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  1. #6106
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Well it is possible to appreciate what Claremont contributed to the franchise, while admitting that his work hasn't exactly aged well. Sure it was all very edgy and groundbreaking for its day, once you realize that he's basically just letting all his of own personal kinks and fetishes play out on page, all of a sudden all that stuff he did with the Claremazons seems a lot less empowering and a lot more squicky. And yeah, death of the author and all that, but really, who else could've written all that except a dirty old man lusting after his own characters? Now that writing openly about sexuality is common, Claremont's work doesn't really have the same kind of impact. And in order to try and make the same impact you'd basically have to venture into outright smut, which I'm sure exists out there but probably isn't going to be working its way back into the main Marvel line anytime soon.

  2. #6107
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    So...we completely invalidate everything he's done with and for the franchise and these characters because...his writing doesn't live up to the oversentimentalities of today's readership?

    Well...that's certainly a prerogative.

    If you are willing to discount the fact that if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have the characters nor the franchise we do today.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  3. #6108
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    …Sure it was all very edgy and groundbreaking for its day, once you realize that he's basically just letting all his of own personal kinks and fetishes play out on page, all of a sudden all that stuff he did with the Claremazons seems a lot less empowering and a lot more squicky. And yeah, death of the author and all that, but really, who else could've written all that except a dirty old man lusting after his own characters?…
    Which author doesn’t do that? Characters need to be fleshed out. You can find a part of an author’s obsessions, interests in every character. If we have been able to see Claremont’s kinks to come back again and again, it’s due to the longevity of his run.

    Confining Claremont’s writing to his kinks is unfair and his Jean Grey is one of the more three-dimensional ones.

  4. #6109
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    So you are choosing to not give any credence to what the writer says in-story? That your personal belief is the real and absolute truth? Then why should you give any credence to what he wrote entirely. You really can't pick and choose what to believe as canon especially when it's stated clearly and plainly on the page by the writer himself.
    Nowhere did I say that I am "choosing to not give any credence to what the writer" wrote. In fact, I am choosing to underscore what Claremont wrote on the page and panel I posted above. The way Jean is depicted and what she is written as thinking, along with the observation Storm makes, certainly indicate that she was traumatized. By the way, Claremont doesn't clarify what Jean's "most private fantasies - the repressed dark side of [her] soul -" refers to, so there is definitely room for interpretation. Furthermore, I certainly can interpret this story as I choose to, especially considering the fact that it has been retconned.

    Let me ask you, was part of Jean's "most private fantasies" to be a plantation and slave owner? Was it also part of her fantasies to be psychically violated on several occasions?

    While I believe that we as readers should respect what the writers write, I am also not against interpreting their work, especially when things have been left ambiguous and with room to do so. As I pointed out in my previous post, some have interpreted Logan kissing Jean without consent as abusive even when she has admitted to being attracted to Logan and liking those kisses via thought bubbles. While I can certainly see a case for considering those kisses as harassment and even a form of abuse, I certainly don't equate them with what Mesmero, Mastermind, and the White Queen were responsible for doing to Jean, which was to psychically drug, penetrate, and sexualize her.

    Since I view what the aforementioned characters did to Jean as extremely abusive, I choose to use logic and basic psychology, along with what Claremont writes both Jean and Storm thinking, to deduce that she was traumatized as a result of their actions. Furthermore, by not specifying exactly what her "desires" are, Claremont leaves room for the reader to interpret and hypothesize what those desires are. For all we know, Mastermind could have awoken in her the desire to be married, literally treated as a queen, or simply for vengeance.
    Last edited by Mercury; 08-01-2021 at 10:01 AM.

  5. #6110
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Well it is possible to appreciate what Claremont contributed to the franchise, while admitting that his work hasn't exactly aged well. Sure it was all very edgy and groundbreaking for its day, once you realize that he's basically just letting all his of own personal kinks and fetishes play out on page, all of a sudden all that stuff he did with the Claremazons seems a lot less empowering and a lot more squicky. And yeah, death of the author and all that, but really, who else could've written all that except a dirty old man lusting after his own characters? Now that writing openly about sexuality is common, Claremont's work doesn't really have the same kind of impact. And in order to try and make the same impact you'd basically have to venture into outright smut, which I'm sure exists out there but probably isn't going to be working its way back into the main Marvel line anytime soon.
    I wouldn't go as far as to blame Claremont for being "a dirty old man lusting." In fact, it could be argued that he viewed Jean's unraveling much as I do - he certainly hints at it - but, considering the time it was written, he realized he couldn't go as deeply into the abuse and trauma aspects of his own story as he'd like to. Such topics simply weren't discussed openly during that time, especially not in comic books.

  6. #6111
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    ...the oversentimentalities of today's readership?
    I'm sorry but I don't consider calling abuse what it is - ABUSE - an oversentimentality.

  7. #6112
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Fair enough.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 08-01-2021 at 10:07 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  8. #6113
    Spectacular Member Starchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Jean was never referred to as the weakest member of the X-Men until after she became Phoenix. It was in Uncanny X-Men #105 when Scott thought to himself, "My...God, Jean used to be the weakest X-Man. Now she powers up an interstellar transporter without batting an eyelash..." Ironically, it was Chris Claremont, who deserves much credit for her character development, spotlighting her capabilities, and making her central to one of the most iconic comic book storylines, that wrote this. It was the first instance in which she was referred to as "the weakest" member, which is comical if you objectively compare her abilities to the rest of the team. In fact, I would argue that she was the strongest member of the original team. The only teammate of the original five that is near her level is Iceman.
    Yes! you're right. I wasn't sure of the issue, I thought it was previous to the Phoenix but it was actually in that arc. I agree with you, Iceman was the only one who had a power level near to her own.

    It seems to be a collectively accepted opinion on the fandom that Jean used to be "weak" before the Phoenix for some reason, when she wasn't weak at all. I'm part of a Latin American comic fanpage and the other day I was talking about Jean's Omega Abilities, and many people agreed that she had a "very weak" telekinesis prior to the Phoenix, and that without the Phoenix she was, at most, an average telekinetic. I tried to convince them otherwise but I didn't have a lot of succes lmao.

  9. #6114
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Jean was a very strong telekinetic in X-Factor...without the PF.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  10. #6115
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    Yes! you're right. I wasn't sure of the issue, I thought it was previous to the Phoenix but it was actually in that arc. I agree with you, Iceman was the only one who had a power level near to her own.

    It seems to be a collectively accepted opinion on the fandom that Jean used to be "weak" before the Phoenix for some reason, when she wasn't weak at all. I'm part of a Latin American comic fanpage and the other day I was talking about Jean's Omega Abilities, and many people agreed that she had a "very weak" telekinesis prior to the Phoenix, and that without the Phoenix she was, at most, an average telekinetic. I tried to convince them otherwise but I didn't have a lot of succes lmao.
    I think this opinion regarding Jean's powers was solidified because of that horrid Fox cartoon. (Admittedly, though, I do think they did the best job at adapting the Dark Phoenix Saga, which I still enjoy.)

    Feel free to take images from this thread (link below) to substantiate your argument to those who deny that she was powerful prior to the Phoenix Force. She was an extremely adept telekinetic before the Phoenix Force was even an idea in Claremont's mind. They can't argue with history!

    https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...79233021689865

  11. #6116
    Fantastic Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Yeah, most readers I'd say aren't familiar with Jean's pre-Phoenix abilities and just assume they had to be subpar, just because Phoenix was such a huge leap. The animated series depiction certainly didn't help positively shape impressions either.

    I started collecting in the early 90s in my pre-teen and teen years. I would also buy card series, random back issues when possible, and also reprints, like Classic X-Men, and also the "X-Men The Early Years" series which went all the way back to the first issue. I had a small impression of 60s Jean from that. However in the early 2000s, I was able to get digital scans of the entire original 60s run, and the first time reading and seeing how she really was, her characterization and abilities, examples I, Mercury, and others have posted plenty of examples...she wasn't nearly the completely helpless, demure "weakling" I had assumed because of notions I had of the era, and contrasted against my then current impressions of her in the 90s. Yes, there are elements of the inescapable sexism of the time, but it wasn't her entire characterization.

    I've had a few success stories of enlightening people regarding her early years, but yeah, some refuse to go by anything other than the 90s cartoon and erroneously layer that onto comics Jean

  12. #6117
    Mighty Member Peanutsinspace's Avatar
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    Guys, what issue does Jean get her telepathy? I thought it was during the Z'Nox invasion but I'm not sure.

  13. #6118
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peanutsinspace View Post
    Guys, what issue does Jean get her telepathy? I thought it was during the Z'Nox invasion but I'm not sure.
    Jean first revealed and used her telepathic ability in Uncanny X-Men #46:


  14. #6119
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    I forgot to add, in issues #41 and #42, Jean is seen secretly training with Prof. X, in one instance working with him to psychically stop "the Oscillotron." The panels below don't specify whether she's using her telekinesis or telepathy, but only indicate that "the two psychically-powered mutants stand motionless." However, you can see that they are both projecting their mental powers together in one of the panels.


  15. #6120
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Which author doesn’t do that? Characters need to be fleshed out. You can find a part of an author’s obsessions, interests in every character. If we have been able to see Claremont’s kinks to come back again and again, it’s due to the longevity of his run.

    Confining Claremont’s writing to his kinks is unfair and his Jean Grey is one of the more three-dimensional ones.
    I'm obviously generalizing a bit, but a big reason why his take on Jean is relatively subdued is that he was still basically unknown at the time and felt more compelled to stick to the conventions of the genre. As he started making a name for himself he became more and more audacious with his writing, which gave us some great stories to be sure, but taken to its logical extreme you end up with something like that X-Women one-shot he did with Milo Manara a while back.

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