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  1. #2161
    Spectacular Member otipep_90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Don't blame JDW; from what I've heard the call to allow Brevoort and Aaron to use the Phoenix Force came from over his head.

    The thing is that I'm not concerned about it. The Phoenix will always come back to Jean and unlike the majority of you I don't think that Jean has been used as a telephone or entirely badly in the current era, even if I wish she had more. I'm sure that we're going to get cool things from her going forward.
    Who, EIC C.B. Cebulski?
    From what I heard, Tom Brevoort has it out for the mutants, and it’s shows. He had been the Avengers editor for all the major fu*kups. HoM/Decimation, AvX, Axis, IvX, and now Aaron’s Phoenix Echo & Thor Phoenixson. Probably had a say in Franklin Richards no more mutants, and Spider-Man OMD also come to mind.

  2. #2162
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    Who, EIC C.B. Cebulski?
    From what I heard, Tom Brevoort has it out for the mutants, and it’s shows. He had been the Avengers editor for all the major fu*kups. HoM/Decimation, AvX, Axis, IvX, and now Aaron’s Phoenix Echo & Thor Phoenixson. Probably had a say in Franklin Richards no more mutants, and Spider-Man OMD also come to mind.
    You’r quite right Brevoort is/was the editor in charge of all that garbage, add to it wanda and pietro retcon into lab experiments fake mutants and the inhumans mega flop
    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  3. #2163
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    JDW is likely no better.

    He shut down Jean using her Bendis powers real quick.

    Mary Janes don't get to be powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    Be careful what you wish for she may get the Brexit Braddock treatment from excalibur
    Excuse me. I meant capable writers who happen to be female.

    I'll settle for dude writers who are interested in superheroic female perspectives.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 04-09-2021 at 05:49 PM.

  4. #2164
    Spectacular Member otipep_90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    I can say many things but they wont magically turn real, the truth is they put that line in jean’s mouth just to fool us and why should Jean renounce her name and legacy?
    What exactly is she gaining in exchange?
    How did this ransack of her imagery and history benefit her character?
    Apparently the phoenix is “sooo very bad” that all these genius writers can’t wait to have their pet characters get a piece of it.
    All the mental gymnastic required to paint this as something positive for Jean Grey is a clear indication that in truth this is nothing more than plunder of her narrative potential and iconic status.
    Imagine wanting to constantly separate tony and his amor, wolverine and his claws, not just make copies but wanting to take it all away, what is it about Jean as phoenix that disturbs these editors and writers so much?
    They fear the woman having any power of her own or being at the level of the Phoenix Force. They fear that the only Jean Grey/Phoenix story is a Dark Phoenix Saga where she goes crazy and kills herself. They don’t realize the Dark Phoenix Saga was a perfect storm situation. Jean was continuously manipulated, and raped by Mastermind/ Mesmero / HFC for over a year in 616 Marvel time, and had been isolated from her friends when she thought the X-Men had died in the Savage Land. She was not overwhelmed by power, she was groomed and abused. Most writers will not be able to move past the DPS if they don’t understand the mechanics of the overall character arc Claremont wrote. That’s why editorial agreed with Rosenberg when he equated the PF as an abusive ex-boyfriend.

    The Phoenix Force is not abusive, it is an amoral entity the requires a host to be it’s guide. When has a heroic Jean Grey/Phoenix been the center of a major storyline and triumphed? Most fans outside of comics know Jean as Phoenix and would not be interested in seeing another retreat of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Jean needs a writer that understands all of this. A writer that can push her narrative forward in a healthy and successful way with the Phoenix identity/iconography. This will give her the agency of womanhood that has been stripped in the comics by editors and writers.

    We need new stories with Jean/Phoenix that can be adapted into movies and TV. If she is not successfully written as the Phoenix, then when the PF does comeback the toxic cycle will begin anew and will probably lead to another period of death/limbo.
    Last edited by otipep_90; 04-09-2021 at 06:39 PM.

  5. #2165
    Mighty Member andreikes's Avatar
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    Even though Jean was dead, she grew the fan base ...

    If Marvel today made an x-men movie and Jean was shown to be strong, maybe there would be a change in the comics

  6. #2166
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    They fear the woman having any power of her own or being at the level of the Phoenix Force. They fear that the only Jean Grey/Phoenix story is a Dark Phoenix Saga where she goes crazy and kills herself. They don’t realize the Dark Phoenix Saga was a perfect storm situation. Jean was continuously manipulated, and raped by Mastermind/ Mesmero / HFC for over a year in 616 Marvel time, and had been isolated from her friends when she thought the X-Men had died in the Savage Land. She was not overwhelmed by power, she was groomed and abused. Most writers will not be able to move past the DPS if they don’t understand the mechanics of the overall character arc Claremont wrote. That’s why editorial agreed with Rosenberg when he equated the PF as an abusive ex-boyfriend.

    The Phoenix Force is not abusive, it is an amoral entity the requires a host to be it’s guide. When has a heroic Jean Grey/Phoenix been the center of a major storyline and triumphed? Most fans outside of comics know Jean as Phoenix and would not be interested in seeing another retreat of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Jean needs a writer that understands all of this. A writer that can push her narrative forward in a healthy and successful way with the Phoenix identity/iconography. This will give her the agency of womanhood that has been stripped in the comics by editors and writers.

    We need new stories with Jean/Phoenix that can be adapted into movies and TV. If she is not successfully written as the Phoenix, then when the PF does comeback the toxic cycle will begin anew and will probably lead to another period of death/limbo.
    This is the most important thing about Dark Phoenix: Jean Grey was corrupted by being abused by men. It wasnt a case of women geting too powerful and losing it because they got too much power.

    I'm with you that writers need to understand what really went on DPS to get the character and move on on her story.
    I feel like the story needs closure, a conclusion. The story is not complete.

    I think she is owed to be written wll as Phoenix after all those years dead

    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    Who, EIC C.B. Cebulski?
    From what I heard, Tom Brevoort has it out for the mutants, and it’s shows. He had been the Avengers editor for all the major fu*kups. HoM/Decimation, AvX, Axis, IvX, and now Aaron’s Phoenix Echo & Thor Phoenixson. Probably had a say in Franklin Richards no more mutants, and Spider-Man OMD also come to mind.
    Cebulski is the EIC, he seems to like mutants. I think brevoort doesn't care for mutants, he even said that he stopped reading x-men really long time ago
    Last edited by Rang10; 04-09-2021 at 07:43 PM.

  7. #2167
    Astonishing Member darewithpeace's Avatar
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    any good issue with jean on it after x of swords? god im so lost with the x-titles
    we can be heroes, just for one day

  8. #2168
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    Quote Originally Posted by darewithpeace View Post
    any good issue with jean on it after x of swords? god im so lost with the x-titles
    After X of Swords? I don't think so. But she's had a couple of good X-Force issues scattered in the run.

  9. #2169
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    I feel like the story needs closure, a conclusion. The story is not complete.
    Complete or not, it’s an old story, now. Should authors be still obsessed by it? It’s like with Rachel and her Hound costume.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  10. #2170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Complete or not, it’s an old story, now. Should authors be still obsessed by it? It’s like with Rachel and her Hound costume.
    Yeah Jean doesn't need or deserve her iconography.

    The only thing authors should worry about is that she yells "SCOTT" in every issue.

    I also hate how authors obsess over Thor being a thunder god asgardian.

  11. #2171
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    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    They fear the woman having any power of her own or being at the level of the Phoenix Force. They fear that the only Jean Grey/Phoenix story is a Dark Phoenix Saga where she goes crazy and kills herself. They don’t realize the Dark Phoenix Saga was a perfect storm situation. Jean was continuously manipulated, and raped by Mastermind/ Mesmero / HFC for over a year in 616 Marvel time, and had been isolated from her friends when she thought the X-Men had died in the Savage Land. She was not overwhelmed by power, she was groomed and abused. Most writers will not be able to move past the DPS if they don’t understand the mechanics of the overall character arc Claremont wrote. That’s why editorial agreed with Rosenberg when he equated the PF as an abusive ex-boyfriend.

    The Phoenix Force is not abusive, it is an amoral entity the requires a host to be it’s guide. When has a heroic Jean Grey/Phoenix been the center of a major storyline and triumphed? Most fans outside of comics know Jean as Phoenix and would not be interested in seeing another retreat of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Jean needs a writer that understands all of this. A writer that can push her narrative forward in a healthy and successful way with the Phoenix identity/iconography. This will give her the agency of womanhood that has been stripped in the comics by editors and writers.

    We need new stories with Jean/Phoenix that can be adapted into movies and TV. If she is not successfully written as the Phoenix, then when the PF does comeback the toxic cycle will begin anew and will probably lead to another period of death/limbo.
    very well said Otipep, incidentally your post made think about the fact that my favorite moments with Jean as phoenix are stories not specifically centered about her being Phoenix, I just love it when it is treated like an ordinary fact and not as an heralding sign of the "end of days".
    Ommadon: “By summoning all the dark powers I will infest the spirit of man So that he uses his science and logic to destroy himself. Greed and avarice shall prevail, and those who do not hear my words shall pay the price. I'll teach man to use his machines, I'll show him what distorted science can give birth to. I'll teach him to fly like a fairy, and I'll give him the ultimate answer to all his science can ask. And the world will be free for my magic again.”

  12. #2172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    Be careful what you wish for she may get the Brexit Braddock treatment from excalibur
    This is the best writing Elizabeth Braddock has gotten in years. And yes, the Captain Britain corps are based around Elizabeth. She´s Krakoa and Earth´s representative to Otherworld and Saturnyne-

    Elizabeth is starring in a book. Jean is a psychic telephone and cook.

  13. #2173
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    I think the X-Men need to replace their editorial staff with professional editors who can operate within the times. Not old fan boys who are stuck in the 1970s. It´s terrible to say this, but Claremont´s comics written 40 years ago were more progressive.

    It was Jordan White who approved the Jean coming back, but not being Phoenix, and Jeen being sent back to the past so adult Jean could be just Marvel Girl.

  14. #2174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    This is the most important thing about Dark Phoenix: Jean Grey was corrupted by being abused by men. It wasnt a case of women geting too powerful and losing it because they got too much power.

    I'm with you that writers need to understand what really went on DPS to get the character and move on on her story.
    I feel like the story needs closure, a conclusion. The story is not complete.

    I think she is owed to be written wll as Phoenix after all those years dead



    Cebulski is the EIC, he seems to like mutants. I think brevoort doesn't care for mutants, he even said that he stopped reading x-men really long time ago
    Dark Phoenix the movie suffered from poor writing, poor directing, and honestly most parts I think were miscast. That and Fox wasn´t able to market well due to impending merger.

    However, it did show a powerful Jean struggle with mental illness and who overcame her darker tendencies to save the X-Men and she did not die.

    People like Jordan D. White were fans of the day when Marvel used to promote just certain male characters like SpiderMan, Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Wolverine. Female characters were often fridged or sidelined.

  15. #2175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Yeah Jean doesn't need or deserve her iconography.

    The only thing authors should worry about is that she yells "SCOTT" in every issue.

    I also hate how authors obsess over Thor being a thunder god asgardian.
    Jean will get her iconic imagery back. Toxic masculinity in the industry is being dealt with now. Joss Whedon is just but the latest on that front. Look at the MCU, it´s becoming increasingly diverse not just in front of the camera but in terms of writers, editors, and other behind the scenes people.

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