Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Celestialbodies]

The Planet Size X-men preview looks really good. I can't wait to see what Magneto and the rest of the omega mutants are planning. I am tempering expectations and I know many of us want Jean to do something big on her own but I expect the omega mutants to do something big but it will be because they worked together... mutant synergy. We expect them to terraform a planet but that is speculation. It would be cool but what if they do something even better?

I just hope it is something interesting and cool and not too care bear stare lol

As for the Jean/Phoenix merger and the "real" Jean discussion... I too see them as the same and since the process was so similar to the resurrection protocols I think we can safely say that OG Phoenix Jean was our Jean if the current Jean is our Jean. It makes sense to me. The Jean/Phoenix merger and our Jean went back to being same character in Inferno if you ask me because that is when Jean obtained the memories and a portion of her consciousness that was in Phoenix. The Phoenix/Jean merger had all of Jean's memories, personality, and genetic material. It is very similar to the current resurrection process and the cocoon Jean was a back up especially taking into account the Classic X-men 8 backstory.

One of the main reasons the whole resurrection process never bothered me because as a Jean fan I felt like we were already used to it. Nothing controversial about it when your fav character has had many different incarnations and resurrections. ::shrug::

It was this reason I thought Jean would be more involved or intrigued by the nature of the resurrection protocols, or at the very least at some point especially two years out that someone might have brought up how similar this process is to what Jean experience. Alas I think most of the story beats that COULD be used or expanded upon especially with Jean will simply be ignored. Personally, I was hoping Hickman had this big plan and somewhere in there a small portion was devoted to Jean at this point I do not think Hickman has any major or long-lasting plans for Jean Grey.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

It was this reason I thought Jean would be more involved or intrigued by the nature of the resurrection protocols, or at the very least at some point especially two years out that someone might have brought up how similar this process is to what Jean experience. Alas I think most of the story beats that COULD be used or expanded upon especially with Jean will simply be ignored. Personally, I was hoping Hickman had this big plan and somewhere in there a small portion was devoted to Jean at this point I do not think Hickman has any major or long-lasting plans for Jean Grey.

Percy, not coincidentally the best writer we've got, did allude to this a little, little, little bit.

As for Jean being ignored...ugh...yep. Especially now since she is once again hogtied and hamstrung to the very special main focus of the X-Men whose contributions to the dream are vastly more important than any other character's. *eyeroll*

[Brian B]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean...

Adult Jean found out about the affair, adult Scott made her look into his mind to learn the truth about what happened in Hong Kong, then he leaves the mansion. He comes back right before Jean dies. She's in his arms, dying, saying stupid things and asking him to live. That's it. They never actually break up or even talk about their marriage after she finds out about the affair. They certainly didn't have time to get divorced.

This has nothing to do with their time-displaced teenage versions. I only mentioned teen Scott because he finds out that adult Scott kept all those things about adult Jean, after her death, in the bank (including a lock of her hair, which I'm assuming was the one the Red Queen stole from Logan).

I was saying that resurrected Jean was around to meet the 05, including her younger, O5 self. So, I am suggesting Jean and Scott had time then — “off screen” perhaps, ripe for a retcon — to discuss the state of their marriage. Because somewhere along the line they must’ve discussed their marriage off camera, if only to discuss living arrangements.

[Grinning Soul]

As for the Jean/Phoenix merger and the "real" Jean discussion... I too see them as the same and since the process was so similar to the resurrection protocols I think we can safely say that OG Phoenix Jean was our Jean if the current Jean is our Jean. It makes sense to me. The Jean/Phoenix merger and our Jean went back to being same character in Inferno if you ask me because that is when Jean obtained the memories and a portion of her consciousness that was in Phoenix. The Phoenix/Jean merger had all of Jean's memories, personality, and genetic material. It is very similar to the current resurrection process and the cocoon Jean was a back up especially taking into account the Classic X-men 8 backstory.

One of the main reasons the whole resurrection process never bothered me because as a Jean fan I felt like we were already used to it. Nothing controversial about it when your fav character has had many different incarnations and resurrections. ::shrug::

You know, for years, when I told people my theory, they’d say something like: “I guess… but it’s a stretch, right?”

And I’ve always thought that the PF, being a creature of passion, copying Jean’s body so it could emulate her was the stretch. For me, it seems more likely it copied Jean in her entirety because it needed the whole Jean, it had chosen Jean not only for her DNA.

And yeah, that meant, that at some point there were two Jean Greys: one unconscious, healing in the cocoon. One being the green Phoenix.

The problem is that when Jean sacrificed herself in the Moon and the Phoenix tried to return her essence/spirit/mind, the Jean that was healing in the coccon (older backup of hers) didn’t accept it because it couldn’t deal with the fact it had become a mass murderer.

And I think even after Inferno, Jean didn’t really accept it either. She didn’t really merge these two versions of herself. Think of files of a computer: she had one called "Jean", she kept one called "Madelyne" and she renamed the other "Jean" file she had downloded to "Phoenix", so those versions of herself didn't really merge. I think the beginning of this process of actual acceptance started happening during Morrison’s run and was concluded after Phoenix: Endsong, when she became the White Phoenix and her comprehension expanded to levels beyond human.

I was so hoping that we would see something about it once she was back. And I really wanted her to tell that to Scott. “Go ahead and tell me ‘I told you so’, but yeah, I finally understood what happened and yeah, it was me all along”.

Anyway, nowadays it’s easier to explain it to people, but I still think there is a fundamental difference between the resurrection protocols and the Phoenix copying Jean: the latter was performed by a cosmic force of life/death creation/destruction.

And indeed, it would have been SUPER interesting if Jean was the one looking into the resurrection protocols.

But then again, there’s so much Jean can offer because of her unique experiences and personality. I keep hoping they’ll use her in some of those many ways, but it’s like she’s drugged or something…

And, at this point, I’m kinda hoping that is the point: she’s somehow drugged, depleted or whatever. She’s just not fully there.

I was saying that resurrected Jean was around to meet the 05, including her younger, O5 self. So, I am suggesting Jean and Scott had time then — “off screen” perhaps, ripe for a retcon — to discuss the state of their marriage. Because somewhere along the line they must’ve discussed their marriage off camera, if only to discuss living arrangements.

Well, it wouldn’t make much sense for adult Jean to discuss her marriage with any of the teen versions of them. I mean, not in the way of “where do we go from here?”. Teen Scott was never married to her. At that point, he had never even kissed teen Jean yet. It would be beyond weird for adult Jean to ask him about the affair with Emma, don't you think?

When adult Jean is resurrected, adult Scott is already dead.

During her resurrection story, the Phoenix Force, trying to tempt her to accept it back, resurrects Scott. He tries to tell her he's sorry, but she doesn't let him finish. They hug, kiss and tell each other they miss and love each other. They talk very briefly. Then, when it becomes obvious that Jean won’t accept the Phoenix back, it kills Scott again.

During his resurrection story, he’s shown eager/desperate to go talk to Jean, but Kid Cable is keeping him in one of his safehouses and Scott’s only allowed to go outside at the moment Jean and the other X-Men are being taken to the Age of X-Man. So they never get to meet again at the point.

They only meet again at the very last issue of Rosenberg’s run, where they are shown being very much into each other and not interested in Emma or Logan at all. And after that, we’re already at Krakoa.

So pre-Krakoa, they never really have a chance to talk about their marriage. Really.

EDIT: Now, post-Krakoa, like everything else about this island, motivations and feelings are being kept vague. Personally, I think they're all being made to feel happy and that has its own consequences. But it's just speculation of my part.

[Exodus]

For me Morrison's retcon/use of the Phoenix cocoon/egg is a clearly confirmation that Jean was reborn after she died on the moon in a Phoenix egg (and also Jean's second return gave us again a different Phoenix egg/cocoon interpretation where Jean was AGAIN reborn inside a larger Phoenix egg/sphere).

I think being an absolute copy (body and mind)—and even merging with those memories at a later point—makes the debate if Jean was only a copy during the Phoenix Saga or her real self quite pointless.

Jean = Phoenix. Phoenix always merges with a host. It never again did this "absolute copy" of a person-thing and hid a "real" body somewhere else while posing as this person. For me this was all simply a narrative coming from Jean's unconscious to cope with the fact that she has committed genocide while being manipulated by the Hellfire Club! (I'm looking at you, Emma!)

I really love the idea that Jean blocked her own powers for many years after the events of the Dark Phoenix Saga because it is her natural progression as an omega level mutant to transcend into becoming the godlike Phoenix Force-entitiy. Morrison gave us all the information we need to understand the relationship of Jean and the Phoenix.

[loke13]

I'm really excited to see what Jean brings to the table in Planet Size and X-Men it's been too long since she's been a regular on a team book. Her guest appearances in X-Force are good but not enough to scratch that itch.

Hopefully Duggan has an clear arc for her in X-Men especially since she's the team co founder.

[Grinning Soul]

For me Morrison's retcon/use of the Phoenix cocoon/egg is a clearly confirmation that Jean was reborn after she died on the moon in a Phoenix egg (and also Jean's second return gave us again a different Phoenix egg/cocoon interpretation where Jean was AGAIN reborn inside a larger Phoenix egg/sphere).

I think being an absolute copy (body and mind)—and even merging with those memories at a later point—makes the debate if Jean was only a copy during the Phoenix Saga or her real self quite pointless.

Jean = Phoenix. Phoenix always merges with a host. It never again did this "absolute copy" of a person-thing and hid a "real" body somewhere else while posing as this person. For me this was all simply a narrative coming from Jean's unconscious to cope with the fact that she has committed genocide while being manipulated by the Hellfire Club! (I'm looking at you, Emma!)

I really love the idea that Jean blocked her own powers for many years after the events of the Dark Phoenix Saga because it is her natural progression as an omega level mutant to transcend into becoming the godlike Phoenix Force-entitiy. Morrison gave us all the information we need to understand the relationship of Jean and the Phoenix.

It’s a way for seeing it and I respect it. I just don’t think the text of Morrison’s run factually supports it. Not directly, at least.

When Jean talks to Charles about the Phoenix, it seems to me they are two distinctive entities. Morrison even uses different speech bubbles throughout that period to differentiate them.

Now, on a more metaphysical way, I think that - in different level of reality, above our human understanding - Jean and Phoenix are the same. They only appear to be two because that’s how they’re projected in our reality and then, here, in this reality, they are, in fact two.

So, I think they’re one in a transcending way. But not in a natural progression of her omega level powers, you know?

Meaning that we kinda agree. But I think it’s our way of seeing it. It’s not factual.


EDIT: But anyway, Marvel has changed the Phoenix Force so much it doesn't really matter to me, personally, anymore. As it is now, I really don't want it anywhere near Jean.

[andreikes]

It’s a way for seeing it and I respect it. I just don’t think the text of Morrison’s run factually supports it. Not directly, at least.

When Jean talks to Charles about the Phoenix, it seems to me they are two distinctive entities. Morrison even uses different speech bubbles throughout that period to differentiate them.

Now, on a more metaphysical way, I think that - in different level of reality, above our human understanding - Jean and Phoenix are the same. They only appear to be two because that’s how they’re projected in our reality and then, here, in this reality, they are, in fact two.

So, I think they’re one in a transcending way. But not in a natural progression of her omega level powers, you know?

Meaning that we kinda agree. But I think it’s our way of seeing it. It’s not factual.


EDIT: But anyway, Marvel has changed the Phoenix Force so much it doesn't really matter to me, personally, anymore. As it is now, I really don't want it anywhere near Jean.

I think that too. In the future, when she enters the glowing room she continues talking to the phoenix, as if the two were different but at the same time one.

In terms of the form of different speech balloons ... This happened in the saga of the phoenix when Jean said something was a normal balloon and when the phoenix spoke it was another

[Exodus]

It’s a way for seeing it and I respect it. I just don’t think the text of Morrison’s run factually supports it. Not directly, at least.

When Jean talks to Charles about the Phoenix, it seems to me they are two distinctive entities. Morrison even uses different speech bubbles throughout that period to differentiate them.

Now, on a more metaphysical way, I think that - in different level of reality, above our human understanding - Jean and Phoenix are the same. They only appear to be two because that’s how they’re projected in our reality and then, here, in this reality, they are, in fact two.

So, I think they’re one in a transcending way. But not in a natural progression of her omega level powers, you know?

Meaning that we kinda agree. But I think it’s our way of seeing it. It’s not factual.


EDIT: But anyway, Marvel has changed the Phoenix Force so much it doesn't really matter to me, personally, anymore. As it is now, I really don't want it anywhere near Jean.

I think for me it comes down to the question what does it mean for us to transcend humanity and become a god or cosmic entity? For me it means she is becoming an abstract entity. Not a personified uberpowerful Thor-like being but something absolutely bigger than life that is BEYOND. Beyond time, beyond space, beyond a personality....just some abstract cosmic force! Everything else for me is not a process of transcending into godhood.

Jean's main character arc for me is her desire to stay human although her omega level powers would enable her to transcend her humanity and become something else. But Jean wants to stay human and constantly rejects her godhood.

My biggest problem with the Phoenix Force these days is its personification into a being that speaks, has a personality, and is capable to have petty human feelings. It's the spark of creation for christ's sake. Don't make it Jean's needy old boyfriend. lol

[Grinning Soul]

@andreikes and @exodus: we're pretty much agreeing. I just think it's fairer for us to categorise it as they way we interpret the Phoenix mythos, not the way it's canonically written.

Indeed, andreikes, from the get go CC used different speech balloons. And this, for me, was to indicate there were two different identities. But from CC's run I get this feeling that is was always supposed to be about this dichotomy: they're two, but they're one.

And the way I see it, in a plane were limitations don't exist, in a plane where there's nothing other than the very song of creation, Jean and Phoenix are one.

But in our plane of reality, their projection is of the Phoenix Force that is not and should not be (totally agree with you here, Exodus) human, and this human woman who happens to be an omega-level-mutant but wishes to remain a human because of all her ties to humanity.

Again, though, this is how I interpret. It’s not clear on anything that is cannon.

[Grinning Soul]

I'm really excited to see what Jean brings to the table in Planet Size and X-Men it's been too long since she's been a regular on a team book. Her guest appearances in X-Force are good but not enough to scratch that itch.

Hopefully Duggan has an clear arc for her in X-Men especially since she's the team co founder.

Sorry, ioke13, I didn't have time to reply to you before. I agree with you: it'll be good to see her in a more regular basis in a book. Is there something in specific you'd like to see when it comes to Jean? Even if you think we won't get it. :)

[loke13]

Sorry, ioke13, I didn't have time to reply to you before. I agree with you: it'll be good to see her in a more regular basis in a book. Is there something in specific you'd like to see when it comes to Jean? Even if you think we won't get it.

I would have to wait and see what Duggan's intentions are for this first arc before forming a more concrete idea but if he continues to write her how he did in the Cable issue I'll be pretty happy. Maybe some more creative uses for her TP to really showcase why she is an Omega in that field and definitely some TK feats I really like how Duggan writes fight scenes and with a team that consists of Cyclops, Lorna, and Rogue who are notorious powerhouses I hope we get a chance to see Jean flex that big brain of hers.

[Brian B]

Well, it wouldn’t make much sense for adult Jean to discuss her marriage with any of the teen versions of them. I mean, not in the way of “where do we go from here?”. Teen Scott was never married to her. At that point, he had never even kissed teen Jean yet. It would be beyond weird for adult Jean to ask him about the affair with Emma, don't you think?

When adult Jean is resurrected, adult Scott is already dead.

During her resurrection story, the Phoenix Force, trying to tempt her to accept it back, resurrects Scott. He tries to tell her he's sorry, but she doesn't let him finish. They hug, kiss and tell each other they miss and love each other. They talk very briefly. Then, when it becomes obvious that Jean won’t accept the Phoenix back, it kills Scott again.

During his resurrection story, he’s shown eager/desperate to go talk to Jean, but Kid Cable is keeping him in one of his safehouses and Scott’s only allowed to go outside at the moment Jean and the other X-Men are being taken to the Age of X-Man. So they never get to meet again at the point.

They only meet again at the very last issue of Rosenberg’s run, where they are shown being very much into each other and not interested in Emma or Logan at all. And after that, we’re already at Krakoa.

So pre-Krakoa, they never really have a chance to talk about their marriage. Really.

EDIT: Now, post-Krakoa, like everything else about this island, motivations and feelings are being kept vague. Personally, I think they're all being made to feel happy and that has its own consequences. But it's just speculation of my part.

I did not mean Jean talking to the younger O5. I meant adult Jean talking to adult Scott. I was thinking they were together post-Phoenix Resurrection, around the time of Extermination, but I realize from your post and glancing over previous issues they were actually never in the same room or even battlefield what with Scott in hiding with Young Cable. I’m sorry. I see they were not. So, I guess they must have spoken... between the end of Uncanny and Dawn of X?

[Rang10]

Percy, not coincidentally the best writer we've got, did allude to this a little, little, little bit.

As for Jean being ignored...ugh...yep. Especially now since she is once again hogtied and hamstrung to the very special main focus of the X-Men whose contributions to the dream are vastly more important than any other character's. *eyeroll*

When Percy alluded to this?


Jean will be supporting the x-men leader now

It was this reason I thought Jean would be more involved or intrigued by the nature of the resurrection protocols, or at the very least at some point especially two years out that someone might have brought up how similar this process is to what Jean experience. Alas I think most of the story beats that COULD be used or expanded upon especially with Jean will simply be ignored. Personally, I was hoping Hickman had this big plan and somewhere in there a small portion was devoted to Jean at this point I do not think Hickman has any major or long-lasting plans for Jean Grey.

It seems very clear that Hickman never had plans for Jean.

[Grinning Soul]

I did not mean Jean talking to the younger O5. I meant adult Jean talking to adult Scott. I was thinking they were together post-Phoenix Resurrection, around the time of Extermination, but I realize from your post and glancing over previous issues they were actually never in the same room or even battlefield what with Scott in hiding with Young Cable. I’m sorry. I see they were not. So, I guess they must have spoken... between the end of Uncanny and Dawn of X?

I guess so too. But there's just so much we don't know about Krakoa. I wouldn't risk speculating anything.

If you think of the crazy reseting involved with Moira's deaths and rebirths, I honestly don't know what is still canon and what isn't.