Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[salarta]

I agree that Jean being referred to as Marvel Girl is very odd and problematic. There's a reason Marvel felt the need to change Invisible Girl to Invisible Woman, and Miss Marvel to Captain Marvel. Same should really apply here. The girl aspect only makes sense to me if it's being applied to a teenage version of her running around while her adult self is simultaneously active.

[Exodus]

I agree that Jean being referred to as Marvel Girl is very odd and problematic. There's a reason Marvel felt the need to change Invisible Girl to Invisible Woman, and Miss Marvel to Captain Marvel. Same should really apply here. The girl aspect only makes sense to me if it's being applied to a teenage version of her running around while her adult self is simultaneously active.

labeling yourself "girl" as a name for a person is just so bizarre...Jean is basically celebrating her cis-privilege every time she introduces herself...I hate it. it is so retrograde and ridiculous.

I just watched Justice League and the only woman of the cast is LITERALLY called "woman". That's so dumb. sorry, those superhero names do not working for me...

[Vishop]

I just watched Justice League and the only woman of the cast is LITERALLY called "woman". That's so dumb. sorry, those superhero names do not working for me...

Its not dumb to say Wonder Woman, Super "MAN", Aqua "MAN", Bat "MAN" in a team. This same group of people has some of the best storylines with Geoff Jones or Morrison in modern comics. And they all literally stomp current x-writers. Name or Gender usage isn't the factor here. Its how they use them matters.

[Zelena]

I agree that Jean being referred to as Marvel Girl is very odd and problematic. There's a reason Marvel felt the need to change Invisible Girl to Invisible Woman, and Miss Marvel to Captain Marvel. Same should really apply here. The girl aspect only makes sense to me if it's being applied to a teenage version of her running around while her adult self is simultaneously active.

The codename comes from a time when she was really a “girl”. A lifetime after… yes, it feels weird. But then, the costume also feels weird.

[Harpsikord]

I still don't think the 'girl' of it all has to be problematic. It's a misogynistic narrative to say that if you refer to someone as a girl they have to be inherently lesser; again I'll point back to the argument Cat Grant made in the first episode of Supergirl, and then at the fact that the CW show hasn't treated Supergirl as lesser than Superman even once in the entirety of the show's tenure. It just... hasn't been a problem. At all. So I don't think that it should be for Jean and if she wants to go by Marvel Girl then that's her choice and prerogative.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

"Marvel Girl" is regressive. And meant to be so.

[Harpsikord]

"Marvel Girl" is regressive. And meant to be so.

I'm not arguing that Phoenix isn't better, mind. But I don't know if I agree that Marvel Girl is 'regressive.' Whenever she's not been Phoenix she's been Marvel Girl, which includes large swaths of time when she was an adult.

And ultimately just because she more often went by 'Jean Grey' doesn't mean that she wasn't still Marvel Girl. She was. It's literally the same deal now.

[johnnysv75]

I still don't think the 'girl' of it all has to be problematic. It's a misogynistic narrative to say that if you refer to someone as a girl they have to be inherently lesser; again I'll point back to the argument Cat Grant made in the first episode of Supergirl, and then at the fact that the CW show hasn't treated Supergirl as lesser than Superman even once in the entirety of the show's tenure. It just... hasn't been a problem. At all. So I don't think that it should be for Jean and if she wants to go by Marvel Girl then that's her choice and prerogative.

In my mind, they had to have Cat make that speech cause they knew ”girl” was problematic. They tried to stay ahead of things. And Jean Grey is older and more mature than Kara.

Having the first X-woman call herself ”girl” just feels weird to me.

[Havok83]

In my mind, they had to have Cat make that speech cause they knew ”girl” was problematic. They tried to stay ahead of things. And Jean Grey is older and more mature than Kara.

Having the first X-woman call herself ”girl” just feels weird to me.

Also Supergirl the tv show has Kara as lead and its told entirely from her perspective. Outside of Red and her teen solo, that hasnt been the case with Jean. For the most part, she is portrayed as lesser under the Marvel Girl moniker in a way that she wasnt in the era that preceeded the current one

[Phoenixx9]

"Marvel Girl" and the Green Mini was appropriate once and had its time and place.

Now, it is time for something new in name and costume!

[Kingdom X]

I just think it's weird that they doubled down on the moniker NOW. When they don't want to use Phoenix she's often just been "Jean Grey", but in the announcement for the new book when they were listing everyone's codenames Marvel Girl just stuck out like a sore thumb. I get that she needs a mutant name but Marvel Woman seems more appropriate for her age and level of experience.

[Rang10]

In my mind, they had to have Cat make that speech cause they knew ”girl” was problematic. They tried to stay ahead of things. And Jean Grey is older and more mature than Kara.

Having the first X-woman call herself ”girl” just feels weird to me.

Yeah they knew that calling her Supergirl was BS, specially that they started the tv show when she was adult.

Jean even has a son, how the hell she is calling herself a "girl"

[johnnysv75]

I loved Jeen written by Bendis. I loved how powerful and confident and passionate she was. And I loved the pink power effect.

I loved X-Men Red’s Jean, a powerful, confident leader. And I was so excited to find out just how powerful Jean would become without the fear of becoming Dark Phoenix holding her back. It felt like there was a story there.

I still hope they will explore Jean’s powers one day. Jean exploring the powers Jeen had would be a natural progress. But maybe Hickman will clean up the Phoenix mess in a year or so, when the storyline in Avengers is over, and Jean will once again pick up the mantle. I think it is high time they get rid of the retcon and go back to the basics, and have Phoenix be Jean’s ultimate potential - the way it was originally intended.

Maybe then we can say goodbye to Marvel ”Girl”.

Sidenote: does Dauterman do commissions? I would love to see his version of an adult Jean Grey with Jeen’s pink power effect.

[johnnysv75]

I have been reading John Byrne’s Fantastic Four run the past month or so. It is not without problems, but Byrne doesn’t strike me as misogynistic. He makes Sue the most powerful member during his run and she changes her name from Invisible Girl to Invisible Woman.

But Byrne has during his career had a need to try to fix things. He wanted to fix things about Donna Troy in Wonder Woman and almost ruined her completely. Maybe he felt that Phoenix was wrong for the way he pictured Jean. ”His” Jean wouldn’t become this Phoenix character. And ”his” X-Men shouldn’t have a member that was way more powerful than the rest - it had in his mind more to do with the balance on the team than the fact that a woman had become too powerful. He saw a problem and came up with ways to fix it.

Or maybe he was really misogynistic when it came to Jean, and I am too much of a fanboy to see it.

[Rang10]

I have been reading John Byrne’s Fantastic Four run the past month or so. It is not without problems, but Byrne doesn’t strike me as misogynistic. He makes Sue the most powerful member during his run and she changes her name from Invisible Girl to Invisible Woman.

But Byrne has during his career had a need to try to fix things. He wanted to fix things about Donna Troy in Wonder Woman and almost ruined her completely. Maybe he felt that Phoenix was wrong for the way he pictured Jean. ”His” Jean wouldn’t become this Phoenix character. And ”his” X-Men shouldn’t have a member that was way more powerful than the rest - it had in his mind more to do with the balance on the team than the fact that a woman had become too powerful. He saw a problem and came up with ways to fix it.

Or maybe he was really misogynistic when it came to Jean, and I am too much of a fanboy to see it.

He had Lois and Lana catfight for Superman. And his story with Scarlet Witch really screwed up the character and was the source of bendis house of M
H emay have done right by Sue Storm, , but the way he acted towards Jean and Wanda was very wrong.