Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[davetvs]

This is pedantic.

If Wolverine is shooting lasers next issue, something he normally doesn't do in 50 years of comics, people want to know why.

False equivalence. At this point there is nothing controversial about romantic and/or sexual interest between Jean and Scott, Jean and Logan, or Scott and Emma.

[Lucyinthesky]

I often see this argument, but what aspect she can’t develop because she is with him?

They’re both X-Men, this is their lives. And Scott has always been so cool about what she wanted to do: she wanted to go to university, he kept dating her anyway; she wanted to form a psychic rapport, he didn’t hesitate sharing his mind entirely; she wanted to form the X-Factor, he was there; she didn’t want to get married when he proposed, it hurt him, but he was cool about it and they got married when she proposed instead; she’s now walking away from the council to form a team; he’s right there…
They’ve always discussed what they wanted to do (the “intelectual” attraction part that I mentioned in the reply to Gray Lensman), how they see their roles in the world, how they want to live their personal lives, etc…

So, really, in-story how is that the Scott holds her back? A lot of this perception is also an echo chamber, arguments that keep being repeated over and over regardless of the factual aspects.

I’m not accusing you of that, by the way. I just think the in-story perspective should also be taken into account. Scott is really not the problem. The writers are.

Agreed, that´s exactly my point, it was about writers focusing too much on her relationship with Scott and Phoenix they usually don´t try to get more creative while writting her character like they did with younger Jean. I am just saying this affects her getting new takes on her powers and storylines, not because of Scott and Phoenix but because writers are used to focus more on this and on developing new stories or takes for her powers.

Oh, no… I mentioned the Phoenix Saga, actually.
By the end of Morrison’s run, when Jean dies, she had the full power of the Phoenix. More than being close to Sol, during the Phoenix Saga, she had been able to survive a neutron galaxy, which I assume is comprise by many neutron stars.
At 8:00, he talks about the magnetic field of a neutron star: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7euiD_kZi4g
"The magnetic field of a neutron star can be anywhere between one hundred million and one quadrillion times stronger than the Earth's, making them the most powerful magnetic fields in the known universe".
But a touch from Magneto/Xorn/whatever is too much!

Oh, now I get it.

Everytime Jean is phoenix is really hard to hurt her in a lasting ways, her only limits is her psysical body so I could see her being hurt by an attack like that but not mortally wounded.

Well Xorn himself has a star instead of a brain so I can see him hurting her but not enough to kill her and the less we talk about Morrison/Xorn/Magneto the better it never made sense for Magneto´s character to choose to make an elaborate plan that involves putting himself as a prisoner on China, as if he would not have issues about that at all given his past, just to torture the X-men, a team of people he respects and even was part of them in the past and getting addicted to Kick when he could be helping the survivors of Genosha, bury the dead and bring it back to life, you know, his dream mission. Morrison made him into a scobby doo cardboard villain, it was so bad and I am tired of arguing over the Xorn retcon so as far as I know Magneto was killed on Genosha and went back to life just as Claremont decided.Not only because of Chris it also makes more sense for Magneto´s character, who certainly doesn´t have a star for a brain

I wouldn’t be bored to tears. I live for that!

Me too XD but I am sure at some point some readers will want to see more action.

Yes. And he is the one who complements her the best. None of them have to move on. You don’t move on from a good thing.

Well right now she´s dead so it´s only logial for him to try to move on but if she comes back, yes,I would like to see them try again, it´s the same feeling I have over Magneto and Magda even if their romance ended way more tragically, Wolvie still can be happy with Mariko if she comes back and I love the idea of her being related to Silver Samurai and Shiro.

What happened during Morrison’s run, only happened because was Scott was going through a deeply traumatic event and they couldn’t figure out how to deal with it. But I’ve written a lot about it here already, so you if you want to talk about it, maybe we can chat in private?

It´s not neccesary I don´t disagree but still it´s something they should talk about because Scott indeed fell in love with Emma after their affair and Jean was honestly hurt by the affair even if she choose to blame Emma more than Scott so it makes sense for them to talk about it before getting back together or deciding to have an open relationship if that´s indeed what they have.

Honestly, I wouldn’t blame him at all for being insecure. He knows how attracted both Logan and Jean are to each other. He knows how crazily passionate she is. What if she actually prefers being intimate with Logan? Would Jean keep tabs on how much time she’s spending with each of them so it’s fair? And even if that was the case, would Scott be okay with her spending time with him out of fairness when she would prefer to be with Logan?

I am actually on Scott´s side in this, love Wolvie but him constantly trying to woo Jean away from Scott justify him in being wary of them being together for an extended period of time and if Jean prefers to be intimate with Logan then Jean and Logan should made it official and Scott would be free to have his own relationships and they still could be there for the children. Otherwise I feel like they would be lying to themselves given their story because they are not known to have casual sex with each other, I could buy it from Warren and Jean because they have never been that emotionally close but not from Logan and Jean.

[That’s not to mention the risk of pregnancy, right? I’m assuming Jean and Scott being all about family and Krakoa having a *law* about making new mutants, that Jean isn’t on the Krakoan equivalent of a birth control pill-- Okay… I’m done. I have to remember to turn off my brain when I read comics. My bad.

I think that Law only means they need to have more mutants to make up for decimation and Genosha imo and is also a clever play of words to oppose the "No more mutants curse", I never took it as a mandatory law to have more babies just to have them. I know some have taken it as a kind of law that forces women to have children but I don´t think it´s meant to be taken that way at all inside story.

Apparently Scott is super cool about it. He invited Logan for a family trip to Chandilore. What can I say?

What can we say indeed as I say I can see the implications but this doesn´t make sense to me given their personalities and past story so I am like, sure it´s there but it doesn´t make sense to me

It can be very sexy.

I’ll try to find an example with Jean and Scott themselves and I’ll post on their relationship’s appreciation thread. I’ll let you know.

Oh I know it´s sexy not argument in that. Thank you, I would like to see them.

That’s the thing. I totally buy that Jean would have understood the circumstances around the affair. I get it. But I still think they’re have to talk about it so nothing like that happens again. Those are two smart people who actually learn from their mistakes. And there were so many emotions that came from that period regardless of the affair that also have to be dealt with.

I mean, we *still* don’t know why was Scott so afraid that Jean wouldn’t love him anymore if she knew what he had become, what kind of darkness there was there and so on… Because, really, it’s not anywhere on the panels. Emma dismisses it the whole time in which she’s supposed to be treating him. As readers, we still don’t know. Seriously: I’m not exaggerating, we still don’t know.

Unfortunately, anything we want to say about it would be speculation, not factual. We can’t even tell if Scott was justified in being afraid, regardless of how Jean would actually react to it.

You see, I love Scott Summers too and I’m very interested in him as a character, so hell yeah: I want to see that talk!

Agreed

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Pedantic. People have obviously seen those pairings before, but arguing that there is no story between before Krakoa and now, as if any of those pairings happening simultaneously works make sense before is silly.

People want to know how it happened.

Some people, anyway. It doesn't matter really because only Percy scripts anything besides Jott and Jean isn't in his books anymore lol

[Rang10]

Pedantic. People have obviously seen those pairings before, but arguing that there is no story between before Krakoa and now, as if any of those pairings happening simultaneously works make sense before is silly.

People want to know how it happened.

Some people, anyway. It doesn't matter really because only Percy scripts anything besides Jott and Jean isn't in his books anymore lol

Yes! there is a story between them but nothing close to what some readers want. I'm saying "want", because there is no proof of any poliamor going on


It's weird that some people don't want a story to be told but want everyone to believe in what they believe even without proof.
I'm seriously baffled
then people wonder why indies are getting good sales and great books.

Rang, dear, we don't need as much proof as you do. Most of us accept that Jean and Scott are in an open marriage and, at the very least, Logan is her lover. It's okay that you don't. But most of our discussion presumes that this is happening.

If you want, you can still join the discussion, even if you see it as just headcanon and you don't agree that the premise (that the polyamorous relationship exists) is true. But I don't think you can change anyone's mind at this point... :/

This way you make me look like I want all kinda of proof. I just want the basic, the writers didn't delivered the basic. People believe in what they want, but without proof people will take their own conclusions.

I don't want to change anyone mind, I just don't want people to force their own headcanon in what I'm reading.
people can always move this speculation to a thread more appropriated

[Grinning Soul]

Sorry, I had to split the message in two because the form is complaining...

Agreed, that´s exactly my point, it was about writers focusing too much on her relationship with Scott and Phoenix they usually don´t try to get more creative while writting her character like they did with younger Jean. I am just saying this affects her getting new takes on her powers and storylines, not because of Scott and Phoenix but because writers are used to focus more on this and on developing new stories or takes for her powers.

Yep. That’d be great. But I’d be happy if they’d just be creative with the powers she currently has.

Oh, now I get it.

Everytime Jean is phoenix is really hard to hurt her in a lasting ways, her only limits is her psysical body so I could see her being hurt by an attack like that but not mortally wounded.

Yep. It’s easier to ignore stuff you don’t like or you think it shouldn’t be possible considering previous continuity when it doesn’t lead to your beloved character being dead for 15 years, though!

*sigh* :(

Well Xorn himself has a star instead of a brain so I can see him hurting her but not enough to kill her and the less we talk about Morrison/Xorn/Magneto the better it never made sense for Magneto´s character to choose to make an elaborate plan that involves putting himself as a prisoner on China, as if he would not have issues about that at all given his past, just to torture the X-men, a team of people he respects and even was part of them in the past and getting addicted to Kick when he could be helping the survivors of Genosha, bury the dead and bring it back to life, you know, his dream mission. Morrison made him into a scobby doo cardboard villain, it was so bad and I am tired of arguing over the Xorn retcon so as far as I know Magneto was killed on Genosha and went back to life just as Claremont decided.Not only because of Chris it also makes more sense for Magneto´s character, who certainly doesn´t have a star for a brain :)

Look, I know some fans loooooooove this kind of convoluted stuff, but I’m not one of those fans. :D

So really, I prefer to refer to is as Xorn/Magneto/whoever, because I just don’t have the patience to keep up with the retcons. :D

Me too XD but I am sure at some point some readers will want to see more action.

Oh, totally. I understand I’m weird! :D

Well right now she´s dead so it´s only logial for him to try to move on but if she comes back, yes,I would like to see them try again, it´s the same feeling I have over Magneto and Magda even if their romance ended way more tragically, Wolvie still can be happy with Mariko if she comes back and I love the idea of her being related to Silver Samurai and Shiro.

Okay! This is funny. You thought I was talking about Mariko? :D

I was talking about Jean and Scott. Honestly, what would make me throw a party for having Mariko marry Logan again would be the fact that Jean would be rid of that cursed triangle with Logan! :D

May Logan and Mariko be happy together forever! :D

[Grinning Soul]

It´s not neccesary I don´t disagree but still it´s something they should talk about because Scott indeed fell in love with Emma after their affair and Jean was honestly hurt by the affair even if she choose to blame Emma more than Scott so it makes sense for them to talk about it before getting back together or deciding to have an open relationship if that´s indeed what they have.

Exactly.

Her death and then his death makes it so much more complicated, because time has passed for Scott, but not as much for Jean. And anyway, before Krakoa, they didn’t have any time to talk about it. Because of their deaths.

So, for us it’s been 20 years, but for them, the unresolved aspect of their relationship was recent (again, before Krakoa).

II am actually on Scott´s side in this, love Wolvie but him constantly trying to woo Jean away from Scott justify him in being wary of them being together for an extended period of time and if Jean prefers to be intimate with Logan then Jean and Logan should made it official and Scott would be free to have his own relationships and they still could be there for the children.

Exactly. They don’t need to be a couple to be a family. So many divorced couples are friendly and enjoy their lives with their families.

But I was talking about insecurity, which is a different issue. That was just an example on how the insecurity could manifest. And how, for me, I find it hard to just believe those two would be okay in an open marriage.

Again, I don’t think there’s nothing wrong in polyamory. But I don’t think everyone can be polyamorous if they give it an honest try. It requires a certain type of personality that, in my opinion, neither Scott or Jean have.

Otherwise I feel like they would be lying to themselves given their story because they are not known to have casual sex with each other, I could buy it from Warren and Jean because they have never been that emotionally close but not from Logan and Jean.

Oh… Warren has carried a serious torch for her. I don’t think he’d be okay with it either, especially because he’s such a loyal friend to Scott as well. He wouldn’t want to risk losing two of his best friends.

I think that Law only means they need to have more mutants to make up for decimation and Genosha imo and is also a clever play of words to oppose the "No more mutants curse", I never took it as a mandatory law to have more babies just to have them. I know some have taken it as a kind of law that forces women to have children but I don´t think it´s meant to be taken that way at all inside story.

Yes, so… that’s how I choose to see it too. But I’m aware I’m choosing to see it. And I’m also aware that Krakoa is a weird place.

What bothers me here is the concept of *law*. Why call it a law if it’s not mandatory. You see my point?

I don’t *think* it is mandatory, especially if you consider the conversation between Rogue and Remy. Still… it really creeps me out. I won’t lie. Because who is to say what would happen if the QC decided it *is* mandatory like the other two laws?

What can we say indeed as I say I can see the implications but this doesn´t make sense to me given their personalities and past story so I am like, sure it´s there but it doesn´t make sense to me :D

Yeah. Let's leave it that, shall we? :D

Oh I know it´s sexy not argument in that. Thank you, I would like to see them.

I posted it on the Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021. :)

[Grinning Soul]

This way you make me look like I want all kinda of proof.

I'm sorry. I really didn't mean it this way.

I just want the basic, the writers didn't delivered the basic. People believe in what they want, but without proof people will take their own conclusions.

They will indeed. And what they've seen on the panel is enough for them. You have the right to disagree, but can't you try to accept that they have a different perspective?

Enter a discussion of something that doesn't exist? how this work? seriously.

No joking here, okay? It can actually be really fun. :)

Example: What would it be like if we could teleport everywhere?

As far as I know, we can't teleport (yet). But we can try to imagine and extrapolate from it.

I don't want to change anyone mind, I just don't want people to force their own headcanon in what I'm reading.

I don't think anyone is trying to force it though. We just see it differently.

people can always move this speculation to a thread more appropriated

But isn't it dangerous when we start to censor what is allowed and what isn't allowed to be said about the character? Personally, I think as long as it's about the character and it's being done by fans who appreciate the character with - above all - respect, it should be allowed.

Because otherwise we're just limiting ourselves to a few perspectives. Even sharing some panels might get censored because some people might not like what is on them.

You see how that can be problematic?


--

Please, Rang, try not to be so upset. There's been so many people who don't post often showing their interest and sharing their opinions. It's so lively, so enriching... Would you prefer them all stop and the thread to become kinda empty without much activity?

[Lucyinthesky]

Sorry, I had to split the message in two because the form is complaining...

No problem.

Yep. ThatÂ’d be great. But IÂ’d be happy if they’d just be creative with the powers she currently has.

Yes I just want them to explore the possibilities for storylines for her on this era as a former member of the QC and as a X-man.

Yep. It’s easier to ignore stuff you donÂ’t like or you think it shouldnÂ’t be possible considering previous continuity when it doesnÂ’t lead to your beloved character being dead for 15 years, though!*sigh*

I hated that too, it oppened my eyes to how teasing editorial and writers can get just for the fun of it but it wasn´t fun for me I wanted her back way sooner.

Look, I know some fans loooooooove this kind of convoluted stuff, but I’m not one of those fans.
So really, I prefer to refer to is as Xorn/Magneto/whoever, because I just donÂ’t have the patience to keep up with the retcons.

I understand, I don´t keep tabs on most retcons either unless they involve a favorite character, I hated "One more day" with a passion but this retcon was neccesary, the harder part for me was to try to have a conversation with fans that thought Morrison´s whole X-men run was the biggest, bestest thing ever to grace the X-men comics and I was just like, yeah no for me, Xorn is only one of the problems I had with it, but I won´t rain on your parade XD

Oh, totally. I understand IÂ’m weird!

Same here

Okay! This is funny. You thought I was talking about Mariko?
I was talking about Jean and Scott. Honestly, what would make me throw a party for having Mariko marry Logan again would be the fact that Jean would be rid of that cursed triangle with Logan! May Logan and Mariko be happy together forever!

Lol yes I started talking about Mariko because I think she´s been the love of his life, she´s a warrior like him, involves duty, family and love in a very similar way to his and it´s not surprised by his more dangerous side. I think he has great love, warm and caring for Jean but Mariko looks like his twin soul.

Exactly.
Her death and then his death makes it so much more complicated, because time has passed for Scott, but not as much for Jean. And anyway, before Krakoa, they didnÂ’t have any time to talk about it. Because of their deaths. So, for us itÂ’s been 20 years, but for them, the unresolved aspect of their relationship was recent (again, before Krakoa).

Exactly and that´s why it doesn´t make sense to me the fact they are not talking about any of it. They should, I knoe they were both excited to be alive and together again but it also makes sense to talk things out once the emotion went away.

Exactly. They donÂ’t need to be a couple to be a family. So many divorced couples are friendly and enjoy their lives with their families.

Agreed.

But I was talking about insecurity, which is a different issue. That was just an example on how the insecurity could manifest. And how, for me, I find it hard to just believe those two would be okay in an open marriage. Again, I donÂ’t think thereÂ’s nothing wrong in polyamory. But I donÂ’t think everyone can be polyamorous if they give it an honest try. It requires a certain type of personality that, in my opinion, neither Scott or Jean have.

Agreed

OhÂ… Warren has carried a serious torch for her. I donÂ’t think heÂ’d be okay with it either, especially because heÂ’s such a loyal friend to Scott as well. He wouldnÂ’t want to risk losing two of his best friends.

Exactly and it would not be fair to Warren either if he has real feelings for her and she just wants to have casual sex with him, I feel the same thing in the case of Logan and they have shared way more story together than Warren and Jean.

Yes, soÂ… thatÂ’s how I choose to see it too. But IÂ’m aware IÂ’m choosing to see it. And I’m also aware that Krakoa is a weird place.
What bothers me here is the concept of *law*. Why call it a law if itÂ’s not mandatory. You see my point?
I donÂ’t *think* it is mandatory, especially if you consider the conversation between Rogue and Remy. StillÂ… it really creeps me out. I wonÂ’t lie. Because who is to say what would happen if the QC decided it *is* mandatory like the other two laws?

So far the only law I have seen the QC enforce in a mandatory way has been "Kill no man" the other two are open to interpretation and so far they have let their population decide how to tackle them in fact Si Spurrier made a comment about how this can cause trouble in some circunstances and why his title is all about Krakoa´s need for some direction to keep them from self destruction.

It´s curious but despite this law so far we have seen many casual sex but no person being pregnant, even Cable´s book tackled the idea of babies being born outside Krakoa than inside it and the law could also be taken as "we will bring back to life every mutant ever" it´s a law very open to interpretation.

Yeah. Let's leave it that, shall we?

Agreed.

I posted it on the Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021.

THANK YOU

[Grinning Soul]

Yes I just want them to explore the possibilities for storylines for her on this era as a former member of the QC and as a X-man.

As I said many posts ago, I think Jean is very unique when it comes to certain characteristics of her personality. It puts her in privileged position to occupy many different roles.

Just one example: leadership.

I think Jean can lead a team with no problem. In other words, she can be a general. But I think where she really shines is on the inspiring type of leadership and that means occupying the role of the queen for which the army fights; the saint for which the followers take on crusades; the diplomat that can twist world leaders around her little finger.

And that power of inspiring leadership that Jean has is, arguably, stronger than Xavier’s.

And that’s just one example.

I hated that too, it oppened my eyes to how teasing editorial and writers can get just for the fun of it but it wasn´t fun for me I wanted her back way sooner.

Yeah… Not only Marvel kept her dead for 15 years, they were mean about it… But, yeah, before anyone gets upset with how I feel about that experience, maybe I should shut up. :)

I understand, I don´t keep tabs on most retcons either unless they involve a favorite character, I hated "One more day" with a passion but this retcon was neccesary, the harder part for me was to try to have a conversation with fans that thought Morrison´s whole X-men run was the biggest, bestest thing ever to grace the X-men comics and I was just like, yeah no for me, Xorn is only one of the problems I had with it, but I won´t rain on your parade XD

You can vent about Morrison’s run with me as much as you want. I will never look down on you for not loving it. :D

Lol yes I started talking about Mariko because I think she´s been the love of his life, she´s a warrior like him, involves duty, family and love in a very similar way to his and it´s not surprised by his more dangerous side. I think he has great love, warm and caring for Jean but Mariko looks like his twin soul.

Jean and Logan’s relationship is a weird one. I’d say it’s mostly attraction, but there are different kinds of love there too.

I don’t see Jean having romantic feelings for him. There’s a lot of attraction, a lot of endearment and quite a lot of compassion. I think Jean loves the way he loves her, more than she loves him… Does it make sense to you?

And for Logan… I think it’s a mix of things. Other than a lot of attraction, I think it starts with the fact that when she met him, she saw more than and animal and a weapon. I think she was one of the persons that made him reconnect to his humanity and start to learn to be more sociable and accepted in the X-Men family. I think she inspires him to try to be better. And I think she’s also the one he couldn’t have (pre-Krakoa).

But, though the friendship and affection between them is genuine, I can’t imagine them being an actual couple. For instance, what would those two talk about?

Being honest here? I think being in a long-term relationship with Jean requires a *very* special man, because she’s a complex woman. The guy needs to someone who is both intelligent and cautious, strong but malleable, steadfast but passionate, calm but resolute, willing to both lead and follow, etc…

You don’t find that mix very often. And if you don’t have it, it’s easy to get into a relationship that is very uneven, where the guy puts her on a pedestal.

[Grinning Soul]

Exactly and that´s why it doesn´t make sense to me the fact they are not talking about any of it. They should, I knoe they were both excited to be alive and together again but it also makes sense to talk things out once the emotion went away.

I suppose we’re to assume they’re talking about some things? But then on panel Scott tells Kurt that they haven’t talked about the Crucible. For me this is like: “What? Wait… Jean can’t be okay with it and if she’s not, Scott would be first person she’d want to talk about it.”

That’s why I can’t shake off the feeling that Jean is somewhat high/drugged/chemically or telepathically depressed…

It could be writers just being bad, of course… But I don’t know. She just doesn’t feel fully there.

Exactly and it would not be fair to Warren either if he has real feelings for her and she just wants to have casual sex with him, I feel the same thing in the case of Logan and they have shared way more story together than Warren and Jean.

I would disagree about Logan and Jean having more story together than Warren and Jean, though…

But yeah, up to the point when Jean is getting married, Warren is still in love with her. After that, I guess he accepted his two best friends were married and we’ve never seen it again and then she was dead.

So who knows? But his feeling were genuine. He didn’t act on them because he’s awesome and he didn’t want to create any problem his best friends. :)

So far the only law I have seen the QC enforce in a mandatory way has been "Kill no man" the other two are open to interpretation and so far they have let their population decide how to tackle them

My point exactly: so far.

Say Exodus decides that David is breaking the “respect this sacred land law” by doing something that is deemed disrespectful, whatever that means. He will be judged by the same body that created those laws.

This is so dangerous!

But again, I have to remember to turn my brain off when I read comic books. :D

in fact Si Spurrier made a comment about how this can cause trouble in some circunstances and why his title is all about Krakoa´s need for some direction to keep them from self destruction.

I think he’ll address it in Way of X #3, right? I’m particularly curious because it was the law that Kurt himself suggested.

It´s curious but despite this law so far we have seen many casual sex but no person being pregnant, even Cable´s book tackled the idea of babies being born outside Krakoa than inside it and the law could also be taken as "we will bring back to life every mutant ever" it´s a law very open to interpretation.

In the X-Mondays some weeks ago, they said that some babies must have been born already. I really hope we see some of them in Way of X too, because I really dislike the idea that I have to read interviews to understand what is going on.


--
As for the pages I posted on the other thread: my pleasure. I love those two. :)

[Lucyinthesky]

As I said many posts ago, I think Jean is very unique when it comes to certain characteristics of her personality. It puts her in privileged position to occupy many different roles.Just one example: leadership.I think Jean can lead a team with no problem. In order words, she can be a general. But where I think where she really shines is on the inspiring type of leadership and that means occupying the role of the queen for which the army fights; the saint for which the followers take on crusades; the diplomat that can twist world leaders around her little finger.And that power of inspiring leadership that Jean has is, arguably, stronger than Xavier’s.And thatÂ’s just one example.

I would also like to see her in a leadership role and know what´s her personal style that´s different to the one Xavier, Cyclops and Storm have and have some missions born from this personal style. I think that while she has a lot of unexplored habilities, she still lacks the experience Xavier has, like sure he´s a kind of a jerk now but part of the reason he´s like that now is because he spend a lot of time being a leader and the made him bitter so it would be interesting to see Jean tackle those kinds of issues and find a different answer, imo she´s yet to have an opportunity to truly tackle dangerouns missions in which her personal pov is challenged, the kind of missions Cyclops had during the decimation era and I would not mind to see her try her hand and bring her own ideas to the table. I know writers could just have her solve everything with her habilities, power or charisma and it could be done but I think the struggle really gives the characters an opportunity to show how they are under good and difficult times.

Like when Storm had to help the depowered X-men agaisnt a overpowered cerebro unit, Cyclops vs Bastion etc, I think their leadership truly shines when it´s put under struggle and crisis and it´s the same case with Jean, we have seen her being heroic on her own, being a great part of a team but we have yet to see her lead under extremely difficult circunstances and I would like to see that. We already saw some of this leadership in X-men RED but and this is just my oppinion, felt like it was a little too easy, it was easy to read the minds of other people and then come to the idea of a nation supported by atlantis and it was easy to have the support of the Avengers to defeat Cassandra Nova, so I would like to see her lead a team and struggle with it, like having lack of resources, people disagreeing with her, strong adversaries, her pov having to adapt to a complex circunstance, that kind of thing I would love to read with her.

YeahÂ… Not only Marvel kept her dead for 15 years, they were mean about it… But, yeah, before anyone gets upset with how I feel about that experience, maybe I should shut up.

I understand completely and don´t worry.

You can vent about Morrison’s run with me as much as you want. I will never look down on you for not loving it.

Thank you.

Jean and LoganÂ’s relationship is a weird one. IÂ’d say itÂ’s mostly attraction, but there are different kinds of love there too.
I donÂ’t see Jean having romantic feelings for him. ThereÂ’s a lot of attraction, a lot of endearment and quite a lot of compassion. I think Jean loves the way he loves her, more than she loves himÂ… Does it make sense to you?

Yes I think that kind of attention and passion would be hard to ignore and make her hold warm feelings for him.

And for LoganÂ… I think itÂ’s a mix of things. Other than a lot of attraction, I think it starts with the fact that when she met him, she saw more than and animal and a weapon. I think she was one of the persons that made him reconnect to his humanity and start to learn to be more sociable and accepted in the X-Men family. I think she inspires him to try to be better. And I think sheÂ’s also the one he couldnÂ’t have (pre-Krakoa).But, though the friendship and affection between them is genuine, I canÂ’t imagine them being an actual couple. For instance, what would those two talk about?

Yes I think there´s a lot of that him bassically redoing his story with Rose with Jean and Scott but also a wish to be accepted as a person and belong in a family called the X-men, I think she tried to help him her own way and in the journey started having feelings for him but maybe not exactly romantic love, I could see them growing towards it given the opportunity but it would take time and both of them being in that dispossition. I think they could work as a couple based only on their experience as X-men, I don´t think that would be hard for them but we don´t know If they would truly feel like they quick together or they are just trying to fullfil a wish/yearning with the other.

Being honest here? I think being in a long-term relationship with Jean requires a *very* special man, because sheÂ’s a complex woman. The guy needs to someone who is both intelligent and cautious, strong but malleable, steadfast but passionate, calm but resolute, willing to both lead and follow, etcÂ…
You donÂ’t find that mix very often. And if you donÂ’t have it, itÂ’s easy to get into a relationship that is very uneven, where the guy puts her on a pedestal.

Exactly it needs to be a equal relationship in which both can freely talk about their issues, what they love of the other and what keeps them together.

I suppose we’re to assume they’re talking about some things? But then on panel Scott tells Kurt that they haven’t talked about the Crucible. For me this is like: “What? Wait… Jean can’t be okay with it and she’s not, Scott would be first person she’d want to talk about it.”
ThatÂ’s why I canÂ’t shake off the feeling that Jean is somewhat high/drugged/chemically or telepathically depressedÂ…
It could be writers just being bad, of courseÂ… But I donÂ’t know. She just doesnÂ’t feel fully there.

She could have been outvoted by the council but in that case it would be interesting if she proposed an alternative law. I could see her doing that.

I would disagree about Logan and Jean having more story together than Warren and Jean, thoughÂ…
But yeah, up to the point when Jean is getting married, Warren is still in love with her. After that, I guess he accepted his two best friends were married and weÂ’ve never seen it again and then she was dead.So who knows? But his feeling were genuine. He didnÂ’t act on them because heÂ’s awesome and he didnÂ’t want to create any problem his best friends.

Yes but then again Warren is their friend since the O5 X-men, Logan was a lone wolf when he meet them, used to speak his mind and it was only after he developed a family feeling for the X-men, Scott and Jean that he laid off them and respected their relationship, I liked this character development from him, especially the letter he wrote for their wedding.

My point exactly: so far. Say Exodus decides that David is breaking the “respect this sacred land law” by doing something that is deemed disrespectful, whatever that means. He will be judge by the same body that created those laws. This is so dangerous! But again, I have to remember to turn my brain off when I read comic books. I think he’ll address it in Way of X #3, right? I’m particularly curious because it was the law that Kurt himself suggested.

Spurrier probably will tackle this because he said "respect this sacred land" was the more open to interpretation from the three, I don´t think in this case he would be judged but I could see David being brought to the QC and them deciding if he indeed broke the law or not, Krakoa needs more institutions to deal with this kind of stuff, that´s for sure.

In the X-Mondays some weeks ago, they said that some babies must have been born already. I really hope we see some of them in Way of X too, because I really dislike the idea that I have to read interviews to understand what is going on.

I missed that, if that´s true yes, it would be nice to see if indeed more babies have been born, they also teased it for the gala but so far we have not seen much art tackling this theme.
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As for the pages I posted on the other thread: my pleasure. I love those two.

Yes me too, they are one of my favorite couples too

[Rang10]

I'm sorry. I really didn't mean it this way.

ok, asking for proof shouldn't be a crime like some people want to make. it here

They will indeed. And what they've seen on the panel is enough for them. You have the right to disagree, but can't you try to accept that they have a different perspective?

Not sure how much they are interested on Jean Grey development, one even called Jean a slut.

No joking here, okay? It can actually be really fun.

Example: What would it be like if we could teleport everywhere?

As far as I know, we can't teleport (yet). But we can try to imagine and extrapolate from it.

That is a very short conversation. " if I could teleport I would go to a beach in vietnam and at night I would go to a nightclube in Paris"
Beyond some point it is like people discussing fanfic because there isnt any anchor for it on books.

I don't think anyone is trying to force it though. We just see it differently.

I'm really not sure. Some posts were in mocking tone " oh you can't see this obvious thing?"

But isn't it dangerous when we start to censor what is allowed and what isn't allowed to be said about the character? Personally, I think as long as it's about the character and it's being done by fans who appreciate the character with - above all - respect, it should be allowed.

Because otherwise we're just limiting ourselves to a few perspectives. Even sharing some panels might get censored because some people might not like what is on them.

You see how that can be problematic?

I dont think there is notihing problematic on it or even a censorship. There is nothing new on that. It's like Scott and Jean, people will actually appreaciate it more and discuss it more on the couple thread, there isnt a censorship. Just a very obvious thing.


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Please, Rang, try not to be so upset. There's been so many people who don't post often showing their interest and sharing their opinions. It's so lively, so enriching... Would you prefer them all stop and the thread to become kinda empty without much activity?

I'm not the problem. I'm jus not a fan of people projecting their headcanons/wish like it was a gospel truth.
I only have this safe space to discuss Jean and someone calls her a slut here. People can ALSO discuss this on other thread.

[Harpsikord]

Thank you! That would have been my guess too.

Do you know how much time passed between the last issue of Uncanny and the first pannel of HoX/PoX (after the resurrection scene)? I mean, really, the very first panel, with Colosus's hand holding a flower.

Best to assume that the time between that page and HoxPox was like six months, which I think is what was said?

[Rang10]

Lol yes I started talking about Mariko because I think she´s been the love of his life, she´s a warrior like him, involves duty, family and love in a very similar way to his and it´s not surprised by his more dangerous side. I think he has great love, warm and caring for Jean but Mariko looks like his twin soul.

Agree. No doubt that Mariko was the most important woman on Logan's life.

Good that she will get a one-shot outside of X-office. It's her due, too bd Percy is wasting whole Logan's family and he reaaly did dirty to Mariko

Exactly and it would not be fair to Warren either if he has real feelings for her and she just wants to have casual sex with him, I feel the same thing in the case of Logan and they have shared way more story together than Warren and Jean.

Agree on both cases and Jean would never propose casual sex specially for these two.

So far the only law I have seen the QC enforce in a mandatory way has been "Kill no man" the other two are open to interpretation and so far they have let their population decide how to tackle them in fact Si Spurrier made a comment about how this can cause trouble in some circunstances and why his title is all about Krakoa´s need for some direction to keep them from self destruction.

It´s curious but despite this law so far we have seen many casual sex but no person being pregnant, even Cable´s book tackled the idea of babies being born outside Krakoa than inside it and the law could also be taken as "we will bring back to life every mutant ever" it´s a law very open to interpretation.

I dont think there has been a lot of casual sex.

The explanation is simple: babies are really avoided on fiction, specially that JDW said no to babies.

Hickman said on the interiew that the law was more about bringing back mutants and not about women getting pregnant.

Incentive women getting kids is very a fascist playbook

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The explanation is simple: babies are really avoided on fiction, specially that JDW said no to babies.

And for good reason. All it would do is age the characters, distract from superhero stories with eye-rolling junk about needing a baby-sitter, and invite writers to bring in even more annoying "grown up babies coming from the future" characters. Nope, nope, nope. He's right.

Gah, just imagine this era's Jean Grey but made even worse by limiting her even further with Jubilee's Shogo stories. Eeew.