Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Grinning Soul]

Loved this series when it first came out, however upon re-watching this series, WATX the animated series, and that X-men Legacy game are all the epitome of how Jean was viewed during this era. A tragic figure, incapable of handling her overwhelming abilities acting as a cautionary tale for all the other X-men. Jean deserves better than, the stories she was given she barely had a voice in her own tragedy.

I was so hyped when this anime came out and very disappointed when I finished watching it. For everything else you said, though:

[Celestialbodies]

I was so hyped when this anime came out and very disappointed when I finished watching it. For everything else you said, though:

The pain of being a Jean fan, we went so long without her I know I was personally willing to accept ANYTHING with her appearing. However, looking back the sheer amount of disrespect leveled towards her is insane. The first several minutes was more interesting than anything else than occurred during that series, yet the decision was made to kill her off unceremoniously.

[Grinning Soul]

The pain of being a Jean fan, we went so long without her I know I was personally willing to accept ANYTHING with her appearing. However, looking back the sheer amount of disrespect leveled towards her is insane. The first several minutes was more interesting than anything else than occurred during that series, yet the decision was made to kill her off unceremoniously.

I think many fans still feel this way to this day, actually. At least, I like to believe it's the case.

[Mercury]

I'm curious to know, and I direct the following question to all of you: Why do you think writers have tended to undermine Jean's role, development, and capabilities so often?

I have a theory that her power set, especially since the emergence of her telepathic abilities a few years into the original run, has always posed a challenge to writers who didn't or don't want to make her equal or superior to Xavier. Granted, she has already been established as the superior telepath, and her formidable telekinetic abilities certainly give her even more of a leg up over Xavier. Still, I think writers tend to reign her in to downplay this. Additionally, I wonder how many writers have subdued her capabilities and power displays so that she won't overshadow Scott. As I've stated before, it is clear to me that she is the most powerful of the original five members, though Iceman's abilities certainly come close to reaching the vastness and versatility of Jean's powers.

Anyway, I'm just curious to read what others think outside of, "They don't like her!"

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I'm curious to know, and I direct the following question to all of you: Why do you think writers have tended to undermine Jean's role, development, and capabilities so often?

I have a theory that her power set, especially since the emergence of her telepathic abilities a few years into the original run, has always posed a challenge to writers who didn't or don't want to make her equal or superior to Xavier. Granted, she has already been established as the superior telepath, and her formidable telekinetic abilities certainly give her even more of a leg up over Xavier. Still, I think writers tend to reign her in to downplay this. Additionally, I wonder how many writers have subdued her capabilities and power displays so that she won't overshadow Scott. As I've stated before, it is clear to me that she is the most powerful of the original five members, though Iceman's abilities certainly come close to reaching the vastness and versatility of Jean's powers.

Anyway, I'm just curious to read what others think outside of, "They don't like her!"

Many see her as solely an accessory to create crying opportunities for the franchise's "main character".

She's like the weakest version of a Lois Lane/MaryJane, but instead of needing to be saved, she just dies so the main character can cry about it.

Then in spare moments when she is alive, she is still mainly just a love interest and doesn't need to be capable in her own right. Outside of that, she literally doesn't exist because they kill her off when they want a different character to be the main character's love interest.

[PyroFN]

I'm curious to know, and I direct the following question to all of you: Why do you think writers have tended to undermine Jean's role, development, and capabilities so often?

I have a theory that her power set, especially since the emergence of her telepathic abilities a few years into the original run, has always posed a challenge to writers who didn't or don't want to make her equal or superior to Xavier. Granted, she has already been established as the superior telepath, and her formidable telekinetic abilities certainly give her even more of a leg up over Xavier. Still, I think writers tend to reign her in to downplay this. Additionally, I wonder how many writers have subdued her capabilities and power displays so that she won't overshadow Scott. As I've stated before, it is clear to me that she is the most powerful of the original five members, though Iceman's abilities certainly come close to reaching the vastness and versatility of Jean's powers.

Anyway, I'm just curious to read what others think outside of, "They don't like her!"

Purely in a super-power based sense? Well, it’s a simple thing. It doesn’t fit what the writer wants to tell for their story. If a writer wants to raise the tension a certain way, they either nerf characters, have them not involved, or just out doing something else.

Now, take IvX for instance. Teen Jean kept Karnak in a psychic looping prison. That is good, but the writers wrote themselves into a corner where the Inhumans were trapped in Limbo and couldn’t find a way out of their situation. So, they had Karnak break out of the illusion and Jean completely forget she had her telekinesis to immobilize him or shield herself from a rock he hit her with.

Because Karnak was supposed to escape from a telepath, the writer focused on him taking her out as a telepath before she could trap him again. This is why I personally prefer a writer tells their story about their favorites without shoe-horning what others want them put. It’s different if they are open to it or want to put it in, but if it goes against what they are trying to write, they will end up ruining the character to fit their story.

As for the Omega thing, this also falls back to writers telling the story they want to tell. Granted, Jean still is as powerful as she has ever been, but Hickman mentioned their being way too many over baked characters when talking about Omega’s. Thus, it tells me they don’t want a character solo’ing a high-stakes story. So, in the end, it just falls on whether the writer wants to tell a story about Jean (or a story Jean is involved in) or not.

There is also some scenarios where they magnify their favorite character. Things like Wolverine being shielded from Jean, despite her and many telepaths affecting him before. It just depends on the writer’s preference and goal, basically.

[Mercury]

Claiming Jean can't penetrate the minds of characters like Logan and Deadpool sort of becomes ridiculous when she can raid the mind of an ancient symbiote god, lol.

[Phoenixx9]

I'm curious to know, and I direct the following question to all of you: Why do you think writers have tended to undermine Jean's role, development, and capabilities so often?

I have a theory that her power set, especially since the emergence of her telepathic abilities a few years into the original run, has always posed a challenge to writers who didn't or don't want to make her equal or superior to Xavier. Granted, she has already been established as the superior telepath, and her formidable telekinetic abilities certainly give her even more of a leg up over Xavier. Still, I think writers tend to reign her in to downplay this. Additionally, I wonder how many writers have subdued her capabilities and power displays so that she won't overshadow Scott. As I've stated before, it is clear to me that she is the most powerful of the original five members, though Iceman's abilities certainly come close to reaching the vastness and versatility of Jean's powers.

Anyway, I'm just curious to read what others think outside of, "They don't like her!"

Claiming Jean can't penetrate the minds of characters like Logan and Deadpool sort of becomes ridiculous when she can raid the mind of an ancient symbiote god, lol.

And.....Marvel had no trouble coming up with Emma Frost, and right from her intro as part of the Hellfire Club, while minimally under Xavier, they did tout Emma as being able to at least take him on if not win. Remember Emma and her goons did capture Xavier off panel during the DP saga. And in the animated series, Emma and her machine blocked Xavier's TP probes to find the X-Men, even with him using Cerebro. While there was n Club comment that even she could not ward off Xavier forever, Emma did do it in that moment.

So why make Jean Grey, an already established character with lots of battle and powers experience and someone with 15 years exposure over Emma, so weak?

Also, fans of other characters, like to state that their character's powers can stop TP, even from Jean. Well I say "Bah, Jean can read anyone's mind!"

[Devaishwarya]

Psi-blockers in helmets and natural protection (like Storm's) to defend against intrusive telepathy aside...it was established that Xavier's students do undergo defensive psi-blocking exercises. So most X-Men should have some measure of protection depending on the strength of the invasive attacker.

[Mercury]

Psi-blockers in helmets and natural protection (like Storm's) to defend against intrusive telepathy aside...it was established that Xavier's students do undergo defensive psi-blocking exercises. So most X-Men should have some measure of protection depending on the strength of the invasive attacker.

I’m sorry, but if an ancient god can’t shield itself from Jean’s telepathy, no one beneath it should be able to either.

EDIT: For the record, if Jean cranks up her telepathy to 10+, I don’t think anyone would be able to shield themselves from her.

[Soulsword323]

For me, I think a lot of it has to do with how writers see Jean's personality. She's a character that has a lot of compassion and empathy at her core, and I don't think people always associate that with being "strong" in the traditional sense. It's not a problem every writer has, but I think a lot of people tend to pigeonhole her in a more support capacity because of her persona, and that leads to Jean often not fully utilizing the potential she has.

You can have a lot of empathy, and be kind, and still be powerful and kick ass. I think people struggle with that. That's just my opinion though.

[Phoenixx9]

Natural protection and defensive psi-blocking exercises taught the X-Men were not to block strong telepaths like Xavier, but much weaker probes from enemies.

Jean could get through them and so could Xavier.

[dirtynun]

I’m sorry, but if an ancient god can’t shield itself from Jean’s telepathy, no one beneath it should be able to either.

EDIT: For the record, if Jean cranks up her telepathy to 10+, I don’t think anyone would be able to shield themselves from her.

First and foremost I want to ask a question was there any indication throughout the whole king of black story that knull was immune or at least highly resistant to telepathy. I am actually very curious about this.

[Starchilde]

I'm curious to know, and I direct the following question to all of you: Why do you think writers have tended to undermine Jean's role, development, and capabilities so often?

I have a theory that her power set, especially since the emergence of her telepathic abilities a few years into the original run, has always posed a challenge to writers who didn't or don't want to make her equal or superior to Xavier. Granted, she has already been established as the superior telepath, and her formidable telekinetic abilities certainly give her even more of a leg up over Xavier. Still, I think writers tend to reign her in to downplay this. Additionally, I wonder how many writers have subdued her capabilities and power displays so that she won't overshadow Scott. As I've stated before, it is clear to me that she is the most powerful of the original five members, though Iceman's abilities certainly come close to reaching the vastness and versatility of Jean's powers.

Anyway, I'm just curious to read what others think outside of, "They don't like her!"

In terms of powers, I think it's purely for the plot the writer wants to tell. For example, in the last Cable issue, Jean and Esme worked together in something that Jean could easily do alone. I think the intention was to show team-work, and Jean helping Esme in an emotional moment. Sometimes it's done with respect, like Duggan did in that issue, but in other occasions it's done with a tone that seems like a joke, and to show her as "weaker". Like, "I dunno, try harder Marvel Girl", from Hickman in HoX/PoX (I do think that Hickman is not a fan of her).

In terms of development, I don't really know, my only explanation is that the office just don't have interest on her now. It baffles me that she hasn't really talked about herself in ages. Except for some bits in X-Force, there's been almost nothing personal about her. Her cosmic connections were severed, her past is not touched, she went to help the Shi'ar without even mentioning a thing about her history with them, she doesn't even talk about her family (Rachel is just there, how can they just ignore that part of their history?), the writers insist that "things happen off-panel too" but who cares about that, we want to read it.

[Devaishwarya]

I’m sorry, but if an ancient god can’t shield itself from Jean’s telepathy, no one beneath it should be able to either.

EDIT: For the record, if Jean cranks up her telepathy to 10+, I don’t think anyone would be able to shield themselves from her.

"Some measure of protection" does not mean absolute protection.
Sure, Jean could blast through many defenses...but in the unlikely scenario where either she or her friends were possessed, why would she do so against her friends?

And...a writer can very well come up with a character who can give her a run for her money. Omega level or not, none of these characters are omnipotent.