Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[salarta]

I totally get it. I don't like it either when a character has to suffer (either directly or by bad characterization or downright ridicule) because of another character.

For instance, writers who like Jean and Logan together love to do that to Scott, which generates hate towards Jean! As if Jean herself isn't being treated poorly because of their desire to write fan-fiction in the actual comics. Classic X-Men #27 is the perfect example of it, at its worst. And that's not mention how many times Jean was indirectly or directly mocked/mischaracterised, in-story, to make Scott and Emma look better as a couple. It's cheap and petty, really. Not to mention unnecessary.

So, really: I *get* what you mean.

And I really hope we don't get anything remotely like that in the new book. I don't think we will, though.

That being said, I will give the book a fair chance, but I'm also guarded, as you put it.

There's a definite problem of some fans blaming writer/editor/executive decisions on the characters. I think for some, it's easier to direct their feelings toward a fictional character that isn't an actual person than to deal with the complicated matter of real world creative decisions and biases. Or in some cases, there's nothing really wrong with the work itself but they don't like what it did, so they feel they have no outlet for their feelings beyond attacking the characters. It's an easy trap to fall into, especially if a company encourages that kind of behavior. I think fandoms are getting better about it though. I used to see so much activity in Final Fantasy fandom where Tifa and Aeris were treated like rivals for Cloud, or people hated on Rinoa, but nowadays it's more common to see fans loving Tifa and Aeris doing things together and leaving Cloud out of the picture entirely. I think that's coming to comics fandom too, maybe slower, but still there.

[Havok83]

In Storm's case, the context is that it immediately follows Jean reeling from the psychic backlash of someone's death scream as they were murdered by Proteus

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And to me I find it more neutral to simply offer help(especially after an attack) as opposed to doubting one's capabilities (for example...Storm: "Jean, you shouldn't strain yourself...let me transport our non-flying X-Men instead")

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The fact that he does this not long after Jean explicitly tells him that she's tired of suppressing her powers due to the fears of others, and wants to start exploring all she is capable of, just comes across as patronizing.

And going back to the rapport thing, how must it feel for Jean, coming from someone who's supposed to know her the most, inside and out, and gone through so much together, to constantly feel his doubt seeping through into your mind, regardless of better intentions.

LOL...whats funny is that Phoenix carrying 5 people without strain was treated as a big feat back then whereas Jean is known for doing that to a larger degree.

[Phoenixx9]

In Storm's case, the context is that it immediately follows Jean reeling from the psychic backlash of someone's death scream as they were murdered by Proteus

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And to me I find it more neutral to simply offer help(especially after an attack) as opposed to doubting one's capabilities (for example...Storm: "Jean, you shouldn't strain yourself...let me transport our non-flying X-Men instead")

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The fact that he does this not long after Jean explicitly tells him that she's tired of suppressing her powers due to the fears of others, and wants to start exploring all she is capable of, just comes across as patronizing.

And going back to the rapport thing, how must it feel for Jean, coming from someone who's supposed to know her the most, inside and out, and gone through so much together, to constantly feel his doubt seeping through into your mind, regardless of better intentions.

But Jean was PHOENIX. Phoenix could move a planet with her TK. Lifting 5 men was not a strain, was nowhere near a strain even after a psychic backlash. As noted, when Jean says she is handling the load just fine. Marvel Girl pre-Phoenix could lift way more than the weight of 5 men.

I wish the characters would respect Jean for her power and not what they perceive as a lack thereof.

[Grinning Soul]

It is no secret that the Morrison era is by far my favorite X-men run. I loved Jean, Scott, Beast, and Emma in that series. I even came to like Scott and Emma together but I never liked the jabs toward Jean from any of the characters post Morrison era. I hated that. During Morrison's run my favs were Jean, Scott, and Beast. But when Scott became more extreme (I recall at the time fans on the internet compared him to Dick Cheney but now most of the progressive/liberal/radical fans are big fans of the more extreme Scott and see him as some sort of progressive revolutionary) I started not feeling Scott or Emma. By the Phoenix 5 nonsense I had tapped out of X-men only to come back later during the O5 Bendis stuff (and I started buying regularly during the Teen Jean solo).

Long story short, yes I loved Scott and Emma but I hated all the jabs at Jean and how their love was just a teen love story, that Jean was no good for him, that Jean held him back, etc. It was so gross.

Now my favs are definitely Jean, Storm, and Iceman. I still love Scott and Emma though when written well.

I prefer Scott and Jean to be apart but I can stomach when they are together as long as they both get to be complete characters. Sometimes the women characters do not fair well with being in a pairing imo.

My hope is that Duggan will write scenes of them being together that is not cringe but they still can do stuff on their own. I also do not want to see a lot of JEAN!!!! and SCOTT!!! scenes lol

While I think there were some good aspects about Morrison's run, I'm one of the few who don't like it. It's not my cup of tea but I don't want to go over the reasons why here because I don't want to annoy anyone.

I liked some aspects of Scott and Emma's relationship too and I really didn't think that meantioning Jean, let alone mocking her or mischaracterising her was nedded. I mean, the character was already dead. Was that really necessary? My feeling was: just write an interesting relationship and stop trying to make it what it is not. Make it interesting for what it is.

I do agree with you that female characters tend not to fair well with being paired up. But I don't think the solution is not to have them paired up. I think the solution is for us to point out bad characterisation so future writers learn.

Romatic relationships are a part of the experience for a lot of humans so, the way I see it, they should be part of experience for a lot of characters. We need to do better when it comes to representing that in fiction and that includes comic books.

[Grinning Soul]

There's a definite problem of some fans blaming writer/editor/executive decisions on the characters. I think for some, it's easier to direct their feelings toward a fictional character that isn't an actual person than to deal with the complicated matter of real world creative decisions and biases. Or in some cases, there's nothing really wrong with the work itself but they don't like what it did, so they feel they have no outlet for their feelings beyond attacking the characters. It's an easy trap to fall into, especially if a company encourages that kind of behavior. I think fandoms are getting better about it though. I used to see so much activity in Final Fantasy fandom where Tifa and Aeris were treated like rivals for Cloud, or people hated on Rinoa, but nowadays it's more common to see fans loving Tifa and Aeris doing things together and leaving Cloud out of the picture entirely. I think that's coming to comics fandom too, maybe slower, but still there.

Do you know what is an even bigger problem? It’s that Marvel writers themselves aren’t immune from this behaviour. You see? Lots of them were fans before they became writers and very few of them question the pre-conceived ideas they had as fans once they become writers. So guess what happens? They write them into their stories, many times ignoring continuity and just making the problem worse.

So that’s why I truly believe that it is important for us to discuss these matters, to try to be fair and precise, to actively point out when some argument isn’t factual, but just a part of an echo chamber that keeps getting perpetrated because no one ever challenges it.

And it’s one of the reasons why I really enjoy your posts, regardless of how much I agree with you. Because you seem to be a person who is willing to engage in fair criticism and discerning analysis of the stories. :)

The mere fact that you recognise that another character was written poorly on a story where you think your favourite was written well, speaks volumes. :)

[MechaJeanix]

LOL...whats funny is that Phoenix carrying 5 people without strain was treated as a big feat back then whereas Jean is known for doing that to a larger degree.

I love the image from Judgement War.

Yeah the original Phoenix years the phoenix power was mainly described as high level tk/tp but it gradually became more cosmic in nature. So Jean lifting 5 people and zipping through the air was impressive. Cut to X-factor and Jean's tk was a lot stronger than before but at the time Rachel was Phoenix and the phoenix was now completely a cosmic entity. Power creep in action! Of course now almost all telekinetics are insanely powerful.

While I think there were some good aspects about Morrison's run, I'm one of the few who don't like it. It's not my cup of tea but I don't want to go over the reasons why here because I don't want to annoy anyone.

I liked some aspects of Scott and Emma's relationship too and I really didn't think that meantioning Jean, let alone mocking her or mischaracterising her was nedded. I mean, the character was already dead. Was that really necessary? My feeling was: just write an interesting relationship and stop trying to make it what it is not. Make it interesting for what it is.

I do agree with you that female characters tend not to fair well with being paired up. But I don't think the solution is not to have them paired up. I think the solution is for us to point out bad characterisation so future writers learn.

Romatic relationships are a part of the experience for a lot of humans so, the way I see it, they should be part of experience for a lot of characters. We need to do better when it comes to representing that in fiction and that includes comic books.

It is fine. There are others here who loathe the Morrison era. For me it is the definitive X-men run.. trumping even the beloved Claremont. There were so many things I loved: the school, the X-men being teachers but also an emergency/mutant rescue operation. Jean finally got to truly be Phoenix again and have her own subplot that ran through the entire run. She was competent, powerful, and a leader. I loved her being acting headmistress. I loved her press conference, the fight with Cassandra Nova, the fight with Emma, her role in Planet X, and then there was Here Comes Tomorrow. Seeing Jean as the White Phoenix which was a call back to the classic X-men story by Claremont was the icing on the cake.

I also loved Beast's transformation to Cat Beast, Wolverine being a major player but not hogging the limelight, and Scott being less uptight. Emma was a very fun character. I also loved Quire and Xorn and his special class. Riot at Xavier's is one of my all time favorite stories.

It also helps that I was in my early 20's when this story came out and living my best life while in college. It was an exciting time for me and I have so many fond memories of those years. I used to walk to the comic store in between classes at college to go read the latest New X-men issue.

[rhaenylis]

I might have been able to enjoy this run if it hadn't been for the affair (or more exactly Scott's mind rape orchestrated by Emma to piss off Jean), Xorneto as well as those initial plans for Rogue and Storm before they were saved by Claremont

[Omega_DCD]

But Jean was PHOENIX. Phoenix could move a planet with her TK. Lifting 5 men was not a strain, was nowhere near a strain even after a psychic backlash. As noted, when Jean says she is handling the load just fine. Marvel Girl pre-Phoenix could lift way more than the weight of 5 men.

I wish the characters would respect Jean for her power and not what they perceive as a lack thereof.

Phoenix's strength actually works against her here...the stronger the psychic, the stronger the psychic backlash...and the panel literally says "seconds later". Tbh, Storm's line reads simply as a setup for Scott's inner monolog...and even if she was actually unsure of Jean's ability in this moment, it's far and away a less frequent occurrence than from Scott. She's often Jean's biggest cheerleader along with Hank.

Later during the Hellfire Club rescue, after Jean performs some feats to help them infiltrate, his thoughts say Jean used to be the weakest X-Man...like, how when she's way more capable than Angel was for sure...the same Jean that hurt Juggernaut through his helmet...the same Jean that telekinetically held him and the rest of the team at bay when Professor X was not to be disturbed. That's not love or worry or being protective. That's straight up his unfortunate viewpoint of who "his Jean" was pre-Phoenix.

[Grinning Soul]

It is fine. There are others here who loathe the Morrison era. For me it is the definitive X-men run.. trumping even the beloved Claremont. There were so many things I loved: the school, the X-men being teachers but also an emergency/mutant rescue operation. Jean finally got to truly be Phoenix again and have her own subplot that ran through the entire run. She was competent, powerful, and a leader. I loved her being acting headmistress. I loved her press conference, the fight with Cassandra Nova, the fight with Emma, her role in Planet X, and then there was Here Comes Tomorrow. Seeing Jean as the White Phoenix which was a call back to the classic X-men story by Claremont was the icing on the cake.

I also loved Beast's transformation to Cat Beast, Wolverine being a major player but not hogging the limelight, and Scott being less uptight. Emma was a very fun character. I also loved Quire and Xorn and his special class. Riot at Xavier's is one of my all time favorite stories.

It also helps that I was in my early 20's when this story came out and living my best life while in college. It was an exciting time for me and I have so many fond memories of those years. I used to walk to the comic store in between classes at college to go read the latest New X-men issue.

That's interesting... I've been hearing this more often lately from people who like Morrison's run: that it was their first contact with the X-Men or the first time they seriously, continuously read the X-Men comics. I wonder if that has an effect on those readers: I mean, if you frame it your mind that that is what the X-Men are supposed to be like, can you think anything else is as good in comparison? I guess we'll never know, but I find it intriguing.

(We might see it happening again with this Krakoan era. It'd make sense.)

You see? I don't hate Morrison's run. But I can't make myself like it either. I've tried. I really did, exactly because so many people love it, you know? I wanted to enjoy it as much. So far, I wasn't able to because some things really, really bother me. Anyway, I think even if you put together the people who loathe it and those who just don't really enjoy it, you'd still have a small part of the population of fans.

And I'm so tired of people getting things that I'm writing out of context or feeling personally attacked by my opinions, that I prefer not talk too much about it. I hope you understand.


EDIT:

I might have been able to enjoy this run if it hadn't been for the affair (or more exactly Scott's mind rape orchestrated by Emma to piss off Jean), Xorneto as well as those initial plans for Rogue and Storm before they were saved by Claremont

You are a much braver person than I am and I commend you for that! :D

[Grinning Soul]

Phoenix's strength actually works against her here...the stronger the psychic, the stronger the psychic backlash...and the panel literally says "seconds later". Tbh, Storm's line reads simply as a setup for Scott's inner monolog...and even if she was actually unsure of Jean's ability in this moment, it's far and away a less frequent occurrence than from Scott. She's often Jean's biggest cheerleader along with Hank.

Later during the Hellfire Club rescue, after Jean performs some feats to help them infiltrate, his thoughts say Jean used to be the weakest X-Man...like, how when she's way more capable than Angel was for sure...the same Jean that hurt Juggernaut through his helmet...the same Jean that telekinetically held him and the rest of the team at bay when Professor X was not to be disturbed. That's not love or worry or being protective. That's straight up his unfortunate viewpoint of who "his Jean" was pre-Phoenix.

When she first arrived at the team, she was the weakest of the group. You could argue she was lacking their training. It would be a fair thing to say, even. But she was the weakest. And she quickly grew from there. We don't know exactly at what moment he was referring to.

Look, love and worry and being protective manifest in ways that aren't always beautiful. Especially when the person who feels them has the personality of someone who is a worrier, who has trouble with abandonment and loss (consider his past prior to joining the X-Men). It doesn't make the feelings or the intentions less genuine. The expression of these feelings can be flawed, can be enhanced by other factors which many times aren't positive. But that's part of life. It's part of being young and immature.

And Jean has the right to feel annoyed about it. But I think she understands it comes from a good place, even if it's misguided and exaggerated and exasperating.

The whole point is that he was growing out of it. Shouldn't this be what matters the most?

[Rang10]

I liked Scott and Emma as written by Morrison yes. Morrison made Scott a little less uptight and their Emma was very fun... the best version of her character imo. Their version of Jean is also my favorite. I even liked Scott and Emma under Whedon though I felt Whedon redid Morrison's story with Scott - he started uptight and became less so through the run. Whedon's Emma was too cold and "ice queen" for my tastes.

It was the Brubaker/Fraction run that really divided me on Scott and Emma and then of course the Bendis era. At that point I had enough.

Morrison made Emma and Scott the smallest humans on earth (later it became Beast) Scott was a sad man blaming his wife for his failures, Emma petty AF using Scott to hurt Jean. Really great example of opposite of feminism. The entire run is misoginistic. people just let things slide because they think Morrison is a genius, but more and more I see more people speaking out about problematics aspects of Morrison work on women.
I don't even speak about Wheon, I'm over him.

Bendis era was the best Emma and Scott, it was clear from Gillen that the reltionship was already over. At least Bendis warmed me on Scott, he had courage to end with Emma and teen Scott was in shock with the bad things Scott did. he also seemed for the first time truly regret things.

While I think there were some good aspects about Morrison's run, I'm one of the few who don't like it. It's not my cup of tea but I don't want to go over the reasons why here because I don't want to annoy anyone.

I liked some aspects of Scott and Emma's relationship too and I really didn't think that meantioning Jean, let alone mocking her or mischaracterising her was nedded. I mean, the character was already dead. Was that really necessary? My feeling was: just write an interesting relationship and stop trying to make it what it is not. Make it interesting for what it is.

I do agree with you that female characters tend not to fair well with being paired up. But I don't think the solution is not to have them paired up. I think the solution is for us to point out bad characterisation so future writers learn.

Romatic relationships are a part of the experience for a lot of humans so, the way I see it, they should be part of experience for a lot of characters. We need to do better when it comes to representing that in fiction and that includes comic books.

Writers have been mean to Jean since Morrison. I don't think it was nice to keep badmouthing the character even after she was dead. It wasn't even to make the relationship look good it was pure hate to the character.

I would like to see them confronted about their hate on Jean and how it was sexist to do it. Too bad the interviews are so fluffy. Morrison did one recently about his x-men run that he was gloating about his influence on Hickman's run.
Sorry, Not sorry for brubaker not getting money from Winter Soldier LOL

[MechaJeanix]

That's interesting... I've been hearing this more often lately from people who like Morrison's run: that it was their first contact with the X-Men or the first time they seriously, continuously read the X-Men comics. I wonder if that has an effect on those readers: I mean, if you frame it your mind that that is what the X-Men are supposed to be like, can you think anything else is as good in comparison? I guess we'll never know, but I find it intriguing.

(We might see it happening again with this Krakoan era. It'd make sense.)

You see? I don't hate Morrison's run. But I can't make myself like it either. I've tried. I really did, exactly because so many people love it, you know? I wanted to enjoy it as much. So far, I wasn't able to because some things really, really bother me. Anyway, I think even if you put together the people who loathe it and those who just don't really enjoy it, you'd still have a small part of the population of fans.

And I'm so tired of people getting things that I'm writing out of context or feeling personally attacked by my opinions, that I prefer not talk too much about it. I hope you understand.


EDIT:



You are a much braver person than I am and I commend you for that!

I just want to clarify it wasn't my first contact with the X-men. I've been reading X-men since 1992 when I was 10 years old. I started with the 90s (cartoon was the gateway) and quickly went into the back issues. I fell off around 1996 and came back at 1998 but the X-men was just so-so then. It was Morrison's run that made me feel excited for X-men again. I loved every issue something that I cannot say about any other X-men run. It was just exciting. I still get excited when I read it again because it takes me back to early 2000s. I just thought the Morrison run was a quality product and for me it eclipsed the original Claremont run - though of course I still love the Claremont run.

The affair stuff did bother me because I grew up evangelical Christian, however it is something that I've come to accept. Cheating is rather normal even if it is not a good thing. I was sad at first as a Scott and Jean fan so I do understand fans who didn't like that part. However the X-men is a soap opera and I accept that relationship drama will always be in the mix or something that may be at play.

Plus I was able to look past it because I found the story so interesting.

Also, I love what you add here to the discussions and I am glad that we can have civil discussions about things that we disagree. I wish more people were able to do that.

[Omega_DCD]

When she first arrived at the team, she was the weakest of the group. You could argue she was lacking their training. It would be a fair thing to say, even. But she was the weakest. And she quickly grew from there. We don't know exactly at what moment he was referring to.

Look, love and worry and being protective manifest in ways that aren't always beautiful. Especially when the person who feels them has the personality of someone who is a worrier, who has trouble with abandonment and loss (consider his past prior to joining the X-Men). It doesn't make the feelings or the intentions less genuine. The expression of these feelings can be flawed, can be enhanced by other factors which many times aren't positive. But that's part of life. It's part of being young and immature.

And Jean has the right to feel annoyed about it. But I think she understands it comes from a good place, even if it's misguided and exaggerated and exasperating.

The whole point is that he was growing out of it. Shouldn't this be what matters the most?

He's talking about Jean pre-Phoenix in her entirety, not just the beginning(which still isn't true as in issue #1 she's telekinetically twirling Beast, the heaviest of the bunch, with no sweat)...Jean definitely grew over the years(she's always growing) bit she was never the weakest

My point was his characterization re: Jean in X-Men #28 DID show growth...but unfortunately through the following eras he continues to underestimate Jean.

The end of their relationship during and after Morrison's run made me re-evaluate it...and look beyond just the status quo I took at face value(the X-Men's premiere married couple) and instead how they were actually speaking to and about each other...and sometimes it felt as if Jean was carrying more than her share of the relationship...along with the high frequency of him projecting his insecurities onto her.

Not trying to change anyone else's mind, but he did it in the O5 days, in the ANAD/Phoenix days, in the X-Factor days, in the Blue/Gold era days, post-OZT, in Morrison's run...just...for me, on a whole, it was revelatory

[Grinning Soul]

I just want to clarify it wasn't my first contact with the X-men. I've been reading X-men since 1992 when I was 10 years old. I started with the 90s (cartoon was the gateway) and quickly went into the back issues. I fell off around 1996 and came back at 1998 but the X-men was just so-so then. It was Morrison's run that made me feel excited for X-men again. I loved every issue something that I cannot say about any other X-men run. It was just exciting. I still get excited when I read it again because it takes me back to early 2000s. I just thought the Morrison run was a quality product and for me it eclipsed the original Claremont run - though of course I still love the Claremont run.

The affair stuff did bother me because I grew up evangelical Christian, however it is something that I've come to accept. Cheating is rather normal even if it is not a good thing. I was sad at first as a Scott and Jean fan so I do understand fans who didn't like that part. However the X-men is a soap opera and I accept that relationship drama will always be in the mix or something that may be at play.

Plus I was able to look past it because I found the story so interesting.

Also, I love what you add here to the discussions and I am glad that we can have civil discussions about things that we disagree. I wish more people were able to do that.

Even if it wasn't your first run, I suppose it would be fair to say it was the first one who really excited you, right? I guess the effect is the same (for a person who started during Morrison's run but didn't really like it, they probably didn't kept reading and maybe they only got back and got hooked during Fraction's run or something). Sorry I didn't express it more clearly.

Look, I think cheating is always wrong, because even if the romantic feelings are over, the other person will most likely still get hurt and I think it hurts the person who cheats too (in a different way). But it's not the cheating that bothers me. It's the abuse, it's the preying on someone who is clearly dealing with a lot of trauma, depression, super low self-esteem and very little sense of self. Just because the victim is a male and society doesn't recognise abuse as readily, it doesn't make it any less atrocious. If Scott was a woman and the telepath who was "treating" him was a man, fans would have no problem calling the telepath a rapist. Heck, I heard people calling Xavier a rapist for much, much, much less than that.

But that's not my only issue with his run. The list is bigger and I don't want to go into it. I just think I should point this out because I'm very vocal about how much I love Jean and Scott as a couple and it might give people the wrong idea. But really: the affair is not my only issue with the run.

As for discussion about things we disagree... I love it. As long as people are respectful, I like it as much as when people agree. Even if I don't change my mind, I honestly take what the posters are saying into consideration and it often enriches my perspective. At the very least, it challenges me to re-evaluate my opinions and I think it's a wonderful thing. If we never do it, we never grow, right? I understand that discussions about fictional characters and stories won't have a direct impact in my life, but it helps training my brain to be more flexible and that does impact my life directly.

So I'm really grateful to all of you, guys (who enjoy engaging in these discussions), for the opportunity. :)

[Rang10]

He's talking about Jean pre-Phoenix in her entirety, not just the beginning(which still isn't true as in issue #1 she's telekinetically twirling Beast, the heaviest of the bunch, with no sweat)...Jean definitely grew over the years(she's always growing) bit she was never the weakest

My point was his characterization re: Jean in X-Men #28 DID show growth...but unfortunately through the following eras he continues to underestimate Jean.

The end of their relationship during and after Morrison's run made me re-evaluate it...and look beyond just the status quo I took at face value(the X-Men's premiere married couple) and instead how they were actually speaking to and about each other...and sometimes it felt as if Jean was carrying more than her share of the relationship...along with the high frequency of him projecting his insecurities onto her.

Not trying to change anyone else's mind, but he did it in the O5 days, in the ANAD/Phoenix days, in the X-Factor days, in the Blue/Gold era days, post-OZT, in Morrison's run...just...for me, on a whole, it was revelatory

I think it is my visions too. Scott never got over the fact that Jean is powerful and doesn't need him to be protective.

it really gives the fact that he projected his insecurities and blamed his failure on her. Then all writers started to follow this dumb idea.
Then they put a woman that would do anything he asked on jean's place

No way Jean was the weakest with Angel on the team, they have to be kidding me