Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[johnnysv75]

I am so stupidly stubborn that I still refuse to acknowledge the Phoenix force. To me Jean is Phoenix and Phoenix is Jean. The Phoenix force could be the psionic remnants from Jean when she died on the moon. A cosmic version of the shadow king.

Except the Phoenix as a Cosmic Entity existed since the creation of the cosmos (or thereabouts). So....

But I get it. We do what we must to hold onto our joy and sanity during these crazy times.

At some point the psionic remnants of Jean, the so called Phoenix force, learns how to travel through time and space (maybe after having had joined with someone with these abilities), and ends up at the beginning of creation.

[Zelena]

AvX was so stupid
Everything could have been avoided if only someone had remembered Rachel's existence

Too bad nobody upvotes the humor thread anymore…

[jwatson]

Too bad nobody upvotes the humor thread anymore…

that's actually pretty funny and well drawn.

[Zelena]

So, I'm only considering the initial story here: I don't think it was a matter of Jean needing the Phoenix and the Phoenix needing her. Yes, Jean needed help surviving the radiation so she could save her friends, but after that, she just loved feeling powerful and bold and free. And the Phoenix loved Jean's human emotions and experiences. So, like I said, considering only that initial story, I think it was an irresistible attraction.

I rather like this story of a friendship between a human and a cosmic force. The Phoenix Force learned to be human and understand and connect to Jean. And the Phoenix Force gave her its strength. There’s more to say than “the Phoenix was meant to be Jean’s privilege”.

[Vishop]

It can't get any better than this...

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

It can't get any better than this...

Lovely art of the only real Phoenix!

[Rang10]

Phoenix was only meant to be a "side" X-men character, which is why she had no cover box face nor mini-write-up on the splash page. But fans went wild over Phoenix and Jean's empowerment. This was much to dismay of Byrne and Claremont who wanted Wolverine to be the (only) stand-out character. So they changed directions and added things in with Jean not being able to handle her power. Reducing her from a strong woman to a scared, unsure girl. They did not feature Phoenix much and to make her weaker, they quickly came up with Jean herself imposing strong limits to chop her powers back "to a level she could handle". And then they did the worst thing they could do: make Jean lose her mind, turn evil, kill a multitude and then die.

I appreciate your view and I know you do mine. I know the Watcher's statement means a lot to you. I always hated it. All of the wonderful qualitites Jean possesses should have easily enabled her to handle her powers. Marvel "used" the Watcher as the Watcher was popular in stories back then--and as a way of cementing their decision.

Because of the DPS and the Watcher's statement, fans of other characters (even here on CBR) will cite Jean as being weak, weak-willed, nothing special as she could not handle the Phoenix. They also mention other characters handled it as good or better.

I hate when editors use characters as mouth pieces. It is bad that marvel took DPS on the wrong way instead of the original meaning: People corrupt other people.

[Phoenixx9]

I hate when editors use characters as mouth pieces. It is bad that marvel took DPS on the wrong way instead of the original meaning: People corrupt other people.

Yes, Exactamundo!

[Grinning Soul]

Because of the DPS and the Watcher's statement, fans of other characters (even here on CBR) will cite Jean as being weak, weak-willed, nothing special as she could not handle the Phoenix. They also mention other characters handled it as good or better.

There the people who never read the stories and think they know what they’re talking about. There are the people who have read them and no matter how much you show that they’re factually wrong, they have their opinion and they hold their opinion as the truth. And on top of that, there are the echo chambers of people repeating what they heard before and accepted as the truth while being very hostile when you dare even questioning it.

You can’t change that, my friend. You can’t scream as loud as they can either. You can only state the facts and retreat. And, hopefully, someone will have given your arguments a chance, someone will actually think about them. Maybe this person wasn’t even involved in the discussion. Maybe this person might never tell you that you made them reconsider. You’ll never know. You just do it without thinking you’ll succeed, without thinking you were defeated. You just do it for as long as it makes sense to you.

Other than that, you can just enjoy whatever interpretation you have of those crazy concepts, you can enjoy how other fans see it, you can think of new stories you’d like to see. Let the haters hate. We were made for love and acceptance. :)

No it doesn't. Especially when you see the big picture behind this during 2012.

Sorry, I didn’t get what you mean, Vishop. But if you want to talk about it, I’m here! :)

[Grinning Soul]

I like to share and it's fun to do, thank you for liking it haha.

I appreciate everything creative that fans do. I appreciate the time they put on it and the love they give to their art. Seriously. Thanks for sharing! :)

Generally speaking the answer to this question is 'yes,' because I think that red clashes with her hair and that's the other color she's mainly been associated with. But there are exceptions - such as when she wears the uniform blue or black and gold, and the blue and red of the X-Men Red costume was fine (specifically because her hair was against the blue, and not the red). But green always trumps.

The reason I ask is because I think green (especially on the shade they normally colour her uniforms) is actually the worst colour for Jean because of her ruby red hair. I think the Marvel Girl and the Phoenix uniform only work when her hair is short because both of them share one characteristic: the uniform colour doesn’t touch her hair. For the green dress, her hair touches her naked neck/upper back. For the Phoenix, it touches the black part.

But think about the green X-Factor uniform. It’s the worst of them. Not only because they tried to use the O5 mask, but because her hair was in direct contact/contrast with her uniform.

Considering her pink power signature and the fact I favour her hair super long, every re-design I made for Jean were of different colours, never green or red (but blue, acqua, turquoise, salmon, peach, pink, cherry, lavender, grape, mulberry, etc…).

I think your design - considering that super cool headband - would look even better on a different colour. :)

I remember reading an interview years ago where Mike Carey stated that in his script, the baby that would eventually become Hope was actually Jean, and this is something that I don't think changed up until they were plotting and writing Second Coming. The entire time that she was growing up, young Hope was displaying purely psychic powers and not the power mimicry that Hope is known for, and then in Second Coming she takes on powers of other characters during the climax. It feels like an incredibly last minute decision.

That said, I don't think that Hope and Jean are anything alike even if she is 'is' another 'redheaded omega level mutant.' They act and present incredibly differently.

I totally believe that the intention was that Hope would be Jean. But I’m happy they changed their minds. Even though - my God - they teased Jean so much back then I wanted to scream!!!

But I didn’t want any gimmick. I used to think: “give my redhead back as she was or keep her in the stupid WHR”.

And, with time, I actually started to like Hope as a character and I didn’t want her to be re-written or somehow merged with Jean. I didn’t want Jean to have some of her personality, you know?

[Grinning Soul]

I rather like this story of a friendship between a human and a cosmic force. The Phoenix Force learned to be human and understand and connect to Jean. And the Phoenix Force gave her its strength. There’s more to say than “the Phoenix was meant to be Jean’s privilege”.

I partially agree with you. But at the same time, if other fans enjoy seeing things differently, why not, right?

As long as they don’t try to force their opinions as the absolute truth, I say let them enjoy! I find it really fun to read what they think about it, even when I disagree. It’s usually very emotional, like a part of their heart is on it. Not many characters can inspire that. Our girl can. Isn’t it beautiful? :)

I hate when editors use characters as mouth pieces. It is bad that marvel took DPS on the wrong way instead of the original meaning: People corrupt other people.

But I think that, for everyone who actually read the story, it is still the case. If some fans decide to ignore the whole emotional/sexual/psychic/corruptive influence of Mastermind’s actions, what can you do?

They’re deliberately deciding to ignore a good part of the plot and a good part of Jean’s character. Those are probably the same people who really believe that Jean is boring because she’s just a saint… *shrug*.

[Vishop]

Sorry, I didn’t get what you mean, Vishop. But if you want to talk about it, I’m here!

I don't think they would have gotten that story right for the X-Men bc the Avengers film was releasing that year and they ONLY wanted to promote the IPs they had in hand plus it was actually meant to be x-event IMO. This is a bit off topic but I hope you can get what I mean.

[Grinning Soul]

I don't think they would have gotten that story right for the X-Men bc the Avengers film was releasing that year and they ONLY wanted to promote the IPs they had in hand plus it was actually meant to be x-event IMO. This is a bit off topic but I hope you can get what I mean.

Oh, I do! And I agree. There's so much that goes on behind the curtains that end up affecting the stories. It's a shame, really, because it should be about the story first and foremost. Especially nowadays, when merchandise and the films make so much more money than the comics... The comics should be the purely artistic effort, the creative well that will keep the cycle of new stories (and profit) going... But yeah... Cooporations aren't known for seeing the big picture, are they?

And it's hard for us fans too, because it forces us to have to separate the discussion between what happens in our world (concerning the company mandates, editorial and writer's politics) and what happens in-story. And it can get so heated some times...

I try to focus on the narrative. But I must admit, it's really hard.

[Phoenixx9]

There the people who never read the stories and think they know what they’re talking about. There are the people who have read them and no matter how much you show that they’re factually wrong, they have their opinion and they hold their opinion as the truth. And on top of that, there are the echo chambers of people repeating what they heard before and accepted as the truth while being very hostile when you dare even questioning it.

You can’t change that, my friend. You can’t scream as loud as they can either. You can only state the facts and retreat. And, hopefully, someone will have given your arguments a chance, someone will actually think about them. Maybe this person wasn’t even involved in the discussion. Maybe this person might never tell you that you made them reconsider. You’ll never know. You just do it without thinking you’ll succeed, without thinking you were defeated. You just do it for as long as it makes sense to you.

Other than that, you can just enjoy whatever interpretation you have of those crazy concepts, you can enjoy how other fans see it, you can think of new stories you’d like to see. Let the haters hate. We were made for love and acceptance.

So beautifully stated! And it is how I feel as well.

Yes, we are made for love and acceptance. We are Jean Grey fans!

We are also smart. We know Jean is the greatest heroine, the greatest telepath. Jean is the Omega Omega!

[Celestialbodies]

This is still Rachel's best look.

Not while this look exists:

Heck yes they should have Lorna in the Steranko costume! Also, Cyke should go back to his costume on the cover of 39, too. And bring back the Adams’ blue or black and white Angel costume — far and away his best! The leather boots on that were kick @$$!

The thing about new costumes is they need to be better than the old ones. The new costumes are not better. Cyclops’ outfit is horrible. Enough with stripes or belts on Cyclops. Lorna’s is okay, but Steranko’s was better.

Unless they’re going to put Jean into the green Phoenix costume, then it’s best to keep her in the classic. The gold, Catwoman-style mask is great!

I'm just teasing!!


Although if any of the guys were in those uniforms I definitely think many questions would be asked or at least a in-story reason would have been given.

I think this entire crossover would have been so much better if the final reveal would have been that Hope Summers is indeed the reincarnated Jean Grey. The moment the Phoenix merges with Hope, she should have been transformed into adult Jean Grey with all her memories. Now we have another red head omega mutant that is basically a Jean Grey clone that no writer really cares about anymore...it would also have explained why the Phoenix bypasses Rachel and only wanted Hope as the new host.

Ugh, I'm re-reading Messiah Complex, I heard that the original idea was Hope to be eventually revealed as Jean and honestly til this day I think that should have been the direction they went with. Hope for better or worst is yet another woman created in Jean's absence to act as a derivative and unfortunately nothing done with her before or since has warranted her existence. Though I do think Hope has a lot of potential as character.