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  1. #1051
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vishop View Post
    Honestly....... Wonder Woman has consistently been like that even more so from the beginning. Wonder Woman was created more as sexual fetish disguised as Children comics. Makes me sick thinking about it
    People complaining about Taylor's Wonder Woman have nothing to do with fetish. There was fetish on marston comics, but it was just the usual crime stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Honestly, there are 100 things Hickman could have done with Jean in this era given her recent history and somehow he's ignore literally all of it. Heck, I genuinely thought during HOP/POX when it was mentioned a mutant was on the Shiar throne that maybe just maybe Hickman was going to turn the Shiar and Grey conflict on it's head and maybe have a Grey/Summer occupy the throne, so of course he instead heavy handily forces Sam and Roberto into that narrative.
    That could be a good opportunity for Jean going cosmic, where her powers could develop better.



    I don't have the interview but I can confirm whitecrown statements, I've been on this sub for a long time, and around the Fraction era there were monthly or near bi-monthly interviews in the early 10's if not a little before with the Marvel writers. In those interviews virtually EVERY writer who were asked about Jean and Scemma basically said in no uncertain terms, Jean deserved to die. Moreover how much better of a partner Emma was to Scott in every way, Jean was the girl he loved, Emma was the woman he needed, that last line was actually in a comic under Gillen.

    Finally, my favorite thing about that period was this, Matt Fraction the then writer of Uncanny X-men said, "if Scott has steak (Emma) why would he need lobster (Jean) from 2004-2012 it was not a fun time to be a Jean fan. Her return was alluded to in nearly EVERY major event only for them to say "psych" and then say Jean basically doesn't have a place in the X-men anymore.
    Really funny how Fraction did a rebranding, being all woke and feminist. If he still had a Tumblr/twitter I would love to ask about this.

    Even Gillen that write diverse books, really went for sexism against Jean Grey. It really spreads like a virus, it is sistemic


    I'm still unconvinced, nothing from them has given me he's a shipper though this could be exactly how he envisions their relationship which is sort of sad for no other reasons than he would have written Scemma SO MUCH better than what he's doing with Jott.
    .
    I'm also thinking this way. Seems to be to check a box on the storyline, nothing more.
    Last edited by Rang10; 02-23-2021 at 07:37 PM.

  2. #1052
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    People complaining about Taylor's Wonder Woman have nothing to do with fetish. There was fetish on marston comics, but it was just the usual crime stuff



    That could be a good opportunity for Jean going cosmic, where her powers could develop better.




    Really funny how Fraction did a rebranding, being all woke and feminist. If he still had a Tumblr/twitter I would love to ask about this.

    Even Gillen that write diverse books, really went for sexism against Jean Grey. It really spreads like a virus, it is sistemic



    I'm also thinking this way. Seems to be to check a box on the storyline, nothing more.

    I think this has more to do with falling in line with editorial mandates than the personal views of the writers, they need to work just like everyone else & back in the early 10’ the x-office was all about selling the scemma cool-aid, if you are a writer might as well get on board with the program or risk being left out.
    Last edited by Daedra; 02-24-2021 at 03:37 AM.
    "Can we just say that she is a chaos magic avatar and that her origin is split across the multiverse? She has no beginning, she has no end, she exists to be the improbability of the cosmos. She's neither mutant, inhuman, sorcereress or otherwise. Everything and nothing." (Anonymous)

  3. #1053
    Fantastic Member The Thunderbird's Avatar
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    This whole Scemma debacle is one of the big reasons why I'm fine with Krakoan polyamory.

  4. #1054
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    No one archived these interviews of Fraction's "Anti-Jean" comments. Well, I can't help you there.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Funnily enough, while Tom Taylor is beloved by a lot of Jean fans, some Wonder Woman fans started a thread asking if he was misogynistic due to his writing of her in the Injustice comics. It all depends on who your favorite is in the end.
    Tom Taylor has written 3 Wonder Women and he's called "misogynist" for writing the villainous one as the villain? Silly stuff.
    "Cable was right!"

  5. #1055
    Fantastic Member Exodus's Avatar
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    I really do not get why people are so absolute about these discussions? WE ARE ALL CAPABLE OF MISOGYNISTIC TENDENCIES AND BEHAVIOR if we are not actively educating us on these issues. It is structural! of course these writers are misogynistic and many depictions of women*—or a certain aspect of their writing—are problematic. Instead of getting all angry for being called out, sometimes it makes sense to stay calm, listen, and try to understand what makes certain depictions of women* problematic from a queer-feminist and/or anti-racist perspective...

    I think for example Hickman's overall style is absolutely patriarchally arrogant and clearly comes from a straight male cis perspective. That arrogance is basically the fundament of his writing and I have to confess that I enjoy him exactly for this. lol although at the same time, what he does to Jean, is really not correct and it annoys me a lot!

    In the end, Marvel as a comicbook company is extremely male and white dominated medium, isn't it? (I just realized Storm was probably never (or barely) written by a Black female writer in her entire history. That's just wrong.
    Last edited by Exodus; 02-24-2021 at 06:24 AM.

  6. #1056
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Using a creator's treatment of their fictional characters to villify them is real life just seems like nonsense and predatory.

    You really ignoring Hickman's work on White Swan, Valeria and Susan Richards, Smasher, etc. because he wrote a character you like badly?
    "Cable was right!"

  7. #1057

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    In the end, the whole superhero comic book industry is extremely male and white dominated medium, isn't it? (I just realized Storm was probably never (or barely) written by a Black female writer in her entire history. That's just wrong.
    Corrected this out for you.
    Keep Your Society. Take It With You To The Grave.

  8. #1058
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vishop View Post
    Honestly....... Wonder Woman has consistently been like that even more so from the beginning. Wonder Woman was created more as sexual fetish disguised as Children comics. Makes me sick thinking about it
    That's an oversimplification of what went into the early WW comics, and even so she's evolved past that in other runs. That doesn't excuse the entire Injustice thing and Taylor contributing to it.

    And besides, if we're being honest, the X-Men under Claremont have far kinkier stuff going on than anything from Marston's Wonder Woman and they too are aimed at all audiences, including children/teens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Tom Taylor has written 3 Wonder Women and he's called "misogynist" for writing the villainous one as the villain? Silly stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Using a creator's treatment of their fictional characters to villify them is real life just seems like nonsense and predatory.

    You really ignoring Hickman's work on White Swan, Valeria and Susan Richards, Smasher, etc. because he wrote a character you like badly?
    Yep, it's all nonsense. Taylor isn't a writer that really interests me, but I wouldn't call him a real life sexist because he handled the already shitty Wonder Woman situation badly.

    Hickman is a plot driven/high concept writer in general and probably is more comfortable writing from a male voice, but that doesn't mean his women are bad. Jean's underwhelming (but also not focused on much by him), but I feel that Storm, Mystique, Destiny (she's REALLY awesome), Orchis doctor, Sue Storm, White Swan, etc. are all solid.

  9. #1059
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    I really do not get why people are so absolute about these discussions? WE ARE ALL CAPABLE OF MISOGYNISTIC TENDENCIES AND BEHAVIOR if we are not actively educating us on these issues. It is structural! of course these writers are misogynistic and many depictions of women*—or a certain aspect of their writing—are problematic. Instead of getting all angry for being called out, sometimes it makes sense to stay calm, listen, and try to understand what makes certain depictions of women* problematic from a queer-feminist and/or anti-racist perspective...

    I think for example Hickman's overall style is absolutely patriarchally arrogant and clearly comes from a straight male cis perspective. That arrogance is basically the fundament of his writing and I have to confess that I enjoy him exactly for this. lol although at the same time, what he does to Jean, is really not correct and it annoys me a lot!

    In the end, Marvel as a comicbook company is extremely male and white dominated medium, isn't it? (I just realized Storm was probably never (or barely) written by a Black female writer in her entire history. That's just wrong.
    A-****ing-Men.

  10. #1060
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    I really do not get why people are so absolute about these discussions? WE ARE ALL CAPABLE OF MISOGYNISTIC TENDENCIES AND BEHAVIOR if we are not actively educating us on these issues. It is structural! of course these writers are misogynistic and many depictions of women*—or a certain aspect of their writing—are problematic. Instead of getting all angry for being called out, sometimes it makes sense to stay calm, listen, and try to understand what makes certain depictions of women* problematic from a queer-feminist and/or anti-racist perspective...

    I think for example Hickman's overall style is absolutely patriarchally arrogant and clearly comes from a straight male cis perspective. That arrogance is basically the fundament of his writing and I have to confess that I enjoy him exactly for this. lol although at the same time, what he does to Jean, is really not correct and it annoys me a lot!

    In the end, Marvel as a comicbook company is extremely male and white dominated medium, isn't it? (I just realized Storm was probably never (or barely) written by a Black female writer in her entire history. That's just wrong.
    Misoginy, racism are things that we are always learning about.

    Hickman was never great about female characters, he always privilegied mae characters on his narratives. I think the exception is Valeria, because she was a super genius kid.

    I cant imagine he writing something "Try harder Marvel girl" fo any male character

    Storm was written by black woman I guess, not sure if she guest stared on Shuri solo
    Last edited by Rang10; 02-24-2021 at 07:49 AM.

  11. #1061
    Fantastic Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Using a creator's treatment of their fictional characters to villify them is real life just seems like nonsense and predatory.

    You really ignoring Hickman's work on White Swan, Valeria and Susan Richards, Smasher, etc. because he wrote a character you like badly?
    it is not a vilifying to call someone out for a problematic depiction of a character. but ok...if you feel threatened by those critical discourses and categories maybe stay out of the kitchen (e.g. the internet)? Welcome to the present, where women* and minorities have a voice. And yes, it is at times a extremely messy place. But I think this uncomfortable messiness is a good thing and we need to develop thicker skin to be able to understand how our privilegeS are shaping our understandings of this world.

    Yesterday a colleague said to me in a team meeting that "I'm discriminating heterosexual people" when I spoke about heterosexism in general sense. This is exactly the problem. People just don't get what those categories really mean, banalizing these discourses as merely "identity politics", and become defensive for nothing...
    Last edited by Exodus; 02-24-2021 at 07:55 AM.

  12. #1062
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    it is not a vilifying to call someone out for a problematic depiction of a character. but ok...if you feel threatened by those critical discourses maybe stay out of the kitchen (e.g. the internet)? Welcome to the present, where women* and minorities have a voice. And yes, it is at times a messy place. But I think this uncomfortable messiness is a good thing!

    Yesterday a colleague said to me in a team meeting that "I'm discriminating heterosexual people" when I spoke about heterosexism in general. This is exactly the problem. People just don't get what those categories really mean, banalizing these discourse as merely "identity politics", and become defensive for nothing...
    Yes. Defending a fictional character that doesn't need it helps real people. /s

    And your argument with your co-worker doesn't really help.
    "Cable was right!"

  13. #1063
    Fantastic Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Yes. Defending a fictional character that doesn't need it helps real people. /s

    And your argument with your co-worker doesn't really help.
    representation matters. popular culture influences how we act and behave. It is connected. Nobody says it is enough to criticize a comicbook writer online. But it is one piece of the puzzle to change something.

  14. #1064
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    I think this has more to do with falling in line with editorial mandates than the personal views of the writers, they need to work just like everyone else & back in the early 10’ the x-office was all about selling the scemma cool-aid, if you are a writer might as well get on board with the program or risk being left out.
    There isn't problem on writing the couple, the problem is that writers feeling the need to do misogynist attacks against Jean. That is another level of awfulness

  15. #1065
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thunderbird View Post
    This whole Scemma debacle is one of the big reasons why I'm fine with Krakoan polyamory.
    I feel basically the same. I loathe shipping, shipping wars, and the ongoing debates about love interests, cheating, OTP and all that. I guess the only way to make it all work was to just have everyone in an open relationship. Everyone wins as they all lose lol!

    I want the Jean Grey character to be more than the girlfriend or wife character or to be mostly associated with a male love interest. But at the same time I don't want to hate read the X-books (been there, done that). I just want to enjoy it. So I'm always looking for things that I do enjoy and I will keep reading and collecting the X-books while I continue to find things that I like about them.

    Jean is likely to get a push/more focus once she is used as a team leader for the new X-men team.

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