriends too, though.

Anyway, yes, Scott did yell at her (off panel) and I liked the scene. You see? People aren't perfect. He isn't perfect either. Jean wearing that uniform is a traumatic experience to him. She appeared, wearing it out of the blue, he snapped. But the scene starts with him apologising, actually.

Here's an example of him being supportive:

X-Men #28 (the blue team book):

Scott and Jean talked to Charles about some of the decisions he had made recently. Particularly about taking Sabretooth as a prisoner. After they explain their disagreement, Charles leaves. And then Scott and Jean talk:

- Scott: Jean, what's wrong with you? You're not acting like yourself at all. First, you criticized him for acting out of anger and now you do it when he acts out of compassion?
- Jean: Don't you see, Scott? We're about to make a major change in our lives -- we're getting married! Making that decision was hard enough considering how we live but with Sabretooth here... Somehow, someway, it unnerves me. It frightens me, Scott.
- Scott: Jean, this has nothing to do with our wedding -- or what just happened between Cable and us -- this is about Logan, isn't it?
She doesn't answer, so he continues:
- Scott: I know how you felt -- still do, I guess -- I understand it, too... The fire burning inside him... the dangerous side of things can be incredibly exciting. I can see that excitment always appealed to you... You and he always shared that passion for life...
- Jean: Scott -- please -- it was a long time ago... a confusing time.
- Scott: Jean, it's important that we talk about these things-- I know how angry you were when Wolverine was hurt so badly-- we all were... But we have to respect his decision to leave.
- Jean: When I first met Wolverine-- heard him, argued with him, that first night in the garden -- it wasn't so much what I saw in him as what he made me see in myself. It frightened me. I saw a side I didn't think existed. A side I liked. What does that say about the kind of person I am, Scott?
- Scott: Honey, it only means you're human, like the rest of us--

And then they are interrupted.



Except for the part where Scott is talking about how he could see Logan was able to affect Jean's passionate side - which is something that is clearly difficult for him - he's holding her arms, caressing her hair and face, when she's feeling ashamed. More than in words, he is phisically comforting her, communicating that he understands that she is not perfect and he accepts that, even though it's clearly not easy for him.

We tend to think Jean is always there to take care of Scott, but that's not true. It's always been mutual. Scott is just more screwed up, which makes sense if you consider what kind of childhood he had as opposed to hers.

[Dam]

He erased all minds. No reason to do it with Jean and then Warren has psychic resistance.

For me it is a bandoned plot point, rsoenberg was going to write a book starring Jean but then he was given Astonishing X-men with Alex summers

Was that book X-Men Red?

[Grinning Soul]

I actually don't get the pose. Is she landing? Taking off? Why is she leaning that way?

I think she's actually posing for a picture, red carpet style.

[Rang10]

Was that book X-Men Red?

That is my guess, it was the only other book launched at the time starring Jean

[Phoenixx9]

I actually don't get the pose. Is she landing? Taking off? Why is she leaning that way?

Jean is coming in for a landing!

[Havok83]

It should be allowed on reverse only with these female characters



The difference now is that Magneto and charles are deceiving everyone on Krakoa. Magneto returned to be a arrogant mutant supremacist

No one knows that so it doesnt matter and therefore has no bearing on anyone's opinion of him

In particular about Scott and Jean, though: what does it bother you? Is it the fact that it seems she's always there being supportive? Because, it's not just her that plays that role. He was very supportive of her too.

I never said I had a problem with Scott and Jean. I love them

[Grinning Soul]

I never said I had a problem with Scott and Jean. I love them

Sorry, I didn't mean that. I know you even started the Jott thread. :)

I had combined your post and Rang10's because they were related, that's why the question was there. Sorry again.

[Askani's Flame]

Was that book X-Men Red?

That is my guess, it was the only other book launched at the time starring Jean

It's the Astonishing X-Men Annual. Since Xavier was brought back in that book they had the dinner and mind wipe happen there.

[Havok83]

You made me remind of Astonishing X-men written by Rosenberg where Xavier deleted Jean, Bobby and Hank memories, he couldn't do the same with Warren.
Do you think that it is not cannon?

He erased all minds. No reason to do it with Jean and then Warren has psychic resistance.

For me it is a bandoned plot point, rsoenberg was going to write a book starring Jean but then he was given Astonishing X-men with Alex summers

Thats not true. Xavier mindwiped Warren and the rest of the X-men save Psylocke in AXM #10. He definitely has the capacity to do so with Warren and did. The annual did not say he didnt

[Grinning Soul]

An element of the problem is when these characters were created. Lorna and Jean were both created in the 60s, when female characters were still generally preferred as more domestic, more defined by their relationships to men around them. Instead of challenging and correcting this, some subsequent writers decided to treat such usage as sacrosanct and like Lorna and Jean must adhere to it, while creating and introducing new women (Storm, Rogue, Shadowcat, etc) that did not. It comes down to a judgment call by those writers that such depictions are somehow essential to those characters' identities, rather than something that should be moved away from as part of modernizing characterization.

Ironically, at least with Lorna (I don't know Jean's history well enough to speak on it), she had points in those pre-Giant-Size X-Men days where she opposed being seen that way, only for future writers to forget those moments.

There's been a limited amount of movement on this over the years, e.g. Sue Storm going from Invisible Girl to Invisible Woman or Jane Foster becoming Thor, but I'm a bit hard-pressed to say it's all been consistent. I think most people would still say Sue Storm is mainly "Reed Richards' girlfriend/wife." I think Jane is caught in between being known for her time as Thor, and being known as Thor's love interest.

Sorry, I only saw your comment now.

Back in the 70s, CC was already writing Jean as her own woman. She was certainly more conservative than Storm, for instance, but I like it because he didn't completely re-invent her. He wrote her in a way that made us feel like she was just growing up, transitioning from a shy teenager to a vibrant young woman.

I don't think Jean was ever just the girlfriend/wife, though, exactly because Scott was supportive of hers too. We do have two problems, though:

1) Female characters, in general, are given less development, regardless of being in a relationship or not.
2) Scott is more troubled than Jean, so even if we didn't have the problem in #1, it would be expected that we saw more scenes of her being supportive.

I think certain ideas about Jean are just factually untrue. It's something a writer says or some fans express in frustration and it's repeated so often it becomes the truth.

Something we mentioned recently here is this myth that Jean dresses like a soccer mom, which is an idea that started during Morrison's run and just stuck.

[Phoenixx9]

Sorry, I only saw your comment now.

Back in the 70s, CC was already writing Jean as her own woman. She was certainly more conservative than Storm, for instance, but I like it because he didn't completely re-invent her. He wrote her in a way that made us feel like she was just growing up, transitioning from a shy teenager to a vibrant young woman.

Something we mentioned recently here is this myth that Jean dresses like a soccer mom, which is an idea that started during Morrison's run and just stuck.

I have also read online that people have seen Jean as a "den mother" for the team.

[Grinning Soul]

I have also read online that people have seen Jean as a "den mother" for the team.

Which she is, to a point. She's a maternal person. But it's reductive to say she's just that.

She's also the woman who didn't react well when Rachel appeared. Like I said, she's complex and nuanced. It's not easy to write her well and most writers don't even bother. They just write her considering whatever biased views they have of her.

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