Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Rang10]

I feel basically the same. I loathe shipping, shipping wars, and the ongoing debates about love interests, cheating, OTP and all that. I guess the only way to make it all work was to just have everyone in an open relationship. Everyone wins as they all lose lol!

I want the Jean Grey character to be more than the girlfriend or wife character or to be mostly associated with a male love interest. But at the same time I don't want to hate read the X-books (been there, done that). I just want to enjoy it. So I'm always looking for things that I do enjoy and I will keep reading and collecting the X-books while I continue to find things that I like about them.

Jean is likely to get a push/more focus once she is used as a team leader for the new X-men team.

If you want jean to be more than girlgriend she has to be ALONE and not dating Cyclops.

Shipper wars will always exist

Hickman just trying to get more sales and atention, but he regressed jean.

[SiegePerilous02]

it is not a vilifying to call someone out for a problematic depiction of a character. but ok...if you feel threatened by those critical discourses and categories maybe stay out of the kitchen (e.g. the internet)? Welcome to the present, where women* and minorities have a voice. And yes, it is at times a extremely messy place. But I think this uncomfortable messiness is a good thing and we need to develop thicker skin to be able to understand how our privilegeS are shaping our understandings of this world.

Yesterday a colleague said to me in a team meeting that "I'm discriminating heterosexual people" when I spoke about heterosexism in general sense. This is exactly the problem. People just don't get what those categories really mean, banalizing these discourses as merely "identity politics", and become defensive for nothing...

But most of the criticism is aimed at Hickman because the character you want is not getting the focus you want (which isn't any individual writers responsibility- they can't cater their story to everyone) and not some serious problematic representation for the most part.

It's not coming out of an objective look at this writing, it's all coming from a place of bias.

[Soulsword323]

I feel basically the same. I loathe shipping, shipping wars, and the ongoing debates about love interests, cheating, OTP and all that. I guess the only way to make it all work was to just have everyone in an open relationship. Everyone wins as they all lose lol!

I want the Jean Grey character to be more than the girlfriend or wife character or to be mostly associated with a male love interest. But at the same time I don't want to hate read the X-books (been there, done that). I just want to enjoy it. So I'm always looking for things that I do enjoy and I will keep reading and collecting the X-books while I continue to find things that I like about them.

Jean is likely to get a push/more focus once she is used as a team leader for the new X-men team.

All of this. Particularly the bold.

[Rang10]

But most of the criticism is aimed at Hickman because the character you want is not getting the focus you want (which isn't any individual writers responsibility- they can't cater their story to everyone) and not some serious problematic representation for the most part.

It's not coming out of an objective look at this writing, it's all coming from a place of bias.

You are the only ne talking about focus, while we are talking about characteriztion

[Exodus]

But most of the criticism is aimed at Hickman because the character you want is not getting the focus you want (which isn't any individual writers responsibility- they can't cater their story to everyone) and not some serious problematic representation for the most part.

It's not coming out of an objective look at this writing, it's all coming from a place of bias.

I disagree. I think those arguments are valid. And I think it also comes from a place of bias—or lazy identification patterns—that Hickman disregards so many female characters.

[SiegePerilous02]

You are the only ne talking about focus, while we are talking about characteriztion

Deep characterization comes from increased focus. If she's not showing up that much, there isn't a chance to ruin characterization.

There have been no characterization issues the few times she's showed up. The only really bad instance is HOX #4, and even the reaction to that was way overblown IMO.

I disagree. I think those arguments are valid. And I think it also comes from a place of bias—or lazy identification patterns—that Hickman disregards so many female characters.

Who are these other female characters that he disregards? The only people saying he does to any great degree are Jean stans.

When people are complaining that Jean is a Silver Age housewife because she helped set the table in issue one with other characters (and Scott cleaned the dishes), it starts to become a farce.

[Rang10]

Deep characterization comes from increased focus. If she's not showing up that much, there isn't a chance to ruin characterization.

There have been no characterization issues the few times she's showed up. The only really bad instance is HOX #4, and even the reaction to that was way overblown IMO.

.

not true at all. People want good characterization not a character has been told "Try harder".

Jean showed up on a good number of issues

[SiegePerilous02]

not true at all. People want good characterization not a character has been told "Try harder".

Jean showed up on a good number of issues

Mostly in small action heavy cameos, which have all been serviceable. When the "to me my X-Men" moment is picked apart as being terrible, we're getting into "difficult to please" territory.

I already said I didn't love HOX #4, but I also have a reading of that scene that's different than most others in here.

[Triniking1234]

representation matters. popular culture influences how we act and behave. It is connected. Nobody says it is enough to criticize a comicbook writer online. But it is one piece of the puzzle to change something.

I wouldn't call some of the personal attacks I've seen here criticism. Fictional characters are still tools to tell a story so creators can do whatever they want with them.

[SiegePerilous02]

I wouldn't call some of the personal attacks I've seen here criticism. Fictional characters are still tools to tell a story so creators can do whatever they want with them.

I think there are instances of mistreating female characters and other marginalized groups that deserve to be called out on, within reason.

Beyond thinking the Marvel Girl costume is a really stupid choice (I hope she starts wearing her other outfits more frequently) and wishing she'd get more focus, nothing Jean related seems like a hill worth dying on at the moment. And the real reason is just that she's not the central figure of the books right now and Hickman likes Emma more. Beyond that, I don't think any solid evidence has been offered that Hickman has a well known track record of disregarding female characters. We need some specifics with Storm, Sue and Valeria Richards, Alia Gregor, Mystique, Destiny, Illyana, Monet, Black Swan....

[Havok83]

I think there are instances of mistreating female characters and other marginalized groups that deserve to be called out on, within reason.

Beyond thinking the Marvel Girl costume is a really stupid choice (I hope she starts wearing her other outfits more frequently) and wishing she'd get more focus, nothing Jean related seems like a hill worth dying on at the moment. And the real reason is just that she's not the central figure of the books right now and Hickman likes Emma more. Beyond that, I don't think any solid evidence has been offered that Hickman has a well known track record of disregarding female characters. We need some specifics with Storm, Sue and Valeria Richards, Alia Gregor, Mystique, Destiny, Illyana, Monet, Black Swan....

The gag is Hickman has used Jean more in his ongoing book than Emma

[Rang10]

The gag is Hickman has used Jean more in his ongoing book than Emma

Panel time isn't the problem

[Triniking1234]

I think there are instances of mistreating female characters and other marginalized groups that deserve to be called out on, within reason.

Beyond thinking the Marvel Girl costume is a really stupid choice (I hope she starts wearing her other outfits more frequently) and wishing she'd get more focus, nothing Jean related seems like a hill worth dying on at the moment. And the real reason is just that she's not the central figure of the books right now and Hickman likes Emma more. Beyond that, I don't think any solid evidence has been offered that Hickman has a well known track record of disregarding female characters. We need some specifics with Storm, Sue and Valeria Richards, Alia Gregor, Mystique, Destiny, Illyana, Monet, Black Swan....

Yeah. I don't disagree with that. Even in the oldies, readers and other Marvel staff disagreed with how characters like Invisible Woman, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, etc. were portrayed. Those criticisms just never devolved into unfair accusations.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

You are the only ne talking about focus, while we are talking about characteriztion

Hard this.

[SiegePerilous02]

Panel time isn't the problem

Hard this.

So if the issue is characterization, how is she supposed to get serious characterization if she has limited panel time? And the panel time is mostly plot related or action heavy, which is how Hickman is utilizing most everyone else to begin with.

It strikes me more as fan entitlement than a serious issue for the most part.