Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Dam]

I think some people here are focusing too much on blaming Scott because sometimes Jean is poorly writing. This isn't Scott's fault.
The saddest part is that in Scott's thread some other users are blaming Jean because of Scott poor portrayed.
You cannot let the hate to some character drives your opinions. Writers are the one doing the bad job, no characters.

[Brian B]

...Jean wasn't corrupted by the power, she was corrupted by bad mutants

I don't think anything on this jean is a born leader lOL

Except if you read the books, 137 in particular, Jean says it is inevitable that the Phoenix power will corrupt her. Of course, they retconned that into a Phoenix entity, but still. And now she’s all an integrated personality and whatnot. So, the question remains. Why can the boys handle their powers without corruption, but Jean can’t?

Anyway, that was then. This is now. I don’t see Jean being corrupted anymore. She’s in charge now.

[Brian B]

I think some people here are focusing too much on blaming Scott because sometimes Jean is poorly writing. This isn't Scott's fault.
The saddest part is that in Scott's thread some other users are blaming Jean because of Scott poor portrayed.
You cannot let the hate to some character drives your opinions. Writers are the one doing the bad job, no characters.

Good point. Also, editors can be blamed for some character issues, too.

[Grinning Soul]

Except if you read the books, 137 in particular, Jean says it is inevitable that the Phoenix power will corrupt her. Of course, they retconned that into a Phoenix entity, but still. And now she’s all an integrated personality and whatnot. So, the question remains. Why can the boys handle their powers without corruption, but Jean can’t?

Anyway, that was then. This is now. I don’t see Jean being corrupted anymore. She’s in charge now.

I think that, given time, it's inevitable to any human/mutant, except, maybe, Rachel.

Rachel is the daughter of a Jean who never lost control. Meaning, that Jean conceived and gestated Rachel while merged with the Force. Who knows what kind of natural afinity/immunity it gave Rachel.

Rachel herself never held on to the full power of the Phoenix, though, because there was a fragment of it that was with Maddie and then Jean. A fragment that stayed dormant within Jean until Morrison's run.

But anyway, the fact that there is a Jean who never lost control shows you that it wasn't the Force who corrupted 616 Jean. It was those mutants. If it weren't for Emma and Mastermind, maybe 616 Jean would have still lost control eventually. It makes sense: it's just too much power and power corrupts. But, as it happened in 616, Jean lost control because her mind was tampered with.

[Vishop]

Oh, don't worry. We're not fully disagreeing and that's because I'm not sure about what the premise of the book actually is, so I don't know where this will go. And indeed, I have no idea what happens when/if Scott's duties as captain commander clash with his duty as the leader of the X-Men.

EDIT: Crazy scenario. Let's say an alien species decides to invade Earth and they strike a deal with the Quiet Council: Krakoa doesn't interfere and the aliens don't attack the islands. Under the guidance of the QC, Scott and Jean wouldn't be able to do anything. But, because the X-Men team is independent, they will take the team and help defending the humans and their society. I *think* that's the idea... But then again: how does that make them the heroes of Krakoa's people....? I really don't know.

What we are doing here are conspiracies. Conspiracies about the mystery behind what x-office is doing so far lol
It isn't like we suppose to know whats going to happen vice versa. I agree your scenario is plausible but lets just say if the X-Men did get involved to save the island. That puts the deal in jeopardy and under QC not only the members but also various team books will be at uncertainty about the situation that leads to Schism without any buildup. It will just be an event.
Either way it is inevitable for not them to involved eventually. Already happened with King in Black.

[Grinning Soul]

What we are doing here are conspiracies. Conspiracies about the mystery behind what x-office is doing so far lol

We are! :D
I don't mind that, though. I think some speculation is fun. Especially when I'm really puzzled about a certain issue. The whole idea of this new X-Men team seems weird and vague like most of Krakoa stuff. I hope we'll see more about it in the book, but if I had to bet, I'd say we won't.
Anyway, I do appreciate your input. Thanks! :)

It isn't like we suppose to know whats going to happen vice versa. I agree your scenario is plausible but lets just say if the X-Men did get involved to save the island. That puts the deal in jeopardy and under QC not only the members but also various team books will be at uncertainty about the situation that leads to Schism without any buildup. It will just be an event.
Either way it is inevitable for not them to involved eventually. Already happened with King in Black.

But in King in Black Krakoa was also in danger. I think a better case study is the story that happens in Fallen Angels, actually.

[Rang10]

We are!
I don't mind that, though. I think some speculation is fun. Especially when I'm really puzzled about a certain issue. The whole idea of this new X-Men team seems weird and vague like most of Krakoa stuff. I hope we'll see more about it in the book, but if I had to bet, I'd say we won't.
Anyway, I do appreciate your input. Thanks!



But in King in Black Krakoa was also in danger. I think a better case study is the story that happens in Fallen Angels, actually.

Fallen Angels? I heard Hickman didn't liked the concept "skeptical heroes of Krakoan way of life that want to protect the world" so it was cancelled after the Writer got out to write movies.

Except if you read the books, 137 in particular, Jean says it is inevitable that the Phoenix power will corrupt her. Of course, they retconned that into a Phoenix entity, but still. And now she’s all an integrated personality and whatnot. So, the question remains. Why can the boys handle their powers without corruption, but Jean can’t?

Anyway, that was then. This is now. I don’t see Jean being corrupted anymore. She’s in charge now.

I call BS on that. She just lost control via external interference. The motto of Dark Phoenix isn't about power corruption, but people corrupting other people and its dire consequences.

Hickman's Jean in charge? that is like the opposite of character now

[Wiccan]

Fallen Angels? I heard Hickman didn't liked the concept "skeptical heroes of Krakoan way of life that want to protect the world" so it was cancelled after the Writer got out to write movies.



I call BS on that. She just lost control via external interference. The motto of Dark Phoenix isn't about power corruption, but people corrupting other people and its dire consequences.

Hickman's Jean in charge? that is like the opposite of character now

Lol Fallen Angels wasn't even about being skeptical of Krakoa, that was mostly a misunderstanding of the premise/solicits of the book. It was about them being angsty and feeling like they didn't fit in on a "peaceful" world.

[Phoenixx9]

I think that, given time, it's inevitable to any human/mutant, except, maybe, Rachel.

Rachel is the daughter of a Jean who never lost control. Meaning, that Jean conceived and gestated Rachel while merged with the Force. Who knows what kind of natural afinity/immunity it gave Rachel.

Rachel herself never held on to the full power of the Phoenix, though, because there was a fragment of it that was with Maddie and then Jean. A fragment that stayed dormant within Jean until Morrison's run.

But anyway, the fact that there is a Jean who never lost control shows you that it wasn't the Force who corrupted 616 Jean. It was those mutants. If it weren't for Emma and Mastermind, maybe 616 Jean would have still lost control eventually. It makes sense: it's just too much power and power corrupts. But, as it happened in 616, Jean lost control because her mind was tampered with.

Very good summation!

Just wanted to mention 3 things, one having to do with Rachel:
1) Rachel also did not have the full PF because the PF held back all the power (in addition to the other pieces you mention not going to her).

2) Jean never lost control of the PF until her mind was tampered with by Emma and Jason. That did not happen on Rachel's Earth. But this is the reason our Jean lost control. They subverted her mind and will, trapped her in illusions and made Jean question her sanity.

3) The retcon of the Phoenix being the PF in Jean's form also helps Jean out because Marvel has said that the PF-Jean entity was susceptible to mental assault/attacks, even by much weaker TPs, and this would drop her mental statistics down very low. The real Jean would not have been susceptible to these attacks and would have noticed something was going on.

[Rang10]

Lol Fallen Angels wasn't even about being skeptical of Krakoa, that was mostly a misunderstanding of the premise/solicits of the book. It was about them being angsty and feeling like they didn't fit in on a "peaceful" world.

No, i read it and they were skeptical of Krakoa, not only about the "peace' thing. Krakoa is invaded almost every week, not so "peaceful" thing

Again that is not what happened



Jean is the first to say no when Xavier offers her, the seat back. Jean is the one to explain why she chooses not to accept the seat; Scott doesnt speak for her. Scott says NOTHING about there being a rule that QC cant be X-men. We only learn about that in context to the vote as its mentioned that QC members are not eligible for election on the poster. I swear people hate Scott so much that they see whats on the page completely different than whats actually written

She still has a bit hesitation before saying No. But for some reason Scott get to keep captain Commander. She is being manipulated by him

[OmegaStorm87]

Great to see such an influx of rational opinions being posted by Jean fans. Hopefully she'll have a good showing in X-Men even if it's likely Duggan will favour Rogue (His choice) out of the female members.

[OmegaStorm87]

She still has a bit hesitation before saying No. But for some reason Scott get to keep captain Commander. She is being manipulated by him

Just....wow.

[Grinning Soul]

What’s different (and unique) about Fallen Angels story is that Krakoa and its interests are not at risk. So most mutants, including the leadership of the island, aren’t jumping to do anything about it. It’s “humans’ problems”.

I’m wondering if that’s the kind of thing that the new X-Men team will be doing, though, and why they need to be independent of the Quiet Council.

But if that’s the case… the whole thing of being “heroes of Krakoa’s people” is kinda weird… And that’s why I don’t get the premise.

Will they be sitting on their offices, waiting for some citizen to ask them to help a friend/loved one who is outside Krakoa instead?

I really don’t know…

[johnnysv75]

I'd love to see the following for Jean:
1. An exploration of Jean's powers outside of the Phoenix Force. What has she learned after she denied the force? What has she learned about herself after her Krakoan resurrection? I'm still stuck on why she choked out in space in HOX during the Mother Mold mission. M was more of a badass than Jean during that mission.
2. A solid footing for Jean. Now that she's back co-leading the X-Men, can she stay in that role? I'd like to see her as a definitive co-leader and not just support for Cyclops.
3. Some badass moments. Jean's an omega and Pepe Larraz draws incredible battle scenes, emotion and action. Let's see Jean let loose and wreck some shit when it's needed.
4. I honestly enjoyed her portrayal in X-Men red. She was compassionated, determined, had a vision and was strong. I'd like more of those qualities in the forefront for Jean in X-Men.

YES YES YES to all of this.

[Grinning Soul]

3) The retcon of the Phoenix being the PF in Jean's form also helps Jean out because Marvel has said that the PF-Jean entity was susceptible to mental assault/attacks, even by much weaker TPs, and this would drop her mental statistics down very low. The real Jean would not have been susceptible to these attacks and would have noticed something was going on.

For me it's Jean. It's always been Jean. And now it's easier to justify it: if one can accept the resurection protocols, one can accept the PF copied Jean's essence and the Jean in the cocoon is an early backup of the same person. Except, you know, it was done by the cosmic force of life/death creation/destruction, so it's *the* real deal. :)