Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Triniking1234]

For the Scott and Jean's marriage, I think they pinned the Psylocke stuff on Revanche.
The Maddie stuff happened before X-Men v2 #30 but even when it comes up, it's pretty much written as if Jean forgives Scott.

[salarta]

Sorry, I only saw your comment now.

Back in the 70s, CC was already writing Jean as her own woman. She was certainly more conservative than Storm, for instance, but I like it because he didn't completely re-invent her. He wrote her in a way that made us feel like she was just growing up, transitioning from a shy teenager to a vibrant young woman.

I don't think Jean was ever just the girlfriend/wife, though, exactly because Scott was supportive of hers too. We do have two problems, though:

1) Female characters, in general, are given less development, regardless of being in a relationship or not.
2) Scott is more troubled than Jean, so even if we didn't have the problem in #1, it would be expected that we saw more scenes of her being supportive.

I think certain ideas about Jean are just factually untrue. It's something a writer says or some fans express in frustration and it's repeated so often it becomes the truth.

Something we mentioned recently here is this myth that Jean dresses like a soccer mom, which is an idea that started during Morrison's run and just stuck.

There's certainly mixed issues with what fans/consumers think is true about a character, versus what people working at the company that owns the character think about them, versus what is actually true and accurate. It definitely depends on the situation. I tend to gravitate toward what dedicated fans of a character say about the character over others, since dedicated fans tend to put in the analysis and critical thought needed to understand them. Whereas people that are simply fans of a particular era tend to ignore or excuse its problems, while people that really hate a particular era tend to ignore and dismiss any of its good moments and qualities. Like I would say Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns was good for Batman but treated Superman horribly, while a dedicated fan of Batman might say it's perfect and a Superman fan might say the whole thing is terrible.

I think whether past depictions of a character can be integrated into current treatment or need to be disregarded depends heavily on when, how, and how long. If it's brief and not too terrible for its time then there's less of an issue to treating it as an evolution. But if it's been going on for a longer time, over time that evolution should've happened but didn't, and it's egregiously bad, then I think it's best to set such things aside and look more closely at the core of who the character should be if evolution had taken place. Not that past events can't be used, but the way the character was depicted during those events shouldn't be duplicated or treated like they're accurate representations of the character. Just as Marvel doesn't need characters to talk about how Nick Fury was depicted as white in stories where that was the case.

Good point about how female characters tend to be given less development regardless of relationship status. I'm not sure if I said it in this thread already, but in comic book fiction I've seen, there tends to be a problem of treating women like usage and development is a limited resource that only a select few can have, while men can have a great deal more of it. I suppose it has its roots in the same problem that leads to men thinking women are talking too much in meetings if women are talking the same amount of time as men.

Claremont challenged that view of Jean when he had her reach her ultimate potential and become Phoenix. His Jean was complex, passionate, fierce, kind, sexy, independent, mischievous, caring, powerful. Then when it was time to resurrect her, some male writers (and male editors?) decided that the way to go was bring back the person Jean was before the Phoenix. Thankfully Louise Simonson took over and wrote her quite well, but the damage had been done.

I guess that is why I will always dislike even the first retcon of Phoenix. It removed so much of Jean’s development. I sincerely doubt a male character would have been brought back like that.

In this day and age, a modern vision of the X-Men universe would have been to remove all Phoenix retcons and give Jean all the power. I doubt it will happen, but I will never lose hope.

One thing I've noted before is that historically, Marvel's had an issue of treating men as powerful victims but women as powerful failures. With the men, we have Magneto as a victim in the Holocaust, and Wolverine as a victim of the Weapon X program. With women, we have Jean with Phoenix and Wanda with Decimation. Not that there aren't cases where the opposite is true (e.g. Laura Kinney's origin), but the most popularly known and discussed cases seem to have an undercurrent that men are wronged and we should sympathize with them, while women are unable to properly control their powers and are a danger to themselves and others. As I'm writing this, I'm also remembering hearing how Monica Rambeau was leading the Avengers at one point but then got depicted as incompetent to pave the way for Captain America resuming the post.

[Grinning Soul]

Intelligence briefing usually go for the president, Xavier is the closest to a president krakoa has. That is why X-force submits to him and then he can decide who to inform: Scott, quiet council...

Sure, that can be the case. But then, again, Scott isn't doing much, right? Which was the original point we were arguing, I believe.

Ok psyclocke, is a case I can dismiss. Logan harassed jean many times, I still very unconforstable with a cover of hi harassing her.

Trust me: me too. If it was up to me, Jean would be over her attraction to him already.

Maddie, Jean has her memories. Anyway I owuldn't trust a guy that just leave his family to see his GF, even if his GF is me. Jean choose very wrong.

Well... But, by this logic, any person who has done something wrong in a previously relationship is damaged goods?

Scott was going to choose her, Jean died and he felt guilty. Jean just put what should had happened.

That's how you read it. And that's okay.

But we don't know it for a fact. Jean dies before Scott can talk to any of the two women.

I *think* Jean's death and his leaving the X-Men points more strongly to the possibility that he would break up with Emma. Consider: he doesn't leave the X-men for while. He leaves for good and the world to go hell because of it. That's not just guilt. If he was in love with Emma, he'd spent some weeks away and go back. That's Scott historic modus operandi.

What we know for a fact is that he rejects Emma. The only reason he starts the relationship with her, after Jean dies, is because Jean pushes him to do so. I'm sorry, you may not like it, but those are the facts...

[Grinning Soul]

There's certainly mixed issues with what fans/consumers think is true about a character, versus what people working at the company that owns the character think about them, versus what is actually true and accurate. It definitely depends on the situation. I tend to gravitate toward what dedicated fans of a character say about the character over others, since dedicated fans tend to put in the analysis and critical thought needed to understand them. Whereas people that are simply fans of a particular era tend to ignore or excuse its problems, while people that really hate a particular era tend to ignore and dismiss any of its good moments and qualities. Like I would say Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns was good for Batman but treated Superman horribly, while a dedicated fan of Batman might say it's perfect and a Superman fan might say the whole thing is terrible.

I think whether past depictions of a character can be integrated into current treatment or need to be disregarded depends heavily on when, how, and how long. If it's brief and not too terrible for its time then there's less of an issue to treating it as an evolution. But if it's been going on for a longer time, over time that evolution should've happened but didn't, and it's egregiously bad, then I think it's best to set such things aside and look more closely at the core of who the character should be if evolution had taken place. Not that past events can't be used, but the way the character was depicted during those events shouldn't be duplicated or treated like they're accurate representations of the character. Just as Marvel doesn't need characters to talk about how Nick Fury was depicted as white in stories where that was the case.

Good point about how female characters tend to be given less development regardless of relationship status. I'm not sure if I said it in this thread already, but in comic book fiction I've seen, there tends to be a problem of treating women like usage and development is a limited resource that only a select few can have, while men can have a great deal more of it. I suppose it has its roots in the same problem that leads to men thinking women are talking too much in meetings if women are talking the same amount of time as men.

I love your post. I love talking to people who really like a character throughout their whole history and understand some parts of the character, their core, should remain fixed and others were a product of the time the character was written.

Some of those Marvel characters are 60 years old. Male characters, in particular, sometimes were written in a very sexist way and I think it's unfair to judge the character nowdays because how they were written in the 60s, for instance.

That being said, in-story character development is important, but it should be a progressive evolotution, not a sudden break, you know?

As for the treatment of female characters... well, things are getting better, I suppose. But there's still a long way to go. Lots of male writers (for all media, not just comic books) have trouble writing female characters. That's why I'd like to see more female writers writing them, you know? I think we need a better framework for those characters, something to help future writers of both genders to get those characters well, without struggling so much.

[Rang10]

It's selfish. It's extremely hurtful to Jean. It's not abusive, though.

He is actually being a victim of abuse himself. We just don't see it because, as a society, we don't take abuse seriously when the victim is a man.

Please, read this as if X was woman and Y was a man. Really imagine X is a woman and Y is a man, please. Let’s go.

…
That's not to say he didn't have his free will. But ask yourself:

a) How much of a chance he stood after she didn’t stop that intervention when he expressed he didn’t want that and he didn’t fell safe, at least, three times?

b) Was Emma trying at all to treat him when she’s clearly trying to seduce him (“I'm trying to get you in the mood, Scott”)? When she dismisses his trauma telling him: “So you were possessed for five minutes by an evil spirit.”. Or when categorises his marriage and feelings by saying things like: “She’s afraid of you”, “Are you afraid you'll blow Jean to smithereens if you tell her you don't love her anymore?”, “The perfect marriage of the world's most beloved mutant heroes has fallen into ruin”?

c) How fair it is to judge him when you consider that Emma had sequestered his mind without his consent, ignored when he expressed he didn’t want to be there, plucked his mind away while he was flying a jet (one of his favourite hobbies) and created an atmosphere of adventure and excitement, taunting him with the representation of Jean’s most corrupted and emotionally intense state, at the moment when he feels most desperate to connect with Jean, during a the time when he’s at his most corrupt, emotionally empty and feeble state?

Yes, it’s selfish. It’s really hard not to be selfish when you’re really depressed. It’s really hard to resist temptations when you’re feeling so miserable. That’s why so many people throw everything away when they start to use hard drugs…

Now, I’m not trying to bash Emma here. She was dealing with her own traumas and lashing out, reverting to some behaviours that were natural to her. But that’s a whole different discussion.

I think there was some problems with consent there. But Scott actually liked it and fell in love with Emma. he is definately the bad guy here. ANd of course Emma is not innocent either, she is a sexual predator.
He loved that a woman wanted him sexually and played along. He is the poster boy for toxic masculinity, he just thinks on himself. We saw this behavior many times

He had many chances to get out, he could had told Jean or even professor X tht he wanted it to stopped and that Emma was molesting him.
He didn't told because he liked it, he wanted to cheat on Jean. You even posted that Emma knew that he didn't loved Jean anymore.

[Micabe]

Sure, that can be the case. But then, again, Scott isn't doing much, right? Which was the original point we were arguing, I believe.



Trust me: me too. If it was up to me, Jean would be over her attraction to him already.



Well... But, by this logic, any person who has done something wrong in a previously relationship is damaged goods?



That's how you read it. And that's okay.

But we don't know it for a fact. Jean dies before Scott can talk to any of the two women.

I *think* Jean's death and his leaving the X-Men points more strongly to the possibility that he would break up with Emma. Consider: he doesn't leave the X-men for while. He leaves for good and the world to go hell because of it. That's not just guilt. If he was in love with Emma, he'd spent some weeks away and go back. That's Scott historic modus operandi.

What we know for a fact is that he rejects Emma. The only reason he starts the relationship with her, after Jean dies, is because Jean pushes him to do so. I'm sorry, you may not like it, but those are the facts...

For the longest, I hated that Jean did that... But, now that Scott is over Emma and back with his one true love I can forgive and forget.

[Grinning Soul]

I think there was some problems with consent there. But Scott actually liked it and fell in love with Emma. he is definately the bad guy here.

He did love Emma. After Jean is dead. He doesn't say a word about romantic feelings for Emma while Jean is alive. What he says relates to what Emma makes him feel. It's about him. Not her.

ANd of course Emma is not innocent either, she is a sexual predator.

She was dealing with her own issues. I don't want to bash her.

He loved that a woman wanted him sexually and played along.

He was attracted to her. Sure. She's a beautiful woman. One doesn't stop feeling attracted to other people because they are in a relationship.

But he had the chance to sleep with her in Hong Kong and he didn't. He told her: "Emma, I'm serious about the whole celibacy thing. It's Jean or nothing"

He is the poster boy for toxic masculinity, he just thinks on himself. We saw this behavior many times

You know? I honestly think it's a good thing that you don't understand how depression can trap you in a bubble of selfishness. I really hope you never get it, my friend. Seriously.

He had many chances to get out, he could had told Jean or even professor X tht he wanted it to stopped and that Emma was molesting him.

That's the nature of addiction, isn't it? It's hard to stop.

Besides, the whole reason he asked Emma for help instead of Charles or the Jean was because he was ashamed of them. He thought both of them dealt with their traumas in a much easier way than he did. He couldn't make himself talk to them. Imagine confessing an affair...

He didn't told because he liked it, he wanted to cheat on Jean.

He didn't. Each and every time the affair is depicted, he's shown feeling guilty about the bretrayal. Emma has to push him again and again.

You even posted that Emma knew that he didn't loved Jean anymore.

That's what Emma says. What Scott says is that he loves Jean and he'll always love her.

[Rang10]

Sure, that can be the case. But then, again, Scott isn't doing much, right? Which was the original point we were arguing, I believe.

I think he is doing a lot more than others characters

Trust me: me too. If it was up to me, Jean would be over her attraction to him already.

Attraction is a problem, specially when every book says tht Logan smells badly LOL
For me they arent big deal, but Jean reciprocating is creepy.

Well... But, by this logic, any person who has done something wrong in a previously relationship is damaged goods?

Well if it is abandoning the family, it totally is.

That's how you read it. And that's okay.

But we don't know it for a fact. Jean dies before Scott can talk to any of the two women.

I *think* Jean's death and his leaving the X-Men points more strongly to the possibility that he would break up with Emma. Consider: he doesn't leave the X-men for while. He leaves for good and the world to go hell because of it. That's not just guilt. If he was in love with Emma, he'd spent some weeks away and go back. That's Scott historic modus operandi.

What we know for a fact is that he rejects Emma. The only reason he starts the relationship with her, after Jean dies, is because Jean pushes him to do so. I'm sorry, you may not like it, but those are the facts...

Comics later Scott said that he was going to choose Emma and she doesn't question him. So that is true.

Also he was married, if he wanted to be with Jean he would just apologize instead of running away. There wasn't any choice to be made if he wanted to stay with Jean.

Scott was feeling guilty tht Jean died and it was only it. He was in love with Emma. The fact that hsi relationship with Emma lasted , mean that Jean didn't mind-ontrolled him into a relationship

[Grinning Soul]

For the longest, I hated that Jean did that... But, now that Scott is over Emma and back with his one true love I can forgive and forget.

I hated it too. But mostly for off-story reasons.

[Grinning Soul]

Well if it is abandoning the family, it totally is.

Look, I'm never going to defend abandoning a family. But:

1) Even thought he loved Jean, Scott tried to get back to that family.
2) Personally, I have to believe that people can be redeemed, because we all make mistakes. And yes, some of them are really big ones, but what does it mean if we can't be redeemed? Should we just give up on life if we make one of those?

More importantly, do you think Jean, of all people, would believe that?

Comics later Scott said that he was going to choose Emma and she doesn't question him. So that is true.

Do you remember which comic is that one?

Also he was married, if he wanted to be with Jean he would just apologize instead of running away.

He could. But Scott, historically, runs away when he's confused. He was confused.

There wasn't any choice to be made if he wanted to stay with Jean.

Well, there was her choice. And facing her would be very difficult for him at that moment.

Scott was feeling guilty tht Jean died and it was only it. He was in love with Emma. The fact that hsi relationship with Emma lasted , mean that Jean didn't mind-ontrolled him into a relationship

He was not in love with Emma. It's never said. He tells Emma, after Jean pushes him, he'd like to be with "someone he cares for", which makes her upset.

The relationship lasted because Emma was a good partner for him, as far as she could, at least. And he was grateful for her. Those things are enough to develop some kind of love on someone like him. It's a genuine love, even. It's just not the same kind of love he felt for Jean.

[Celestialbodies]

I feel the same.

I give Red a hard time, but its only because I wanted more from Taylor. I enjoyed Red, and have defended it in the past, but I was disappointed that we never got the showdown most of us were expecting. Jean was confident and capable, but we never got to see her really cut loose. The closet we got was with that guy in the annual who tossed a hotdog at Kurt, and I would've liked to see that energy directed at Nova herself.

Same, I thought the annual was going to be the beginning of an uninhibited Jean Grey, and while that takes nothing away from the great work Taylor did do with her. I'll say something unpopular his portrayal while highly praised amongst Jean Grey fans did nothing to adore her to other writers and creators. If anything in a lot of ways it reinforced many of the negative stereotypes surrounding her character and maybe even pushed some away from her. She lacked an edge under Taylor, which was the only thing missing in his Jean, she would have only been rivaled by Morrison's Jean if she had it imo.

I think when you're dealing with a powerful telepath who played a part in killing sixteen million people, and put your daughter in collar with a leash, then at some point, you should cut loose. But that's just me.

All of this!

[Rang10]

He did love Emma. After Jean is dead. He doesn't say a word about romantic feelings for Emma while Jean is alive. What he says relates to what Emma makes him feel. It's about him. Not her.

She was dealing with her own issues. I don't want to bash her.

Say the truth isnt bashing. People deal with their problems without abusing other people.

He was attracted to her. Sure. She's a beautiful woman. One doesn't stop feeling attracted to other people because they are in a relationship.

But he had the chance to sleep with her in Hong Kong and he didn't. He told her: "Emma, I'm serious about the whole celibacy thing. It's Jean or nothing"

We know Scott has feel motals and ethics. He just thought if it was psychic it wasn't a real affair.

You know? I honestly think it's a good thing that you don't understand how depression can trap you in a bubble of selfishness. I really hope you never get it, my friend. Seriously.

Well I have anxiety, that even do little things become hard for me do.

That's the nature of addiction, isn't it? It's hard to stop.

Besides, the whole reason he asked Emma for help instead of Charles or the Jean was because he was ashamed of them. He thought both of them dealt with their traumas in a much easier way than he did. He couldn't make himself talk to them. Imagine confessing an affair...

Im not judging it, he asked for help for a third party and that the third party wasn't fair. He still could had gone to Xavier to help him deal with Emma when he saw things were going south. But the truth is that he liked it.
what a shamew for aguy that abandoned his family a psychic affair is like a walk on the park, specially if he made himself the victim. Nobody would even doubt him.

He didn't. Each and every time the affair is depicted, he's shown feeling guilty about the bretrayal. Emma has to push him again and again.

And he still did it, not that guilty.

That's what Emma says. What Scott says is that he loves Jean and he'll always love her.

Well Scott should lock on someone, because on Phoenix endsong and many other comics Emma was the woman that he loved and the woman of his life.
And maybe that is truth, he threw everything he build with Jean out for a woman he barely knew

Same, I thought the annual was going to be the beginning of an uninhibited Jean Grey, and while that takes nothing away from the great work Taylor did do with her. I'll say something unpopular his portrayal while highly praised amongst Jean Grey fans did nothing to adore her to other writers and creators. If anything in a lot of ways it reinforced many of the negative stereotypes surrounding her character and maybe even pushed some away from her. She lacked an edge under Taylor, which was the only thing missing in his Jean, she would have only been rivaled by Morrison's Jean if she had it imo.

I saw many writers said that Taylor made the like Jean Grey, never heard the same from Morrison

[Grinning Soul]

Say the truth isnt bashing. People deal with their problems without abusing other people.

Sure, of course. But she was dealing with the trauma of surviving Genosha and trying to fit in a group of super heroes, while feeling very innadequate and very jealous of Jean. She reverted back to old habits. That doesn't excuse her actions, but I don't want to paint her a villain either.

We know Scott has feel motals and ethics. He just thought if it was psychic it wasn't a real affair.

No. That's what he tells Jean when he's caught. He's desperate, he repeats a line that Emma told him. What he tells Emma on each and every encounter is that he's cheating and he's not okay with it.

Well I have anxiety, that even do little things become hard for me do.

I'm very sorry to hear it. If you ever want to talk about it, I'm also here, okay? :)

There was a moment in my life when I was really depressed because of my health. I was young and I thought my life was over. It was really hard to push out of my personal misery bubble and try to treat people well, try to relate to what my family was feeling, etc... Really. It was a daily struggle and some days I really couldn't do it. The thing about depression is that it attacks you at that place that motivates you to do anything, it kills everything that is joyful and every thing that can replenish your strength.

So yeah, when something is offered to you that can get you out of that misery, even if only a temporary relief, even if it's detrimental in the long term, it's really hard to say no to it.

Im not judging it, he asked for help for a third party and that the third party wasn't fair. He still could had gone to Xavier to help him deal with Emma when he saw things were going south. But the truth is that he liked it.

He couldn't. He was ashamed.

And yes, he liked it: drug addicts also like their drugs.

what a shamew for aguy that abandoned his family a psychic affair is like a walk on the park, specially if he made himself the victim. Nobody would even doubt him.

I'm not sure Scott has ever made himself the victim of anything. He tends to put the blame on everything on his shoulders, actually.

Well Scott should lock on someone, because on Phoenix endsong and many other comics Emma was the woman that he loved and the woman of his life.

Some writers really tried to push it. And that's why Jean wouldn't even be mentioned when it made total sense that she would be (trust me: it infuriated me). And that's because the power of their relationship was still that strong in the X-mythos.

And even in Endsong, you can see he's not over Jean at all. The way they say goodbye, when she's wearing the White Pheonix uniform... It's sad and hopeful and heartfelt... That's true love. It's impossible for them at that moment, but it's still there.

WAnd maybe that is truth, he threw everything he build with Jean out for a woman he barely knew

Again: like an addict?

But he didn't even do that. Jean died before they could figure out what they'd do with their marriage.

[Celestialbodies]

I saw many writers said that Taylor made the like Jean Grey, never heard the same from Morrison

That might be entirely true but not very reflective of how many writers used her directly following his run, which was completely different all across the board. I've been re-reading Morrison's run recently and I genuinely understand why many didn't enjoy that run. My own personal biases aside, he introduced many themes and characterizations which weren't in line with much of what came before it. Sure he touched or revisited many of the narratives crafted by Claremont, but there was a definitive need in him to deconstruct the franchise without the wherewithal to put any of his pieces back.

That said, in all the years since his run I have yet to read a Jean nearly as complex, she had layers, and thoughts or emotions regarding the people and things in her life. She was active and a force of change both figuratively and literally she had a voice, and while the ending wasn't really in line with where he started with her. For one of the first times Jean felt like a fully developed character to me. She wasn't the young ingenue afraid of her potential, she wasn't just a love interest, she had problems and she didn't always handle them right. But I'll never forget a quote from Morrison about her, "She tries so hard to be good, that she sometimes forgets to be human". I wish more writers focused on her heroism opposed to her being very reactive in the narratives she's used.

[Grinning Soul]

That might be entirely true but not very reflective of how many writers used her directly following his run, which was completely different all across the board. I've been re-reading Morrison's run recently and I genuinely understand why many didn't enjoy that run. My own personal biases aside, he introduced many themes and characterizations which weren't in line with much of what came before it. Sure he touched or revisited many of the narratives crafted by Claremont, but there was a definitive need in him to deconstruct the franchise without the wherewithal to put any of his pieces back.

That said, in all the years since his run I have yet to read a Jean nearly as complex, she had layers, and thoughts or emotions regarding the people and things in her life. She was active and a force of change both figuratively and literally she had a voice, and while the ending wasn't really in line with where he started with her. For one of the first times Jean felt like a fully developed character to me. She wasn't the young ingenue afraid of her potential, she wasn't just a love interest, she had problems and she didn't always handle them right. But I'll never forget a quote from Morrison about her, "She tries so hard to be good, that she sometimes forgets to be human". I wish more writers focused on her heroism opposed to her being very reactive in the narratives she's used.

Morrison's Jean for me... Well, it's a mixed bag... He gets her really right on some aspects: she's very smart, very charming, very diplomatic and very resourceful.

Regardless, there is something about her that feels off to me. I try to explain this discomfort by taking the circumstances of her life at that moment (and her past experiences) into account. And it makes some sense... but it's a rational analysis. I just don't really feel it, you know?

And I think it's because we don't actually see much of what is going on in her head. So it's hard for me to see if she reads a bit colder because she's over-compensating, trying too look strong when she's feeling very weak (until the Phoenix appears again) or because... I don't know what would be the alternative, actually. Just really changing that much is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

I think it's the first case, though, considering the conversation she has with Logan at some point. But I wish Morrison would have given us more insight.