Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Lucyinthesky]

ThatÂ’s what IÂ’ll be paying close attention to. IÂ’m not so sure the honeymoon period will be over for some of them, because I donÂ’t think itÂ’s occurring naturally.

On this Hickman stories are all the same, it´s not powers who keep secrets and then reveal them, it´s the choice of the characters involved. He like to deconstruct characters but usually to make them aware of the problem so they can work on it.

Well, itÂ’s more than looks. The goal was to re-create EmmaÂ’s telepathy, but to have it multiplied thousands of times in a hive-mind that worked like one, in order to boost their ability to influence the minds of everyone.Like I said: identical twins, triplets, etc are natural occurring clones. But theyÂ’re actual clones.

And thatÂ’s why we had to have seen that discussion about clones. Because using the mere definition of “clones” is very tricky.

I don´t think it´s trickly a clone is a genetic copy of another person while a identical twin can share some genetic aspects but their dna has some variants, this is the case of the 5 in one.

Yes, Madelyne is a whole different discussion: she would not have been viable if it wasn’t for a part of Jean’s soul/essence/memories/whatever. SheÂ’s more than a copy of JeanÂ’s body with an entire existence of her own. In other words, she’s *more* than a clone.

I don´t think she´s more than a clonse, genetically speaking she´s Jean´s clone because she shares her genetic make up, which was Sinister´s objective since he wanted the heir of Jean and Scott, the main difference is that she shared Jean´s sould at some point, still this just makes it clear this particular law is really about keeping Maddie out.

That would be true if the “no clones allowed” had been a more nuanced decision. But we just donÂ’t know.

I am really not expecting Logan to follow this particular rule when it comes to Gabby that´s all I am saying neither I think Charles would not help in her particular case, the problem is this rule so far has only affected Madelyne situation.

I didnÂ’t know if I was supposed to laugh or cry when I read that, my friend. But boy, oh, boy! Aren’t you right about that!

Yes I hope Duggan X-men title will help on that front now that the worldbuilding is done I am ready to see the pov of everybody in a daily basis when it comes to their relationship with the rest of the world and with Krakoa and were will they stand when the crisis happens.

Fingers crossed!

So far I am loving the images we saw so yes, they definitely have their own placen now.

]And the fact that *after* those attacks, after almost losing his son again, heÂ’s *still* relaxed? IÂ’m sorry, thatÂ’s not Scott at his normal. Something external has to be affecting him or he got a few screws lose when he was resurrected.

I don´t think Nathan was particulary hurt on any of those attacks and Jean and him went to help him during X of Swords the moment he asked for help, that was very in character for them, the only time he was really in danger was after he was possesed by the King in Black and still he was left unharmed and SWORD made sure he was alright.

That said, I would not put it past Hickman to reveal something is affecting them appart from the return of Onslaught in way of X but we still don´t see what´s it exactly.

Oh my god! Thanks so much for sharing! IÂ’d forgotten about those panels! ThereÂ’s actually shady Krakoan tea in the story!

Seriously: it really made me laugh. Thanks, my friend!

I am happy you liked it, this made me lol too.

As far as I remember, David has, at least two external minds inside his (Jemail and Marci). Meaning, those people were never one of his alters, but people who had lives and whose psyche’s were absorbed by David.

If David tried absorbing Onslaught or did that by accident, it would *certainly* come back to bite them all later. But it could diffuse the bomb for a while and it would allow that story to remain contained in Way of X.

Agreed but that would only be a temporal solution, they will need to contain him in some other way.

[Phoenixx9]

I sort of look at the costumes, art and power signature/displays like a chicken dinner: it may not be the best chicken dinner I ever had, but I can still enjoy it, lol!

[Grinning Soul]

On this Hickman stories are all the same, it´s not powers who keep secrets and then reveal them, it´s the choice of the characters involved. He like to deconstruct characters but usually to make them aware of the problem so they can work on it.

I can’t really judge, so I’ll take your word for it. :)

I don´t think it´s trickly a clone is a genetic copy of another person while a identical twin can share some genetic aspects but their dna has some variants, this is the case of the 5 in one.

So a clone would need to 100% identical? Scientifically speaking, I’m not sure that actually exists. Small mutations happen during development, so even a clone will present some genetic variance as the cells multiply. Exactly like natural twins…

I don´t think she´s more than a clonse, genetically speaking she´s Jean´s clone because she shares her genetic make up, which was Sinister´s objective since he wanted the heir of Jean and Scott, the main difference is that she shared Jean´s sould at some point, still this just makes it clear this particular law is really about keeping Maddie out.

That’s what I meant: Madelyine’s body was like an empty shell. It was a fragment of the Phoenix, containing Jean’s soul/essence/memories/whatever-it-was that animated it. In this sense, she’s different than the other clones in the MU.

I am really not expecting Logan to follow this particular rule when it comes to Gabby that´s all I am saying neither I think Charles would not help in her particular case, the problem is this rule so far has only affected Madelyne situation.

I do hope they don’t kill Gaby, but if it happens it will be a big problem indeed.

Yes I hope Duggan X-men title will help on that front now that the worldbuilding is done I am ready to see the pov of everybody in a daily basis when it comes to their relationship with the rest of the world and with Krakoa and were will they stand when the crisis happens.

I hope so too. But I think the focus will be their missions and some personal stuff that is not super connected to Krakoa’s society. I hope I’m wrong, though.

So far I am loving the images we saw so yes, they definitely have their own placen now.

Wait… You lost me… :D You’re talking about the tree house/pod thingies?

I don´t think Nathan was particulary hurt on any of those attacks and Jean and him went to help him during X of Swords the moment he asked for help, that was very in character for them, the only time he was really in danger was after he was possesed by the King in Black and still he was left unharmed and SWORD made sure he was alright.

X of Swords was a really close call. Nathan called them in a moment of “great desperation”. But Scott’s okay now. Move along. Nothing to see here.

I’m telling you: can I have some of that tea, please? I’m so tired of this pandemic. I could really use it. :D

That said, I would not put it past Hickman to reveal something is affecting them appart from the return of Onslaught in way of X but we still don´t see what´s it exactly.

I have about 10 theories. I wish I was joking. I’m really not.

I am happy you liked it, this made me lol too.

Honestly: I loved it! :D

I have such a weird sense of humour. I literally laughed out loud when I saw your post! :D

Agreed but that would only be a temporal solution, they will need to contain him in some other way.

For sure. I’d even say that having David absorbing Onslaught would probably be worst than dealing with Onslaught by himself. But it allows such a big enemy to be restricted into a book with a smaller cast.

[Lucyinthesky]

I canÂ’t really judge, so IÂ’ll take your word for it.

Hickman tends to repeat some situations but applied to different characters, with Reed it was " he became so focused on solving everything he began to mess with the multiverse so the celestial had to get there to kill him off" if it wasn´t for Adult Frankin he would not have survived this one, with the Iluminati it was "How do you stop the multiverse from crashing when you are lying to everybody around you who could help you get a different perspective" and with the X-men I don´t have the full picture yet but he´s bassically bringing all their stories to the 11 level so I am not quite sure what will happen because there are too many situations going on but I am interested in how this all will end.

So a clone would need to 100% identical? Scientifically speaking, Im not sure that actually exists. Small mutations happen during development, so even a clone will present some genetic variance as the cells multiply. Exactly like natural twinsÂ…

Genetically speaking yes: an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical while Identical twins have the same DNA as each other, but different from their parents. A clone, however, only has one parent and has exactly the same DNA as that parent.

That’s what I meant: MadelyineÂ’s body was like an empty shell. It was a fragment of the Phoenix, containing JeanÂ’s soul/essence/memories/whatever-it-was that animated it. In this sense, sheÂ’s different than the other clones in the MU.

But Maddie wasn´t just an empty shell she had motivations and a personality of her own, I saw that moment just like Jean possesing her for a while to say goodbye to Scott but Madelyne herself is certainly her own person, this pretty much has been the central fight for her character.

I do hope they donÂ’t kill Gaby, but if it happens it will be a big problem indeed.

I am quite sure she already has her own body waiting the case of something happening to her.

I hope so too. But I think the focus will be their missions and some personal stuff that is not super connected to KrakoaÂ’s society. I hope IÂ’m wrong, though.

I will wait to see Duggan´s interview post Gala because I get the sense right now he´s being wary of revealing his plot, I think they will have missions that affect the entire world, they will help humans and mutants and maybe have some confrontations with Orchis but Krakoa is still connected to them because their friends and family still live there so whatever affects Krakoa, especially if it falls into a crisis, will affect them too. I am actually expecting Lorna to be present during Magneto´s trial and that alone means Duggan will have to involve Krakoa as a subplot for the title.

WaitÂ… You lost me… YouÂ’re talking about the tree house/pod thingies?

Yes it looks like they live on New York now, the edifice in which they are living looks like the interior of a Krakoa embassy but this one will serve as their main quarters for this team of X-men.

X of Swords was a really close call. Nathan called them in a moment of “great desperation”. But Scott’s okay now. Move along. Nothing to see here.

IÂ’m telling you: can I have some of that tea, please? IÂ’m so tired of this pandemic. I could really use it.

Scott tried to keep Cable out of the tournament at all, he bassically said to him, give me the sword I have got this but Cable was like "Dad please I killed my older self and brought you back to life with time travel, let me take care of this and they bassically let him know he could call them any time. I get Scott loves his Son but he´s not exactly an overprotective parent or at least he never seemed like one.

I have about 10 theories. I wish I was joking. IÂ’m really not.

I would like to know them

Honestly: I loved it!

I have such a weird sense of humour. I literally laughed out loud when I saw your post!

Everytime you talk about Scott drinking the tea this image gets into my mind and makes me laugh so I had to share it, I am glad you enjoy it as well.

For sure. IÂ’d even say that having David absorbing Onslaught would probably be worst than dealing with Onslaught by himself. But it allows such a big enemy to be restricted into a book with a smaller cast.

I think Way of X will have consequences in other books, just not the event or super hero kind of ones, morel like the ideals, heart and mind way, like asking themselves "Why I am here really and how can I approach my new found inmortality and habilities with responsibility, etc. Now add Spurrier confirmed Wanda was going to appear at some point so that means David and she will officially meet, that´s an event unto itself imo, poor Kurt will have so many things to complain about to Charles and Erik flaws as parents.

[Grinning Soul]

Hickman tends to repeat some situations but applied to different characters, with Reed it was " he became so focused on solving everything he began to mess with the multiverse so the celestial had to get there to kill him off" if it wasn´t for Adult Frankin he would not have survived this one, with the Iluminati it was "How do you stop the multiverse from crashing when you are lying to everybody around you who could help you get a different perspective" and with the X-men I don´t have the full picture yet but he´s bassically bringing all their stories to the 11 level so I am not quite sure what will happen because there are too many situations going on but I am interested in how this all will end.

I have no idea where this is going either... None.

Genetically speaking yes: an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical while Identical twins have the same DNA as each other, but different from their parents. A clone, however, only has one parent and has exactly the same DNA as that parent.

But that's the thing: most clones don't pop-out of an oven at the age which they're supposed to be. They're grown from a single cell that multiplies several times. And this process leads to small mutations that result in an individual who is not a 100% match, genetically speaking, to the parent DNA.

But Maddie wasn´t just an empty shell she had motivations and a personality of her own, I saw that moment just like Jean possesing her for a while to say goodbye to Scott but Madelyne herself is certainly her own person, this pretty much has been the central fight for her character.

No, no… Madelyne wasn't an empty shell. Her body was. Sinister had a perfect adult body of Jean Grey, but the body wouldn’t “wake up”. In this sense, it was an empty shell.

It took the fragment of the Phoenix, carrying Jean’s soul/essence/memories, to animate that body and then Madelyne “woke up”. And then Sinister heavily influenced her mind, giving her a false history, propping her to fall for Scott so to produce a child with him, because that was Sinister’s goal back then: getting the genetic offspring of Jean and Scott.

When did Jean possesed Madelyne, though? Jean didn’t even have her telepathy when Madelyne was alive…

I am quite sure she already has her own body waiting the case of something happening to her.

I don’t really see why there would be a body of her ready, in case she died…

I will wait to see Duggan´s interview post Gala because I get the sense right now he´s being wary of revealing his plot, I think they will have missions that affect the entire world, they will help humans and mutants and maybe have some confrontations with Orchis but Krakoa is still connected to them because their friends and family still live there so whatever affects Krakoa, especially if it falls into a crisis, will affect them too. I am actually expecting Lorna to be present during Magneto´s trial and that alone means Duggan will have to involve Krakoa as a subplot for the title.

I only have a feeling about the new book and I think it’s going to be mostly a separate story, except for the bigger events like X of Swords. It’s really just a feeling, though. I can’t justify it.

Yes it looks like they live on New York now, the edifice in which they are living looks like the interior of a Krakoa embassy but this one will serve as their main quarters for this team of X-men.

So I guess you’re not talking about the pod thingies. People were speculating it will be the team’s headquarters.

Scott tried to keep Cable out of the tournament at all, he bassically said to him, give me the sword I have got this but Cable was like "Dad please I killed my older self and brought you back to life with time travel, let me take care of this and they bassically let him know he could call them any time. I get Scott loves his Son but he´s not exactly an overprotective parent or at least he never seemed like one.

Yeah, but then Scott had that Krakoan smile plastered on his face as his sent his soon to the tournament. Really. It’s… weird.

I would like to know them :)

I’ll write about them tomorrow on the other thread, okay? This one is busier. :)

Everytime you talk about Scott drinking the tea this image gets into my mind and makes me laugh so I had to share it, I am glad you enjoy it as well.

Yeah, the reference to tea first came to me because certain tribes do use psychoactive teas in their sacred practices. Basically, their shammans/priests/initiates get high as a mean to experience heightened spiritual awareness. I honestly do think those practises are to be respected.

Now, because I have this weird sense of humour and because sometimes I have the feeling Scott is high, I started talking about his drinking a special Krakoa tea, ‘cause, you know, pot is just too human! :D

But then you showed that panel in which we see there *is* actually a Krakoa tea (which I had totally forgotten) and I just couldn’t believe it: it was too precious! :D

I think Way of X will have consequences in other books, just not the event or super hero kind of ones, morel like the ideals, heart and mind way, like asking themselves "Why I am here really and how can I approach my new found inmortality and habilities with responsibility, etc. Now add Spurrier confirmed Wanda was going to appear at some point so that means David and she will officially meet, that´s an event unto itself imo, poor Kurt will have so many things to complain about to Charles and Erik flaws as parents.

I think Way of X will appear in other books because the writers have been trying to reference what is happening on the other titles. So how it will influence, though? We’ll have to see.

Interesting that Wanda will appear, though. I’m glad David will be there, because he’ll probably not be the one pointing fingers at her. If anything, I expect him to be okay with Wanda, actually. But, yeah, poor Kurt will be busy with all that mess. :)

[Rang10]

At this point I'm sure some writers and artists are trolling fans, but whatever. I hate the dress,but if it's here to stay I at least hope they give Jean more focus. It feels like she's barely done anything in this era. Also I hope they redesign the gloves and the mask

If she get some focus it is at least Something to compensate. I think it is pure trolling, remember Hickman and Duggan are huge Emma fans

[Devaishwarya]

Given his status in the industry...Claremont is probably the grand-father of the "Rinse and Repeat" plot-tropes.
But generally speaking all writers do that...re-use plot elements and situations...off and on, at many points in their careers.

[Harpsikord]

If she get some focus it is at least Something to compensate. I think it is pure trolling, remember Hickman and Duggan are huge Emma fans

Oh my god, are you serious?

Creators can like all sorts of characters. We know who Hickman's top 5 is but he made plenty of use of Jean, and we have no idea who Duggan's favorite characters are other than that he's fond of Emma, Kate, and Rogue. He's writing a team book, I'm sure that Jean will get just as much focus as the rest of the cast otherwise she wouldn't be there.

Just being an Emma fan doesn't mean that you hate Jean Grey. Holy hell.

[Devaishwarya]

Exactatiously.
Unlike the readership fan-base, writers are generally fans of more than a few characters, even if they have their personal faves.

[Lucyinthesky]

I have no idea where this is going either... None.

Me neither but it´s fun to speculate.

But that's the thing: most clones don't pop-out of an oven at the age which they're supposed to be. They're grown from a single cell that multiplies several times. And this process leads to small mutations that result in an individual who is not a 100% match, genetically speaking, to the parent DNA.

Yes but still it´s a copy of the main parent DNA, those variants can be like "the clone ages way too quikly or they develop some kind of sickness, while the twin children are a result of the mix with two parents DNA and some variants between each other. Still I don´t think the writers are seeing this on a biological level, this rule looks to me more like a way to keep Maddie dead and to stop the speculation of the ressurrected people just being clones of the original.

No, no… Madelyne wasn't an empty shell. Her body was. Sinister had a perfect adult body of Jean Grey, but the body wouldn’t “wake up”. In this sense, it was an empty shell.
It took the fragment of the Phoenix, carrying JeanÂ’s soul/essence/memories, to animate that body and then Madelyne “woke up”. And then Sinister heavily influenced her mind, giving her a false history, propping her to fall for Scott so to produce a child with him, because that was SinisterÂ’s goal back then: getting the genetic offspring of Jean and Scott.

So they bassically share the same soul? this would explain why JDW said Jean and Maddie are the same person and so they can´t get her back given she would be a double of her which is banned on Krakoa and that would also explain the law, because as far as we know, Gabby and Laura don´t have the same soul, neither do the Cuckoos.

When did Jean possesed Madelyne, though? Jean didn’t even have her telepathy when Madelyne was alive…

I misunderstood, took that moment when Jean say goodbye to Scott with Maddi´s body but this obviously was not the case, I have not read this story in quite a while.

I donÂ’t really see why there would be a body of her ready, in case she diedÂ…

She´s an X-man and the daughter of Wolverine and Charles always has been partial to his X-men. So for imo there´s no doubt there´s a body for her.

I only have a feeling about the new book and I think itÂ’s going to be mostly a separate story, except for the bigger events like X of Swords. ItÂ’s really just a feeling, though. I canÂ’t justify it.

Agreed but I still expect this to show the characters reaction to events in other books, that´s how Duggan wrote the Avengers, he addressed the characters past story as well as events happening elsewhere so I think this will keep being a thing with the main X-men team.

So I guess youÂ’re not talking about the pod thingies. People were speculating it will be the teamÂ’s headquarters.

No, I was talking about the characters new quarters from the X-men #1 trailer

Yeah, but then Scott had that Krakoan smile plastered on his face as his sent his soon to the tournament. Really. ItÂ’sÂ… weird.

Well I think that was just the art, sometimes it doesn´t quite matches what the characters are saying.

IÂ’ll write about them tomorrow on the other thread, okay? This one is busier.

Thank you, I will look them over.

Yeah, the reference to tea first came to me because certain tribes do use psychoactive teas in their sacred practices. Basically, their shammans/priests/initiates get high as a mean to experience heightened spiritual awareness. I honestly do think those practises are to be respected.

Yes some comunities in my country still practice it but they use it mostly for healing or when they have to run in the desert and need to compensate for the lack of water and food on their travel, they are of the oppinion outsiders don´t really know how to use them but it has become quite the tourist attraction so people still come to try them out.

Now, because I have this weird sense of humour and because sometimes I have the feeling Scott is high, I started talking about his drinking a special Krakoa tea, ‘cause, you know, pot is just too human!

But then you showed that panel in which we see there *is* actually a Krakoa tea (which I had totally forgotten) and I just couldn’t believe it: it was too precious!

Yes I remembered that scene and was like I guess Magneto is sharing his tea with Scott now.

I think Way of X will appear in other books because the writers have been trying to reference what is happening on the other titles. So how it will influence, though? WeÂ’ll have to see.

Right now the books are quite connected so yes, I expect them to address way of X but maybe until the Onslaught situation is solved.

Interesting that Wanda will appear, though. I’m glad David will be there, because he’ll probably not be the one pointing fingers at her. If anything, I expect him to be okay with Wanda, actually. But, yeah, poor Kurt will be busy with all that mess.

I don´t think Kurt has any problem with Wanda, more like I can see him going all "Stop trying to take over the world and come here and give your children a hug right now" and David and her have a weird link in that them both created something they thougt would make their father happy when it was quite the opposite in both cases.

[Rang10]

Oh my god, are you serious?

Creators can like all sorts of characters. We know who Hickman's top 5 is but he made plenty of use of Jean, and we have no idea who Duggan's favorite characters are other than that he's fond of Emma, Kate, and Rogue. He's writing a team book, I'm sure that Jean will get just as much focus as the rest of the cast otherwise she wouldn't be there.

Just being an Emma fan doesn't mean that you hate Jean Grey. Holy hell.

Of course people can like more than one character. I'm not sure this is the case of Hickman and Duggan. They really like to daunt Jean Grey fans because of the dress.
meanwhile Emma is always with lots of new costumes, being the star of her book and having a huge role on Krakoa.

Impossible not notice the writers bias

[juan678]

line it is drawn

[Phoenixx9]

line it is drawn

What is this from?!

[juan678]

What is this from?!

https://www.cbr.com/loki-time-travel...ments-gallery/

[Lucyinthesky]

https://www.cbr.com/loki-time-travel...ments-gallery/

Thank you Juan

I get the feeling Loki doesn´t like Spidey