Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I just want to see that spicy ghost side of Adult Jean again.

[Havok83]

Hopeless' Jeans were terrible. Irritating brat and raging b-tch. Yeah, Jean dont need to be either

[loke13]

Hopeless' Jeans were terrible. Irritating brat and raging b-tch. Yeah, Jean dont need to be either

I actually don't mind Petty Jean lol every once in awhile makes her feel more human to see her Express immature emotions the problem comes in my opinion when certain writers try to make it personality trait.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Hopeless' Jeans were terrible. Irritating brat and raging b-tch. Yeah, Jean dont need to be either

If it was a dude, we'd hear about how the ghost was "making the hard choices", "______ was right", etc.

This is part of why I said it's important for Jean to have modern writers. She get's caught in antiquated thinking. A woman is going to be angry sometimes when she is actually allowed to be a well-rounded character.

[Havok83]

If it was a dude, we'd hear about how the ghost was "making the hard choices", "______ was right", etc.

This is part of why I said it's important for Jean to have modern writers. She get's caught in antiquated thinking. A woman is going to be angry sometimes when she is actually allowed to be a well-rounded character.

She wasnt written as a well rounded character. She was portrayed as a pest to badger an already irritating teen version of herself. Their dynamic was off putting and emphasized the worst qualities of both. Niether of his Jeans actually felt like a version of Jean whom preceded his pen

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

His Teen Jean was annoyingly bratty. Ghost Jean just didn''t have time and wasn't in the mood to coddle and cuddle. She was being hard on herself (who isn't?) and Emma, who deserved it several times over. Made total sense that she was in 100% mission mode and it was a side we don't ever see.

[Havok83]

His Teen Jean was annoyingly bratty. Ghost Jean just didn''t have time and wasn't in the mood to coddle and cuddle. She was being hard on herself (who isn't?) and Emma, who deserved it several times over. Made total sense that she was in 100% mission mode and it was a side we don't ever see.

The fact that she was even in that position to feel that way was the start of the problem. His teen Jean was insufferable and I could relate to Ghost Jean wanting to blow up at her but Im the reader. Jean should know herself better than anyone and should have known that insulting and yelling at her wasnt going to make her do what she wanted. It didnt sit well for either to be acting the way they were



When Guggenheim writes a better scene between the two Jeans, you know you arent doing things right

[Dam]

Rang10 and Grinning Soul, sorry to be in the middle of your conversation but 2 things.
1. Scott wasn't in love of Emma in that point, when he goes to the "strip club" the person he sees is Jean, not Emma. So why fantasize with Jean when he is already in love with Emma?
2. He clearly chose Emma, why? the first person he is talking after coming back it's her, in case he has chosen Jean he could just tell her that everything was done between then, but insted, he said that he needed to talk with Jean. And I am pretty sure that at that point Emma also read his mind and knew his decision.

[Dam]

She wasnt written as a well rounded character. She was portrayed as a pest to badger an already irritating teen version of herself. Their dynamic was off putting and emphasized the worst qualities of both. Niether of his Jeans actually felt like a version of Jean whom preceded his pen

Yes, for me it was like Jean lost her empathy. She was written like a character I didn't know, that's not the Jean I am used to read.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The fact that she was even in that position to feel that way was the start of the problem. His teen Jean was insufferable and I could relate to Ghost Jean wanting to blow up at her but Im the reader. Jean should know herself better than anyone and should have known that insulting and yelling at her wasnt going to make her do what she wanted. It didnt sit well for either to be acting the way they were



When Guggenheim writes a better scene between the two Jeans, you know you arent doing things right

Literally all she says here is "you're not old enough to drink".

Yay! It's *cute*.

It's nothing.


As for whether two people at different stages of their shared life would absolutely have the same thoughts and reactions, I don''t think that follows necessarily, but then again, I have never time-traveled to meet me at a different stage of life so IDK lol

Not every story, at least when a writer can take a female character seriously anyway, is going to involve the character solving the plot by being saccharine.

[Vishop]

A character with flaws and her/his demons isn't at all bad and the very reason why people have lost interest in Superman nowadays. Despite him having definitive storylines over the years, it is becoming generic now.

[Grinning Soul]

Rang10 and Grinning Soul, sorry to be in the middle of your conversation but 2 things.
1. Scott wasn't in love of Emma in that point, when he goes to the "strip club" the person he sees is Jean, not Emma. So why fantasize with Jean when he is already in love with Emma?
2. He clearly chose Emma, why? the first person he is talking after coming back it's her, in case he has chosen Jean he could just tell her that everything was done between then, but insted, he said that he needed to talk with Jean. And I am pretty sure that at that point Emma also read his mind and knew his decision.

The conversation was public. Anyone could join. Don't worry. And thanks for joining. :)

Personally, I love when people agree *and* when people disagree. For me, it’s always an opportunity to learn, to challenge me to think differently, to enrich my perspective. What I won’t engage with is when people are rude or passive aggressive. I just don’t need it. I have better things to do with my time. My time is, literally, the most precious thing I have.

(not talking about you @Rang10, I really just think we had kind of exhausted our arguments).

Replying to your points:

1. I think the scene in the strip club just shows the level of his depression. That thing I mentioned before when nothing really affects you. I think it also shows he wanted to connect with Jean, but he could clearly see that girl wasn't her. The whole affair starts from this eagerness to reconnect with his wife (that's why he asked for help) and it becomes a desperate escape from a reality that is crushing him.

But most of the affair is seen through Scott's or Emma's perspective.

This is important: the affair is *not* shown through an impartial narrator, so if you don’t consider the circumstances of the characters and you read every word literally, you’re not *really* reading it, you know?

Scott’s is a perspective of someone who is shattered, who doesn't really know who he is anymore, who questions everything in his life exactly because that's what Apocalypse attacked: the less sure Scott was of himself, his role, his job, his love, the easier he’d surrender. Apocalypse needed to break Scott so he could take over and that’s exactly what he did, even though, Scott managed to hold on long enough for Jean and Cable to rescue him.

And Emma's is the perspective of someone who is trying to break the relationship apart (at first out of emotional fragility and envy, but later because she fell in love), who is, as she admits to Logan after Jean/Phoenix goes in her mind and burns through the lies: “(...) I'm so shallow... and spiteful... and manipulative... I know because she saw right through me. She saw the truth and I had no defense... and she knows too.”



2. The first person he talks to could have been just the first person he happened to meet first. I wouldn't say the order means much, actually.

This is how it goes:

…
- Scott: Emma, I had a lot of thinking to do.. I'm an introvert. I always run away to think. I didn't expect to get as far as space, but you know what Logan's like on a boys' night out. Magneto did all this.
- Emma: They bloody shot me! And then Jean brought me back in some New Age nightmare of forgiveness... and now this!
- Scott: Look, when this is all over... I've made my decision, Emma. Between you and Jean. I...

And the Cuckoos start to talk and we don't get to see the rest.
…

I don’t think you can really determine anything based on that and it was meant this way: the words themselves are actually very impartial.

If he had decided for Jean, he’d want to talk to Emma too, I suppose, and explain why he was choosing his wife.

In fact, I could argue if he had chosen Emma, he could have told her right away. His last line could have been: “My marriage is over and I want to be with you. But first I need to talk to Jean”.

So, really: it could have been both ways. We just don’t know.

Which is why I think the fact he rejected Emma, after Jean dies, and then he goes away never to go come back is more significant. Scott has never really went away for good. So this is not just guilt or grief. It’s much deeper than that.

Now, Scott comes back and Emma goes back into her diamond form. Either because she's already suffering the loss of her daughter and/or because she doesn't want to deal with extra pain. Did she go into her diamond form exactly because of what she saw in his mind and it hurt her further? I don't know. But does it matter? Even if Emma had seen Scott's decision was Jean, after Jean's death, she'd still propose they reformed the school and become a couple. She was in love with him.

EDIT: Also, the fact she doesn't mention he had chosen her, when he rejects her, makes me think she either didn't know what he had decided or she knew he had chosen Jean.

[Gray Lensman]

The conversation was public. Anyone could join. Don't worry. And thanks for joining.

Personally, I love when people agree *and* when people disagree. For me, it’s always an opportunity to learn, to challenge me to think differently, to enrich my perspective. What I won’t engage with is when people are rude or passive aggressive. I just don’t need it. I have better things to do with my time. My time is, literally, the most precious thing I have.

(not talking about you @Rang10, I really just think we had kind of exhausted our arguments).

Replying to your points:

1. I think the scene in the strip club just shows the level of his depression. That thing I mentioned before when nothing really affects you. I think it also shows he wanted to connect with Jean, but he could clearly see that girl wasn't her. The whole affair starts from this eagerness to reconnect with his wife (that's why he asked for help) and it becomes a desperate escape from a reality that is crushing him.

But most of the affair is seen through Scott's or Emma's perspective.

This is important: the affair is *not* shown through an impartial narrator, so if you don’t consider the circumstances of the characters and you read every word literally, you’re not *really* reading it, you know?

Scott’s is a perspective of someone who is shattered, who doesn't really know who he is anymore, who questions everything in his life exactly because that's what Apocalypse attacked: the less sure Scott was of himself, his role, his job, his love, the easier he’d surrender. Apocalypse needed to break Scott so he could take over and that’s exactly what he did, even though, Scott managed to hold on long enough for Jean and Cable to rescue him.

And Emma's is the perspective of someone who is trying to break the relationship apart (at first out of emotional fragility and envy, but later because she fell in love), who is, as she admits to Logan after Jean/Phoenix goes in her mind and burns through the lies: “(...) I'm so shallow... and spiteful... and manipulative... I know because she saw right through me. She saw the truth and I had no defense... and she knows too.”



2. The first person he talks to could have been just the first person he happened to meet first. I wouldn't say the order means much, actually.

This is how it goes:

…
- Scott: Emma, I had a lot of thinking to do.. I'm an introvert. I always run away to think. I didn't expect to get as far as space, but you know what Logan's like on a boys' night out. Magneto did all this.
- Emma: They bloody shot me! And then Jean brought me back in some New Age nightmare of forgiveness... and now this!
- Scott: Look, when this is all over... I've made my decision, Emma. Between you and Jean. I...

And the Cuckoos start to talk and we don't get to see the rest.
…

I don’t think you can really determine anything based on that and it was meant this way: the words themselves are actually very impartial.

If he had decided for Jean, he’d want to talk to Emma too, I suppose, and explain why he was choosing his wife.

In fact, I could argue if he had chosen Emma, he could have told her right away. His last line could have been: “My marriage is over and I want to be with you. But first I need to talk to Jean”.

So, really: it could have been both ways. We just don’t know.

Which is why I think the fact he rejected Emma, after Jean dies, and then he goes away never to go come back is more significant. Scott has never really went away for good. So this is not just guilt or grief. It’s much deeper than that.

Now, Scott comes back and Emma goes back into her diamond form. Either because she's already suffering the loss of her daughter and/or because she doesn't want to deal with extra pain. Did she go into her diamond form exactly because of what she saw in his mind and it hurt her further? I don't know. But does it matter? Even if Emma had seen Scott's decision was Jean, after Jean's death, she'd still propose they reformed the school and become a couple. She was in love with him.

EDIT: Also, the fact she doesn't mention he had chosen her, when he rejects her, makes me think she either didn't know what he had decided or she knew he had chosen Jean.

I'll chime in with a third option - Scott was so wracked with guilt and self loathing that he chose neither, feeling that nothing was exactly what he deserved. And removing that was what Jean did from beyond the grave. She didn't have him get with Emma, but removed the cloud of self hatred he was under long enough for him to be able to go on living.

[Grinning Soul]

I'll chime in with a third option - Scott was so wracked with guilt and self loathing that he chose neither, feeling that nothing was exactly what he deserved. And removing that was what Jean did from beyond the grave. She didn't have him get with Emma, but removed the cloud of self hatred he was under long enough for him to be able to go on living.

I think it's valid. :)

This is how I see it. There's a matter of context that Morrisson never really bothered, but it should have mattered to the character.

So what came before Apocalypse's possession?

Scott and Jean go to Alaska because he was hurt. He recovers, they're thinking of selling the house, but then she loses her telepathy and they decide to stay there for a while. By the time The Twelve starts, she has her telepathy again, but they're still in Alaska. What were they doing there, then?

The very first pages of the story give us the answer: Scott is in the Danger Room in the middle of the night, thinking about how being an X-Men doesn't matter as much to him as it used to. Thinking about his wedding and a conversation he had with Jean.

--
They're sitting on the grass, looking at the horizon, holding each other and smiling.

- Scott: So why wait any longer...? Maybe we need to think about taking a break, Jean. Finding the time to talk -- away from the others -- about children...
- Jean: Just "talk"?
--

He's torn because he doesn't actually want to be back with the X-Men. He's ready to go live this dream and be in peace like Storm suggested. But the X-Men craze keeps dragging them both in and his sense of duty makes it impossible for him to walk away and be in peace.

The very same story ends with him being possessed. This is not ancient history to him. But Apocalypse does create this absolute mess in his mind and makes him question everything.

Now, after he goes away (when Jean finds out about the affair), after the possibility of losing Jean becomes very real, I find it very hard to believe he wouldn't have snapped a little out of the confusion. Rationally, at least. Emotionally, he would still be just as hurt and confused.

But I think that, if Jean had lived he would have tried to be with her. He certainly wouldn't know how and maybe they wouldn't make it. But I can't imagine he wouldn't have wanted to try.

(And based on how he reacted when he first saw teen Jean and the depictions of their ressurection stories, I think it was the case, indeed).

The point is, back in Morisson's run, Scott doesn't get the chance of saying it to Jean. And then she dies in his arms saying the most stupid things to him.

I think that - what she said - is what really breaks him. The fact she died believing that "all I ever did was die on you". Can you imagine, being Scott Summers and hearing Jean Grey tell you that? Just try...

So, then Jean pushes him and I believe the push is like: "I don't want you to waste away. Do whatever it takes. It doesn't need to be perfect. Just do it. Just star over." And since Emma is the only thing that makes him feel something other than despair, it makes sense he says "yes" to her proposal.

But of course, we don't really know what "Live" means or even what was the nature of that push. So, it's really personal opinions.

[Havok83]

Literally all she says here is "you're not old enough to drink".

Yay! It's *cute*.

It's nothing.


As for whether two people at different stages of their shared life would absolutely have the same thoughts and reactions, I don''t think that follows necessarily, but then again, I have never time-traveled to meet me at a different stage of life so IDK lol

Not every story, at least when a writer can take a female character seriously anyway, is going to involve the character solving the plot by being saccharine.

thats the point. This little scene was still better than the crap that Hopeless did which was sad

As for your second thought, Ghost Jean was literally in her head. She knew her thoughts, feelings, how she viewed things, bc she was experiencing them alongside of her.