Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Grinning Soul]

She did, but in storylines where she had to out of honor and they would mend the rift. Since its a thread about Jean, she rejected him multiple times, and he eventually came to peace with it and stopped as a rival for her affections. He actually supported her marriage by stopping Sabretooth from interjecting and attacking. It wasn't until Morrison and the Fox movies, that the "romance" was brought back and he rejected her.

Yes. Back in the 90s, Jean and Logan had kinda of resolved their sexual tension. It was still there, but Logan had decided to back off because she clearly loved another man and he was just toturing her. That allowed them to become good friends.

Then came Morrison's run... *sigh* I'll just say this, though: I don't read it as Logan rejecting Jean per se. I read it as he, finally, doing the decent thing, understanding that Jean was at her most fragile he'd ever seen her and if he didn't walk away, it would be the equivalent of taking advantage of her.

[Grinning Soul]

now this is headcanon haha for sure writers don't see Jean Grey as superior to Wolverine. So what the characters think has no bearing

In-story, Logan keeps telling her that she's too good for him and things of that nature. He really puts her on a pedestal. That's what I mean.

What the writers think is a different story...

[Rang10]

Yes. Back in the 90s, Jean and Logan had kinda of resolved their sexual tension. It was still there, but Logan had decided to back off because she clearly loved another man and he was just toturing her. That allowed them to become good friends.

Then came Morrison's run... *sigh* I'll just say this, though: I don't read it as Logan rejecting Jean per se. I read it as he, finally, doing the decent thing, understanding that Jean was at her most fragile he'd ever seen her and if he didn't walk away, it would be the equivalent of taking advantage of her.

For Logan reject her, first she would had to make the moves, I saw nothing on page supporting it.

Logan never had any problem taking advantage of Jean, we saw many times he kissing her without her consent.

for me it is just Morrison making her look bad so he could kill her later, nothing complicated

[PlacidMule]

Then came Morrison's run... *sigh* I'll just say this, though: I don't read it as Logan rejecting Jean per se. I read it as he, finally, doing the decent thing, understanding that Jean was at her most fragile he'd ever seen her and if he didn't walk away, it would be the equivalent of taking advantage of her.

A much better explanation of the moment than mine. Agree with entire statement, including the sigh.

[Grinning Soul]

For Logan reject her, first she would had to make the moves, I saw nothing on page supporting it.

Logan never had any problem taking advantage of Jean, we saw many times he kissing her without her consent

I agree: I read that kiss as yet another one which started without her consent, considering that as she wasn't even looking at him, while talking about Scott and their marriage the whole time.

So I think it started with him kissing her and she kissing him back. And he may have realised she wasn't resisting as much as usual and maybe she wouldn't resist at all. And that made him realise it was wrong and he couldn't do that to her because she wasn't at her normal. So again: I see it as his finally doing the decent thing.

[Vishop]

Yes. Back in the 90s, Jean and Logan had kinda of resolved their sexual tension. It was still there, but Logan had decided to back off because she clearly loved another man and he was just toturing her. That allowed them to become good friends.

Then came Morrison's run... *sigh* I'll just say this, though: I don't read it as Logan rejecting Jean per se. I read it as he, finally, doing the decent thing, understanding that Jean was at her most fragile he'd ever seen her and if he didn't walk away, it would be the equivalent of taking advantage of her.

Logan being a simp has a lot to with Logan's past with Rose. It has been hinted through a lot of flashbacks from that trauma. Seeing how this could have gotten much closer is actually what was hinted during Morrison's run. He had a lot of character development down that road until other writers trying to overwhelm this fling after Morrison.

[Rang10]

Logn isn't a simp for Jean. He had a lot of women, he wasn't waiting crying for Jean notice him. Jean isn't special to him just as she isn't special to Scott

[Vishop]

Logn isn't a simp for Jean. He had a lot of women, Jean isn't special to him just as she isn't special to Scott

Hardly true for Logan. Already explained it above therefore I will just agree to disagree.

[Rang10]

Hardly true for Logan. Already explained it above therefore I will just agree to disagree.

wait a bit on my edit

I agree: I read that kiss as yet another one which started without her consent, considering that as she wasn't even looking at him, while talking about Scott and their marriage the whole time.

So I think it started with him kissing her and she kissing him back. And he may have realised she wasn't resisting as much as usual and maybe she wouldn't resist at all. And that made him realise it was wrong and he couldn't do that to her because she wasn't at her normal. So again: I see it as his finally doing the decent thing.

It's very not in character, it just confirms that Morrison wanted to make Jean look bad

the guy harassed her for yeas, then in the end he had the higher ground and is the one looking good?

[PlacidMule]

First of all People can date multiple characters. Second neither Silver Fox(for the second time) or Mariko was dating him when they died. Silver Fox's resurrection was retcon for sure but thats it. Third a lot of flashbacks that were hinted from his past indicated that Logan subconsciously feels and sees for Jean as Rose. So is to say that there could have a lot of scope in this relationship but after Tieri, writers didn't really cared.

I'm not used to posting here, primarily because in my lurking, I've seen it become very toxic at times, so I might not have been clear. I was merely replying to the "especially since Wolverine's thing isn't based on flattening out a female character". I did not state that characters can't date multiple characters, nor did I say anything about the characters statuses at the time of their being used as a plot device. I was speaking simply about their use as a plot device. Those characters fit the mold. Unfortunately it would take more of a post than I want to spend the time on to describe semantics of Wolverine's full romantic histories and the statuses therein.

[Havok83]

It's implied, though. In X-Men #3, both Scott and Emma arrive late, together, to the Council meeting. Jean doesn't seem very happy about it. Then later, the old gals of Hordeculture say: "I like married men and taking their things. It's not my fault that sometimes they die in car crashes." "Speaking of unsavory women... this one looks like a tart." "Uh-huh. She dresses like a s-word with a serious p-word problem. You need to wash yourself girl."

Emma looks shocked and Scott looks very embarassed. The Emma says "(...)So, dear, if you could hit these... ladies harder than you normally would, it would only make me love you more".

There's that issue of FF and X-men that Scott flirts a little with Emma, saying saying something like: "you know me: I live to serve".

When Kitty dies, Storm asks Emma where she had been and if she was too distracted visiting the moon (or something to this effect). Kurt asks Scott what he and Jean talked about concerning the Crucible. Then he asks what Scott and Emma talked about it. And on Cable, Scott is on Emma's boat when she's having a day off.

It's heavily implied and we maybe see something more explicit during the Hellfire Gala.

Until its actually on panel like Logan and Jean, its not really canon to me. Its too easy for any writer to ignore that in a way that they cant with the other pair

[Vishop]

wait a bit on my edit

Doesn't changes anything. Logan isn't the kinda guy who cries and in other words he is not emotionally sensitive and on top of that his healing factor. That doesn't mean he never grieves. I am derailing this thread with another character so I am leaving this conversation.

[Rang10]

Until its actually on panel like Logan and Jean, its not really canon to me. Its too easy for any writer to ignore that in a way that they cant with the other pair

They made it very easy to ignore and leave it open.

[Grinning Soul]

Logan being a simp has a lot to with Logan's past with Rose. It has been hinted through a lot of flashbacks from that trauma. Seeing how this could have gotten much closer is actually what was hinted during Morrison's run. He had a lot of character development down that road until other writers trying to overwhelm this fling after Morrison.

I think you make a good point.

It's like I said on another thread, Logan had so much panel time throughout those years, he's easily one of the most developed characters in the X-corner of the MU. When the writers decide to write him well, he's a very interesting character.

The problem is that they often stop at: "Beer. Snikt. Best there is. Kill". So it's also hard to talk about his motivations at a specific point.

Logn isn't a simp for Jean. He had a lot of women, he wasn't waiting crying for Jean notice him. Jean isn't special to him just as she isn't special to Scott

Oh... Come on, Rang, she's special to both of them. She's special to people who don't even have any romantic interest on her. :)

It's very not in character, it just confirms that Morrison wanted to make Jean look bad

the guy harassed her for yeas, then in the end he had the higher ground and is the one looking good?

You mean she's out of character?

Until its actually on panel like Logan and Jean, its not really canon to me. Its too easy for any writer to ignore that in a way that they cant with the other pair

I agree with you (edit: on how easy it is for writers to ignore it). :)

And that's why I don't like it that only Percy is showing it. But I think it's fair (since we never know who is reading) to consider that it is heavily implied that Scott and Emma are seeing each other, because I've seen people (not you, Havok) saying that Jean is cheating on Scott, even though it's fairly obvious that they have an arrangement and quite possible that he also has a lover who isn't his wife.

[Devaishwarya]

The Scott, Jean, Logan thing is canon. Not so much Emma. She doesnt really seem to be a part of this mess.

Emma and Scott have been in a committed relationship one sanctioned by Jean herself all throughout the Utopia Era...that's the canon I'm talking about.
While she's not an active part of the polyamory...she's and Scott have been shown to still have some genuine affection for each other...in X-Men 04, I believe.