Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Rang10]

And for good reason. All it would do is age the characters, distract from superhero stories with eye-rolling junk about needing a baby-sitter, and invite writers to bring in even more annoying "grown up babies coming from the future" characters. Nope, nope, nope. He's right.

Gah, just imagine this era's Jean Grey but made even worse by limiting her even further with Jubilee's Shogo stories. Eeew.

Well I think characters have to age, so having kids shouldn't be problem. But them what you do with kids when future writers doesnt want to write stories about the kids?

Some writers are terrible with it too. Jubilee and Shogo have getting bad stories on Excalibur. Yeah, te last thing I would want for Jean would be this kinda of story. She already have enough problems on this era

[Lucyinthesky]

Agree. No doubt that Mariko was the most important woman on Logan's life.
Good that she will get a one-shot outside of X-office. It's her due, too bd Percy is wasting whole Logan's family and he reaaly did dirty to Mariko

Percy has written Mariko? This are great news, she´s a very interesting character.

Agree on both cases and Jean would never propose casual sex specially for these two.

Usually she would not and this is also the problem I see with an open relationship between people who have genuine feelings for each other while knowing the central couple is still Jean and Scott.

I dont think there has been a lot of casual sex.

Agreed, I was refering to the comments some fans made about Krakoan´s and their never ending parties and Spurrier talked about Krakoa´s youngters being used to casual sex now that they are quasi inmortal and able to cure almost any illness.

The explanation is simple: babies are really avoided on fiction, specially that JDW said no to babies.
Hickman said on the interiew that the law was more about bringing back mutants and not about women getting pregnant.
Incentive women getting kids is very a fascist playbook

Agreed completely poor Franklin and Valeria were allowed to grow until now, as well as Luna, Tommy and Billy had to be killed and retroactively brought back, May Parker is nowhere to be seen, Spider-Women babies are just references of their bios, Cable had to grow up on a dystopic dimension and Rachel has AU parents. I think only Luke and Jessica Cage had been able to give their daughter a more normal childhood and we saw her grow up in the future, so kudos for their writers. It takes certain skill to have a heroine have a child and then give that child a role as an infant and as an adult inside the story and not every book is built for that.

Yes it´s a fascist initiative, one I don´t think the writers had in mind when they made that rule, I agree with your Hickman quote, that Law is about briging back dead mutants than about having babies, if Krakoa really was focusing on getting more mutants from pregnancies it would be just natural to see more babies around the island even if they are not from the main characters, normal after a year living there to see them crawling around there but so far we have just Jubilee and her baby on Krakoa.

[Rang10]

Percy has written Mariko? This are great news, she´s a very interesting character.

It was just a data page, that was why I said he did dirty to her. Her last meaninful story was on Old man Logan by Brisson.

Usually she would not and this is also the problem I see with an open relationship between people who have genuine feelings for each other while knowing the central couple is still Jean and Scott.

It's really betray the core of all characters involved, it's a lot of jumping shark around.

Agreed, I was refering to the comments some fans made about Krakoan´s and their never ending parties and Spurrier talked about Krakoa´s youngters being used to casual sex now that they are quasi inmortal and able to cure almost any illness.

I really didnt saw that comment from Spurrier.

Agreed completely poor Franklin and Valeria were allowed to grow until now, as well as Luna, Tommy and Billy had to be killed and retroactively brought back, May Parker is nowhere to be seen, Spider-Women babies are just references of their bios, Cable had to grow up on a dystopic dimension and Rachel has AU parents. I think only Luke and Jessica Cage had been able to give their daughter a more normal childhood and we saw her grow up in the future, so kudos for their writers. It takes certain skill to have a heroine have a child and then give that child a role as an infant and as an adult inside the story and not every book is built for that.

Yes it´s a fascist initiative, one I don´t think the writers had in mind when they made that rule, I agree with your Hickman quote, that Law is about briging back dead mutants than about having babies, if Krakoa really was focusing on getting more mutants from pregnancies it would be just natural to see more babies around the island even if they are not from the main characters, normal after a year living there to see them crawling around there but so far we have just Jubilee and her baby on Krakoa.

Jessica's baby is a important part of her book, she was fighting to find a cure for a potential sickness he might get on future. But the rest really tracks, comics has a weird relationship with kids: they get killed, dissappear forever, get aged in the future or come from the future aged. That is why kids on comic have to be put a lot of thought, so the story can flow.

I think that Hickman thought about getting more mutants back and resuing the ones on earth. It was readers that thought it was about characters getting pregnant.
I don't think readers really thought it through, even without any law with millions of mutants women will eventually get pregnant and have babies. It's a very natual thing. Like from 500k women, if 1% get pregnant it will like 5k pregnant women on a island. That is a like a entire neighboourhood of only pregnant women. The fact that we dont see it is kinda of a plot hole

I remember on Excalibur Apocalypse making a point about mutants being born on Krakoa being strongs, then writer talk it but forget to show it.

[Lucyinthesky]

It was just a data page, that was why I said he did dirty to her. Her last meaninful story was on Old man Logan by Brisson.

I think she had a small story in Wolverine: Black, White & Blood.

It's really betray the core of all characters involved, it's a lot of jumping shark around.

In a way yes, unless is part of the story but so far it´s we have seen little of it.

I really didnt saw that comment from Spurrier.

It was on X-men Monday, he talked about Kurt tackling the "Make more mutants" Law he made a comment about how Krakoa´s context would change how relationships would be seen in a lighter way by the younger generation and how that would lead them to have more casual sex between each other.

Like the best societal sci-fi, the realities of life on Krakoa ask us to imagine how we (or those around us) might behave if some of the most important fixed realities in our lives shifted. For instance: Krakoans have an almost infinite capacity to be cured of sickness and disease. Does that mean thereÂ’s a whole heckload more casual sex going on? Maybe.

Jessica's baby is a important part of her book, she was fighting to find a cure for a potential sickness he might get on future. But the rest really tracks, comics has a weird relationship with kids: they get killed, dissappear forever, get aged in the future or come from the future aged. That is why kids on comic have to be put a lot of thought, so the story can flow.

Agreed completely if the writer doesn´t have a role for the child in the near future then it may be better not to tell that story yet.

I think that Hickman thought about getting more mutants back and resuing the ones on earth. It was readers that thought it was about characters getting pregnant.
I don't think readers really thought it through, even without any law with millions of mutants women will eventually get pregnant and have babies. It's a very natual thing. Like from 500k women, if 1% get pregnant it will like 5k pregnant women on a island. That is a like a entire neighboourhood of only pregnant women. The fact that we dont see it is kinda of a plot hole

Agreed, especially when we add Genosha´s population, it´s only natural, without need of a law.

I remember on Excalibur Apocalypse making a point about mutants being born on Krakoa being strongs, then writer talk it but forget to show it.

I remember that scene too so I guess there already are more new baby mutants on Krakoa, we just have not seen them yet.

[Grinning Soul]

Best to assume that the time between that page and HoxPox was like six months, which I think is what was said?

Five months pass between that panel in which Piortr is holding the flower and the Cuckoos arriving at the Jerusalem Habitat.

I'm not trying to be stubborn. I'm just really curious if it's mentioned anywhere, because sometimes I miss things or it could have been said in a book I didn't read.

[Grinning Soul]

I would also like to see her in a leadership role and know what´s her personal style that´s different to the one Xavier, Cyclops and Storm have and have some missions born from this personal style. I think that while she has a lot of unexplored habilities, she still lacks the experience Xavier has, like sure he´s a kind of a jerk now but part of the reason he´s like that now is because he spend a lot of time being a leader and the made him bitter so it would be interesting to see Jean tackle those kinds of issues and find a different answer, imo she´s yet to have an opportunity to truly tackle dangerouns missions in which her personal pov is challenged, the kind of missions Cyclops had during the decimation era and I would not mind to see her try her hand and bring her own ideas to the table. I know writers could just have her solve everything with her habilities, power or charisma and it could be done but I think the struggle really gives the characters an opportunity to show how they are under good and difficult times.

Like when Storm had to help the depowered X-men agaisnt a overpowered cerebro unit, Cyclops vs Bastion etc, I think their leadership truly shines when it´s put under struggle and crisis and it´s the same case with Jean, we have seen her being heroic on her own, being a great part of a team but we have yet to see her lead under extremely difficult circunstances and I would like to see that. We already saw some of this leadership in X-men RED but and this is just my oppinion, felt like it was a little too easy, it was easy to read the minds of other people and then come to the idea of a nation supported by atlantis and it was easy to have the support of the Avengers to defeat Cassandra Nova, so I would like to see her lead a team and struggle with it, like having lack of resources, people disagreeing with her, strong adversaries, her pov having to adapt to a complex circunstance, that kind of thing I would love to read with her.

I’m thinking about it as I’m reading your post… The thing is, I think Jean makes it easy, or at least easier, because she does have her powers and if you think of it in-story there’s no reason why she shouldn’t use them. Moreover, what made it easy for her was that, in fact, she asked for help.

But then again, why shouldn’t she? For instance, why shouldn’t she ask for the Avengers help instead of being upset because they didn’t come help on their own…?

Do you know what I mean? Maybe she isn’t a narratively interesting leader because she’s just too resourceful?

I’m really thinking about it. And, my preliminary answer here would be this: like everything else about Jean, challenging her if she’s in the leadership role, requires a writer to make use of nuance and some very smart narrative “tricks”, which usually we don’t see much in traditional superhero books…

Yes I think that kind of attention and passion would be hard to ignore and make her hold warm feelings for him.

Yes, I believe most women would find it very flattering. I believe Jean would find it more flattering than most women. But I also believe that Jean would understand that it coloured the way she feels about him and she’d clearly know the difference between that and actual romantic feelings. And the reason I believe that is because she is lucky enough to have experienced a very different kind of love and there is actually no comparison between those two different types: it's like comparing oranges and wine.

Yes I think there´s a lot of that him bassically redoing his story with Rose with Jean and Scott but also a wish to be accepted as a person and belong in a family called the X-men, I think she tried to help him her own way and in the journey started having feelings for him but maybe not exactly romantic love, I could see them growing towards it given the opportunity but it would take time and both of them being in that dispossition. I think they could work as a couple based only on their experience as X-men, I don´t think that would be hard for them but we don´t know If they would truly feel like they quick together or they are just trying to fullfil a wish/yearning with the other.

That’s the thing… I think Jean loves being mentally stimulated. She has a brilliant mind with dreams, with abstract and metaphysical considerations, with social and psychological interests… Logan is not stupid but he just can’t engage meaningfully in these kinds of conversations, because they just don’t interest him. He’d probably just think she’s so smart and drool on her intellect, then tell her to go talk to Chuck about it.

And while she certainly talks to her friends about it, I think this mental energy is actually a turn on to her and she would want to have these kind of interactions with her significant other.

That’s why I said in my reply to Grey Lensman (on #3724) about Jean and Scott: “Those two burn for each other, they have this emotional, intellectual and physical attraction that works like a magnet and pulls them to each other. Something that actually bothered Jean at some point because she felt that loving him was inevitable.”

On AUs, when perhaps Jean is slightly different or hasn’t experience this kind of attraction, I guess it could work? But for 616 Jean? I think she’d always feel there’s something really special, really important missing, because even though I don’t think she’d be comparing Logan to Scott all the time, she’d compare whatever partner she has to what she wants of a relationship. And I don’t think she’d be able to dial that need for intellectual stimulation down. She's too passionate for that.

And that’s one of the reasons why it’s so hard for me to see Jean and Logan working as a couple in the long run.

Exactly it needs to be a equal relationship in which both can freely talk about their issues, what they love of the other and what keeps them together.

I think it’s more than talking, though.

Jean is so complex because even though she has that girl-next-door vibe, even though she’s warm and super approachable, she’s also a femme fatale of the alluring kind. She should be intimidating af. :D

It takes more than a man who feels the need to claim he’s the best there is all the time.

It takes the quiet confidence of a man who is very certain about what he wants and who he is, who is able to understand that hurricane of a woman and stand up to her, not to be antagonistic but not to be pushed over either, you know? A guy who is not afraid of the hard work that this relationship entails because he’s intelligent enough to understand that the rewards more than pay for the energy he puts into it. That requires full commitment and a rare level of intellectual and emotional sophistication: Jean is high maintenance, hyper high reward and it takes both courage and determination to really work for a relationship like this.

She could have been outvoted by the council but in that case it would be interesting if she proposed an alternative law. I could see her doing that.

Maybe she tried and she was outvoted on that law as well? It’s a shame we didn’t get to see it.

Yes but then again Warren is their friend since the O5 X-men, Logan was a lone wolf when he meet them, used to speak his mind and it was only after he developed a family feeling for the X-men, Scott and Jean that he laid off them and respected their relationship, I liked this character development from him, especially the letter he wrote for their wedding.

Yes! That letter is one of my favourite things ever written about Jean and Scott’s relationship. :)

Spurrier probably will tackle this because he said "respect this sacred land" was the more open to interpretation from the three, I don´t think in this case he would be judged but I could see David being brought to the QC and them deciding if he indeed broke the law or not, Krakoa needs more institutions to deal with this kind of stuff, that´s for sure.

Like I said, I have to remember to turn off my brain when I read comic books so I can enjoy them. It’s so hard, though.

I missed that, if that´s true yes, it would be nice to see if indeed more babies have been born, they also teased it for the gala but so far we have not seen much art tackling this theme.

Found it:

“In regard to us not having seen any babies, we haven’t seen any babies among like the big X-Men. Now again, that mostly has to do with meta reasons of it being not a great idea for our superheroes to have babies with them a lot of the times, but it also has to do with the fact that they have other stuff they’re doing. But I think that there are people having babies in the background and we did show a baby having been born in Cable.

Although now that I think about it, those two didn’t live on Krakoa, did they? I’m trying to remember if they were back and forth or I think they were weirded out by it. But I think we can believe that babies are happening, but it will be dealt with more directly both in Way of X and elsewhere.”

https://aiptcomics.com/2021/02/08/x-...and-jean-grey/

[Rang10]

I think she had a small story in Wolverine: Black, White & Blood.

That is good, but it is a Wolverine Anthology not in continuity. She still needs tobe made justice.

In a way yes, unless is part of the story but so far it´s we have seen little of it.

I'm not sure if writers can justify a 180º turn on characters, at some point they just turn on other characters

It was on X-men Monday, he talked about Kurt tackling the "Make more mutants" Law he made a comment about how Krakoa´s context would change how relationships would be seen in a lighter way by the younger generation and how that would lead them to have more casual sex between each other.

well he said maybe. Hard to say how people gonna behave on Krakoa circumstances.

Agreed completely if the writer doesn´t have a role for the child in the near future then it may be better not to tell that story yet.

The problem is that new writers will come and not everyone is good or interested on that.

Agreed, especially when we add Genosha´s population, it´s only natural, without need of a law.



I remember that scene too so I guess there already are more new baby mutants on Krakoa, we just have not seen them yet.

For me they just didn't thought about it. They talk a lot but not show it.

Found it:

“In regard to us not having seen any babies, we haven’t seen any babies among like the big X-Men. Now again, that mostly has to do with meta reasons of it being not a great idea for our superheroes to have babies with them a lot of the times, but it also has to do with the fact that they have other stuff they’re doing. But I think that there are people having babies in the background and we did show a baby having been born in Cable.

Although now that I think about it, those two didn’t live on Krakoa, did they? I’m trying to remember if they were back and forth or I think they were weirded out by it. But I think we can believe that babies are happening, but it will be dealt with more directly both in Way of X and elsewhere.”

https://aiptcomics.com/2021/02/08/x-...and-jean-grey/

They weren't living on Krakoa for some reason, that is why it ws easy to kidnap the baby. So the only baby that they show is not even born on Krakoa

[Grinning Soul]

They weren't living on Krakoa for some reason, that is why it ws easy to kidnap the baby. So the only baby that they show is not even born on Krakoa

I was just quoting the interview. These parts in specifics: "But I think that there are people having babies in the background (...) But I think we can believe that babies are happening, but it will be dealt with more directly both in Way of X and elsewhere.”

[Lucyinthesky]

IÂ’m thinking about it as IÂ’m reading your postÂ… The thing is, I think Jean makes it easy, or at least easier, because she does have her powers and if you think of it in-story thereÂ’s no reason why she shouldnÂ’t use them. Moreover, what made it easy for her was that, in fact, she asked for help.

I am not saying she should not use her powers, I am saying it would have been good to see her come to that conclusion by her own means and powers always can be challenged in comics, when they are it can become an opportunity to let the characters show their skills without powers.

But then again, why shouldnÂ’t she? For instance, why shouldnÂ’t she ask for the Avengers help instead of being upset because they didnÂ’t come help on their ownÂ…?
Do you know what I mean? Maybe she isn’t a narratively interesting leader because sheÂ’s just too resourceful?
IÂ’m really thinking about it. And, my preliminary answer here would be this: like everything else about Jean, challenging her if she’s in the leadership role, requires a writer to make use of nuance and some very smart narrative “tricks”, which usually we don’t see much in traditional superhero books…

We seem them when the writer has a long term plan for them like Claremont did or Mike Carey who did a good job showing and challenging Rogue as a leader or Cyclops during Second Coming, etc in a book like X-men there are always opportunities to be challenged and in that way develop the characters and show their hability as leaders.

I think Jean could be very interesting as a leader because she´s less pragmatical than Cyclops, Storm or Charles have been as leaders, I could see her tring to hold onto her ideals and then having to adapt part of them to a difficult situation, I think it would be a great story but she needs to be challenged for it.

Yes, I believe most women would find it very flattering. I believe Jean would find it more flattering than most women. But I also believe that Jean would understand that it coloured the way she feels about him and sheÂ’d clearly know the difference between that and actual romantic feelings. And the reason I believe that is because she is lucky enough to have experienced a very different kind of love and there is actually no comparison between those two different types: it's like comparing oranges and wine.

Agreed I think that´s because at first she felt attraction but still choose to stay with Scott.

ThatÂ’s the thingÂ… I think Jean loves being mentally stimulated. She has a brilliant mind with dreams, with abstract and metaphysical considerations, with social and psychological interestsÂ… Logan is not stupid but he just canÂ’t engage meaningfully in these kinds of conversations, because they just donÂ’t interest him. HeÂ’d probably just think sheÂ’s so smart and drool on her intellect, then tell her to go talk to Chuck about it.

Well I see they have different interests for example wolvie is more interested in the warrior way and combat principles but a philosophical debate probably would not get his attention the way it would catch Jean´s and she is mostly a peaceful person who likes to solve problems in a peaceful way so she would be interested to know about the warrior´s way but would not approve of everything. So agree with you completely about it

And while she certainly talks to her friends about it, I think this mental energy is actually a turn on to her and she would want to have these kind of interactions with her significant other.

Agreed

That’s why I said in my reply to Grey Lensman (on #3724) about Jean and Scott: “Those two burn for each other, they have this emotional, intellectual and physical attraction that works like a magnet and pulls them to each other. Something that actually bothered Jean at some point because she felt that loving him was inevitable.”

On AUs, when perhaps Jean is slightly different or hasnÂ’t experience this kind of attraction, I guess it could work? But for 616 Jean? I think sheÂ’d always feel thereÂ’s something really special, really important missing, because even though I donÂ’t think sheÂ’d be comparing Logan to Scott all the time, sheÂ’d compare whatever partner she has to what she wants of a relationship. And I donÂ’t think sheÂ’d be able to dial that need for intellectual stimulation down. She's too passionate for that.
And that’s one of the reasons why it’s so hard for me to see Jean and Logan working as a couple in the long run.

Agreed the relationship she shares with Scott is quite special and even when we have seen them with other people it always feels like they will be together again at some point.

I think itÂ’s more than talking, though. Jean is so complex because even though she has that girl-next-door vibe, even though she’s warm and super approachable, sheÂ’s also a femme fatale of the alluring kind. She should be intimidating af. It takes more than a man who feels the need to claim he’s the best there is all the time. It takes the quiet confidence of a man who is very certain about what he wants and who he is, who is able to understand that hurricane of a woman and stand up to her, not to be antagonistic but not to be pushed over either, you know? A guy who is not afraid of the hard work that this relationship entails because heÂ’s intelligent enough to understand that the rewards more than pay for the energy he puts into it. That requires full commitment and a rare level of intellectual and emotional sophistication: Jean is high maintenance, hyper high reward and it takes both courage and determination to really work for a relationship like this.

Agreed

I think this is why Scott and Jean make a good couple, because they know how to support the strengt of the other and he only has been worried about her in regards to her story with phoenix for what it did to them, not because Jean was exploring her powers.

I think Logan catches it too, he admires her power but also knows it will be his warrior mission to stop her if it goes out of hand and he learned to respect Scott´s leadership and their relationship so he admires her at a distance, accepting her friendship and maybe an intimate relationship but knowing she will always get back to scott, he doesn´t understand them completely but he learned to respect it, I liked how he tried to explain this to Emma and I think it makes perfect sense for his character.

Maybe she tried and she was outvoted on that law as well? ItÂ’s a shame we didnÂ’t get to see it.

Yes it´s a shame, this scene was too important to keep it on the data pages, hopefully Spurrier will show it in a flashback.

Yes! That letter is one of my favourite things ever written about Jean and ScottÂ’s relationship.

Yes, love their wedding issue

Like I said, I have to remember to turn off my brain when I read comic books so I can enjoy them. ItÂ’s so hard, though.

Lol yes sometimes you just have to go with the flow but it´s fun to ask yourself those questions and see some of them answered in the story.

Found it:“In regard to us not having seen any babies, we haven’t seen any babies among like the big X-Men. Now again, that mostly has to do with meta reasons of it being not a great idea for our superheroes to have babies with them a lot of the times, but it also has to do with the fact that they have other stuff they’re doing. But I think that there are people having babies in the background and we did show a baby having been born in Cable.

Although now that I think about it, those two didn’t live on Krakoa, did they? I’m trying to remember if they were back and forth or I think they were weirded out by it. But I think we can believe that babies are happening, but it will be dealt with more directly both in Way of X and elsewhere.”

https://aiptcomics.com/2021/02/08/x-...and-jean-grey/

Thank you, hope we see some advance on this subplot

[Lucyinthesky]

That is good, but it is a Wolverine Anthology not in continuity. She still needs to be made justice.

Agreed, she needs to come back

I'm not sure if writers can justify a 180º turn on characters, at some point they just turn on other characters

Yes, lest hope this doesn´t happen.

Well he said maybe. Hard to say how people gonna behave on Krakoa circumstances.

Yes I guess we will find out in Way of X #3

The problem is that new writers will come and not everyone is good or interested on that

Yes that´s why I think if the original story is good enough even if future writers are not interested, other will be interested in doing something or adding to it.

For me they just didn't thought about it. They talk a lot but not show it.

Agreed maybe that will change.

[Grinning Soul]

I am not saying she should not use her powers, I am saying it would have been good to see her come to that conclusion by her own means and powers always can be challenged in comics, when they are it can become an opportunity to let the characters show their skills without powers.

Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to imply you were saying that. I was just wondering how to go around it, because if the writer doesn’t think about it, it always read a bit meh, because my mind goes to: “why didn’t she just [insert use of her power here]?”

Sometimes, something as simple as “because of ethics” apply. But when the stakes are high, when lives are at risk, ethics tend to go out of the window, right? And while this may create an interesting personal conflict, it’s not a challenge to the leadership role per se.

Anyway, I was trying to think about it. I didn’t have a well-formed opinion. :)

We seem them when the writer has a long term plan for them like Claremont did or Mike Carey who did a good job showing and challenging Rogue as a leader or Cyclops during Second Coming, etc in a book like X-men there are always opportunities to be challenged and in that way develop the characters and show their hability as leaders.

I think Jean could be very interesting as a leader because she's less pragmatical than Cyclops, Storm or Charles have been as leaders, I could see her tring to hold onto her ideals and then having to adapt part of them to a difficult situation, I think it would be a great story but she needs to be challenged for it.

Yes! Jean is less pragmatic for sure. But I think other than the obvious reason (that she’s more idealistic and more of a bleeding heart), I think she’s also a different type of thinker. She’s way more flexible then they are, way more willing to understand the power of hidden forces and influences than they are.

Agreed I think that´s because at first she felt attraction but still choose to stay with Scott.

And I think, regardless of feelings, rationally speaking, it’s really not a difficult choice to make if you think of where you want to be in a couple of months in the future.

Well I see they have different interests for example wolvie is more interested in the warrior way and combat principles but a philosophical debate probably would not get his attention the way it would catch Jean´s and she is mostly a peaceful person who likes to solve problems in a peaceful way so she would be interested to know about the warrior´s way but would not approve of everything. So agree with you completely about it

She’d be intellectually interested about the warrior’s way. I think she’s a person with a certain curiosity about everything. But she certainly wouldn’t relate to it on an emotional level other than the fact it’s important to a dear friend.

Agreed the relationship she shares with Scott is quite special and even when we have seen them with other people it always feels like they will be together again at some point.

Well, it’s - I'll say it very cautiously - "okay" on alternate/pocket realities and when one of them is dead. But I really don’t want them to become an on-again-off-again couple. So if Marvel eventually breaks them up, I want them to remain friends but go their separate ways romantically.

I think this is why Scott and Jean make a good couple, because they know how to support the strengt of the other and he only has been worried about her in regards to her story with phoenix for what it did to them, not because Jean was exploring her powers.

Oh, they have their complicated dynamics there when it comes to her powers. She’s afraid, he’s afraid and they haven’t really try approaching it yet. But they could certainly make it work if they talked about it. I think we’d be going that way when she decided to use the Phoenix uniform and codename, but then The Twelve happened and after she rescues him, Morrison’s run.

It would be something really cool for the new book, though. But I don’t think we’ll get that.

I think Logan catches it too, he admires her power but also knows it will be his warrior mission to stop her if it goes out of hand and he learned to respect Scott´s leadership and their relationship so he admires her at a distance, accepting her friendship and maybe an intimate relationship but knowing she will always get back to scott, he doesn´t understand them completely but he learned to respect it, I liked how he tried to explain this to Emma and I think it makes perfect sense for his character.

I think Logan can actually read Jean and Scott’s relationship really well. I think you’re right, though: understanding is a really strong word, that I suppose only Scott and Jean could actually use.

Yes it´s a shame, this scene was too important to keep it on the data pages, hopefully Spurrier will show it in a flashback.

Fingers crossed, but he already showed the Crucible, so… I’m not sure he’ll go back to the subject.

Yes, love their wedding issue :)

Makes me cry. Every. Time. :D

Lol yes sometimes you just have to go with the flow but it´s fun to ask yourself those questions and see some of them answered in the story.

They usually aren’t, though! :D

Thank you, hope we see some advance on this subplot :)

Well, there’s a baby on the tease about Inferno, right? So… :)

[Lucyinthesky]

Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to imply you were saying that. I was just wondering how to go around it, because if the writer doesn’t think about it, it always read a bit meh, because my mind goes to: “why didn’t she just [insert use of her power here]?”

Agreed I think Orchis could have a lot of anti-mutant powers tecnology or one of the Nimrod sentinels could develop depowering tecnology, things like that are very common in X-men.

Sometimes, something as simple as “because of ethics” apply. But when the stakes are high, when lives are at risk, ethics tend to go out of the window, right? And while this may create an interesting personal conflict, it’s not a challenge to the leadership role per se.Anyway, I was trying to think about it. I didn’t have a well-formed opinion.

I think it could be a case similar to the one the iluminati had during Secret Wars "I want to save my world but will I have to sacrifice other worlds to save mine? or Cyclops during Second Coming "I want to save mutantkind but we are all trapped there with hundreds of sentinels so I will have to put every mutants young and old to fight them off" Things like that are very interesting to see and it helps to know what each character would do in each situation.

Yes! Jean is less pragmatic for sure. But I think other than the obvious reason (that she’s more idealistic and more of a bleeding heart), I think she’s also a different type of thinker. She’s way more flexible then they are, way more willing to understand the power of hidden forces and influences than they are.

Agreed given her experiences as phoenix and a telepath I can see her try different approaches of think outside the box.

And I think, regardless of feelings, rationally speaking, it’s really not a difficult choice to make if you think of where you want to be in a couple of months in the future.

Agreed for much of their story the yearning was bigger on Logan´s side thant Jean´s.

She’d be intellectually interested about the warrior’s way. I think she’s a person with a certain curiosity about everything. But she certainly wouldn’t relate to it on an emotional level other than the fact it’s important to a dear friend.

Agreed it would be interesting to her because it´s important for Logan.

Well, it’s - I'll say it very cautiously - "okay" on alternate/pocket realities and when one of them is dead. But I really don’t want them to become an on-again-off-again couple. So if Marvel eventually breaks them up, I want them to remain friends but go their separate ways romantically.

That would be interesting

Oh, they have their complicated dynamics there when it comes to her powers. She’s afraid, he’s afraid and they haven’t really try approaching it yet. But they could certainly make it work if they talked about it. I think we’d be going that way when she decided to use the Phoenix uniform and codename, but then The Twelve happened and after she rescues him, Morrison’s run.

They definitely need to talk more about their relationship.

It would be something really cool for the new book, though. But I don’t think we’ll get that.

Maybe they don´t but Duggan likes to explore relationships on Uncanny Avengers he tackled Johnny Storm and Rogue, Rogue and Deadpool and Wanda and Brother Vodoo so I can see him try his hand with the classic romance between Jean and Scott.

I think Logan can actually read Jean and Scott’s relationship really well. I think you’re right, though: understanding is a really strong word, that I suppose only Scott and Jean could actually use.

Agreed they would know more than anyone else how it´s.

Fingers crossed, but he already showed the Crucible, so… I’m not sure he’ll go back to the subject.

Given crucible was the one Krakoan concept that bothered him as a writer and Kurt as a character, I would not be surprised to see Kurt tackling it again with a different approach while he develops "The Way".

Makes me cry. Every. Time.

Yes my favorite part was the family reunion and the party, everyone was great there.

They usually aren’t, though!

No but it doesn´t hurt to ask anyway.

Well, there’s a baby on the tease about Inferno, right? So…

I believe that´s Moira as a baby but if she´s not then yes, I am excited to see Hickman approach this part of the story.

[Grinning Soul]

Agreed I think Orchis could have a lot of anti-mutant powers tecnology or one of the Nimrod sentinels could develop depowering tecnology, things like that are very common in X-men.

It wouldn’t be a stretch, considering this technology currently exists in the MU.

I think it could be a case similar to the one the iluminati had during Secret Wars "I want to save my world but will I have to sacrifice other worlds to save mine? or Cyclops during Second Coming "I want to save mutantkind but we are all trapped there with hundreds of sentinels so I will have to put every mutants young and old to fight them off" Things like that are very interesting to see and it helps to know what each character would do in each situation.

She’d probably find a way to sacrifice herself and save everyone, though.

I don’t like the resurrection protocols, but there’s always a bright side to everything, right? They *probably* won’t put Jean back in the WHR for 15 years and then not even use that as a plot for another story for her!

Mmm… I’ve been bitter lately. I’m blaming it on the pandemic! :D

Agreed given her experiences as phoenix and a telepath I can see her try different approaches of think outside the box.

True! But I think it’s just part of her personality as well.

They definitely need to talk more about their relationship.

Maybe they don´t but Duggan likes to explore relationships on Uncanny Avengers he tackled Johnny Storm and Rogue, Rogue and Deadpool and Wanda and Brother Vodoo so I can see him try his hand with the classic romance between Jean and Scott.

I think as long as Jean is still a “shared character” he won’t do much with it. And she left the X-Force team, but I think she still part of the cast of the book and she’ll be appearing there as a mentor to Quentin or a girlfriend to Logan.

I don’t think I need to say I’d prefer if Duggan had exclusive use of her character, though, right? And by exclusive I mean she’s not a “shared character” (pun intended), she’s not part of the main cast of another book, but she can still make appearances on other books like Sage or Emma do.

Agreed they would know more than anyone else how it´s.

Yeah, especially if you consider their rapport. Who could even begin to understand that?

Given crucible was the one Krakoan concept that bothered him as a writer and Kurt as a character, I would not be surprised to see Kurt tackling it again with a different approach while he develops "The Way".

I really hope you’re right about it. The Crucible bothers me a lot too, especially because children are allowed to watch it. Maybe my sensibilities are too fragile, but I can’t help it.

Yes my favorite part was the family reunion and the party, everyone was great there.

I love the whole book, but if I had to pick a favourite part would be Jean dancing with Charles. Their relationship is so special. :)

I believe that´s Moira as a baby but if she´s not then yes, I am excited to see Hickman approach this part of the story.

It could be something that simple indeed. That image is a teaser and the name of the thing is Inferno, so they might just be really just teasing us.

But Jordan D. White said: “but it will be dealt with more directly both in Way of X and elsewhere.” Maybe the “elsewhere” is Inferno. We’ll have to wait and see, I guess. :)

[Lucyinthesky]

It wouldnÂ’t be a stretch, considering this technology currently exists in the MU.

Exactly

SheÂ’d probably find a way to sacrifice herself and save everyone, though.
I donÂ’t like the resurrection protocols, but thereÂ’s always a bright side to everything, right? They *probably* wonÂ’t put Jean back in the WHR for 15 years and then not even use that as a plot for another story for her!
MmmÂ… IÂ’ve been bitter lately. IÂ’m blaming it on the pandemic!

I hope they don´t but that´s another reason to try a different tactic not every problem can be solved by self-sacrifice but Jean is kind of known for that, I remember that scene from X-men Blue when Magneto was mad at Emma and the younger X-men tried to protect her and he gave up after seeing Jean because he knows she would try to sacrifice herself and he was like nah, I got too attached, time to get out XD. But still this tactic is not for every problem.

True! But I think itÂ’s just part of her personality as well.

Agreed

I think as long as Jean is still a “shared character” he won’t do much with it. And she left the X-Force team, but I think she still part of the cast of the book and she’ll be appearing there as a mentor to Quentin or a girlfriend to Logan.

Well it depends if she´s officially with Scott then it´s just natural for him to show them as a couple even if she´s still around for X-force sometimes.

I don’t think I need to say I’d prefer if Duggan had exclusive use of her character, though, right? And by exclusive I mean she’s not a “shared character” (pun intended), she’s not part of the main cast of another book, but she can still make appearances on other books like Sage or Emma do.

Lol yes it would be nice if we knew what´s going on with all that "sharing" but I don´t think it´s bad for her to have appareances in other books, it helps new readers to know her and appreciate her.

Yeah, especially if you consider their rapport. Who could even begin to understand that?

Agreed

I really hope youÂ’re right about it. The Crucible bothers me a lot too, especially because children are allowed to watch it. Maybe my sensibilities are too fragile, but I canÂ’t help it.

It bothered me too and I think Hickman wrote it in a way that should bother people, I hope that by the time Way of X tackles Onslaught crucible will no longer be a thing on Krakoa or at least leaves the decimated mutants out of that option and gives them a better one. Spurrier teased Wanda maybe appearing on Way of X so I hope she says "no more crucible" XD

[QUOTE]I love the whole book, but if I had to pick a favourite part would be Jean dancing with Charles. Their relationship is so special.

That was my favorite part too, it was sweet and it really led us known how much Charles appreciates Jean´s support given the secrets they have shared and their friendship I think he saw her as his potential succesor as leader of the school while Scott took the main X-men team at some point so it would be interesting to know if he´s still sharing secrets with her on Krakoa era. I think he does given Magneto and her conversation after Charles was killed, they talked about how everythign was too fragile and she said she understood, that scene was weird because they seemed to be dueling but mostly they were both worried of Charles not coming back to them and the potential consequences.

I would like to see a little more of Jean and Magneto´s interaction on Krakoa and how different he sees her compared to younger Jean, he was certainly more warm towards her while now when they have to talk about important matters they keep their distance and are a little cold, it´s obvious the people they both care about and the main reason they even talk are Scott and Charles but them themselves are quite distant and I guess it has to be about Xorn but even in that case, Magneto´s projection was there on the issue where she came back to life and I didn´t understood why she was projection a image of Magneto of all people it´s still a mystery to me.

It could be something that simple indeed. That image is a teaser and the name of the thing is Inferno, so they might just be really just teasing us.

But Jordan D. White said: “but it will be dealt with more directly both in Way of X and elsewhere.” Maybe the “elsewhere” is Inferno. We’ll have to wait and see, I guess.

Ok I am getting more excited for INFERNO now.

[Grinning Soul]

I hope they don´t but that´s another reason to try a different tactic not every problem can be solved by self-sacrifice but Jean is kind of known for that, I remember that scene from X-men Blue when Magneto was mad at Emma and the younger X-men tried to protect her and he gave up after seeing Jean because he knows she would try to sacrifice herself and he was like nah, I got too attached, time to get out XD. But still this tactic is not for every problem.

It's certainly not. I think it’s just too tempting for the writers, who are often very reductive when they’re portraying Jean.

Like I said, I was bitter. I’m still working on my relationship with Marvel. Matters of trust, like being able to tell myself “no, they’d never do that” when it comes to *anything* concerning Jean, are still a big issue.

Well it depends if she´s officially with Scott then it´s just natural for him to show them as a couple even if she´s still around for X-force sometimes.

Judging by an interview Duggan gave, I have a feeling he doesn’t feel very comfortable or free to write a “shared character”. This *might* be why he didn’t use Jean much in Cable. It might also be the excuse he gives himself for not having much interest to write the character. Who knows?

Now, for what I understood of the interview, a “shared character” is more than a character who can make a little appearance here and there. For instance, Jean appeared on the last issue of New Mutants, but she’s not part of the regular cast. So, when it comes to New Mutants, she’s not a shared character.

As far as I understand, though, Jean is still part of the regular cast of X-Force, even if the character isn’t part of the team anymore.

If that’s true, Duggan might still feel the same way and he’ll keep Jean’s appearance limited to a very non-committing presence so it doesn’t interfere to whatever is happening in X-Force.

Now, I do *NOT* know if that’s the case. But if it is, it’s worrisome because her role in the X-Force at the moment is just mentor/love interest. While in X-Men she’s the co-leader/reason for the team to exist. So I’d prefer her to be part of the main cast of X-Men exclusively.

She could still make appearances in all the other books, just not as part of the main cast.

Lol yes it would be nice if we knew what´s going on with all that "sharing" but I don´t think it´s bad for her to have appareances in other books, it helps new readers to know her and appreciate her.

At this point, considering all the BS we’ve been through and the stories we were indirectly asked to ignore, I’d be okay if Marvel acted like this never happened.

It bothered me too and I think Hickman wrote it in a way that should bother people,

But judging by the reaction of some fans, it didn’t bother them. Their reaction makes me feel very weird too… I understand fandom is an emotional thing, but it’s like some people will like and defend just about anything…

I mean, people have the right to think and feel whatever they want. It’s just very surprising to me to see some reactions sometimes.

I hope that by the time Way of X tackles Onslaught crucible will no longer be a thing on Krakoa or at least leaves the decimated mutants out of that option and gives them a better one. Spurrier teased Wanda maybe appearing on Way of X so I hope she says "no more crucible" XD

Oh, poor Wanda. That would give the readers who are in Exodus’ cult even more reason to hate her! :D

That was my favorite part too, it was sweet

Confession time: I’ve read that book many times. Sometimes I read it just because I’m having a tough day and I can use some hope. Sometimes I read it just because I’m having a wonderful day and that issue resonates with it. Sometimes, it’s for no particular reason.

Regardless of what motivated me to read it again, if I manage not to cry until I get to that scene, that’s where the floodgates are opened. Every. Time.

But honestly, the whole thing just warms my heart. The boys trying to help Scott with the bow tie and Bobby joking it will be very embarrassing if the bride gets ready before the groom. Elaine worried Jean might trip while walking down the isle, as if a telekinetic mutant would fall on her face on her wedding day!

I live for those little things!

And then, the big things, of course, which are seen through Charles’ perspective and feelings… It reads so real. I can’t. It’s too much for my little heart. :)

What makes it great, I think, it’s because it’s not just about Scott and Jean, but also all the X-Men around them and how that wedding is significant too all of them. It’s beautiful. :)

and it really led us known how much Charles appreciates Jean´s support given the secrets they have shared and their friendship I think he saw her as his potential succesor as leader of the school while Scott took the main X-men team at some point so it would be interesting to know if he´s still sharing secrets with her on Krakoa era.

I think pre-Krakoan, when concerns about death were more justifiable, Charles saw both Jean and Scott as his heirs. And the fact they were so important to each other made the question of leadership irrelevant: he knew that even if one was seen as *the* leader, the other would be the person behind the crown, so-to-speak.

Scott and Jean aren’t just emotionally very close. They’re intellectually very close as well, even though (and perhaps because) their ways of thinking are so distinct: their rational/emotional/pragmatic/idealistic dynamics really bring up the best of them in both of them.

It’s like Logan wrote in his letter to them: "(...) each one makes the whole stronger than the parts".

I think he does given Magneto and her conversation after Charles was killed, they talked about how everythign was too fragile and she said she understood, that scene was weird because they seemed to be dueling but mostly they were both worried of Charles not coming back to them and the potential consequences.

Mmm… Post Krakoan, because of what Moira did to Charles, all the secrets and the existence of the protocols, I don’t think Charles still sees her as his heir. Or Scott.

And especially now that they are reforming the X-Men.

I’d like to point out, though, that I think Charles is actually happy that Jean and Scott are getting the X-Men back together. I think deep, deep down, Moira didn’t break him completely and he feels proud of them and that fact that something of his old dream still lives in their hearts.

I would like to see a little more of Jean and Magneto´s interaction on Krakoa and how different he sees her compared to younger Jean, he was certainly more warm towards her while now when they have to talk about important matters they keep their distance and are a little cold, it´s obvious the people they both care about and the main reason they even talk are Scott and Charles but them themselves are quite distant and I guess it has to be about Xorn but even in that case, Magneto´s projection was there on the issue where she came back to life and I didn´t understood why she was projection a image of Magneto of all people it´s still a mystery to me.

I don’t think Xorn has much to do with it. I think Magneto regressed in many ways and adult Jean has no interest in interacting with him on a personal level, because she knows what he stands for. And he probably doesn’t want to interact much with her because he knows she’s potentially dangerous when it comes to his own resolution about Krakoa as a concept and the secrets he’s keeping.

Ok I am getting more excited for INFERNO now.

I’m trying to remain neutral but my first instinct was to be afraid of it.