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  1. #4606
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    He's talking about Jean pre-Phoenix in her entirety, not just the beginning(which still isn't true as in issue #1 she's telekinetically twirling Beast, the heaviest of the bunch, with no sweat)...Jean definitely grew over the years(she's always growing) bit she was never the weakest

    My point was his characterization re: Jean in X-Men #28 DID show growth...but unfortunately through the following eras he continues to underestimate Jean.

    The end of their relationship during and after Morrison's run made me re-evaluate it...and look beyond just the status quo I took at face value(the X-Men's premiere married couple) and instead how they were actually speaking to and about each other...and sometimes it felt as if Jean was carrying more than her share of the relationship...along with the high frequency of him projecting his insecurities onto her.

    Not trying to change anyone else's mind, but he did it in the O5 days, in the ANAD/Phoenix days, in the X-Factor days, in the Blue/Gold era days, post-OZT, in Morrison's run...just...for me, on a whole, it was revelatory
    The growth that he showed and then disappeared is, unfortunately, a problem that you often get when the writers decide to ignore continuity... *sigh* It is frustrating, but what can we do?

    I'm very reticent to judge anything Scott did after the possession by Apocalypse, though, because I don't think it's fair unless we try to understand it through a completely different lens. Jean herself told Emma when she found out about the affair that Scott was dealing with a trauma he has never dealt before.

    I'm aware it may sound like I'm trying to excuse him. But I'm not. If you're interested, have a look at the effects of PTSD and how devastating it can be on someone's life. It manifests in many different ways, but it shatters the person inside, it changes the way they perceive the world and even their thought pattern. The road to recovery is very long and often very painful.

    I'm not trying to convince you either. I'm just trying to show you a different perspective. If it doesn't make sense to you, it's okay. Thanks for taking the time to reply. :)

  2. #4607
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I just want to clarify it wasn't my first contact with the X-men. I've been reading X-men since 1992 when I was 10 years old. I started with the 90s (cartoon was the gateway) and quickly went into the back issues. I fell off around 1996 and came back at 1998 but the X-men was just so-so then. It was Morrison's run that made me feel excited for X-men again. I loved every issue something that I cannot say about any other X-men run. It was just exciting. I still get excited when I read it again because it takes me back to early 2000s. I just thought the Morrison run was a quality product and for me it eclipsed the original Claremont run - though of course I still love the Claremont run.

    The affair stuff did bother me because I grew up evangelical Christian, however it is something that I've come to accept. Cheating is rather normal even if it is not a good thing. I was sad at first as a Scott and Jean fan so I do understand fans who didn't like that part. However the X-men is a soap opera and I accept that relationship drama will always be in the mix or something that may be at play.

    Plus I was able to look past it because I found the story so interesting.

    Also, I love what you add here to the discussions and I am glad that we can have civil discussions about things that we disagree. I wish more people were able to do that.
    Cheating isn't good relationship drama. For me it means that the chaarcters shouldnt be together and majority of fandom think the same too.
    Cheating is a abusive and unhealth , I don't relate to it not even a bit. I see some people saying it makes Scott human and relatable. Reatable part says more about the person, human? maybe but make them a complete A-hole

  3. #4608
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I liked Scott and Emma as written by Morrison yes. Morrison made Scott a little less uptight and their Emma was very fun... the best version of her character imo. Their version of Jean is also my favorite. I even liked Scott and Emma under Whedon though I felt Whedon redid Morrison's story with Scott - he started uptight and became less so through the run. Whedon's Emma was too cold and "ice queen" for my tastes.

    It was the Brubaker/Fraction run that really divided me on Scott and Emma and then of course the Bendis era. At that point I had enough.
    100% with you here...on everything.
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  4. #4609
    Incredible Member rhaenylis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Even if it wasn't your first run, I suppose it would be fair to say it was the first one who really excited you, right? I guess the effect is the same (for a person who started during Morrison's run but didn't really like it, they probably didn't kept reading and maybe they only got back and got hooked during Fraction's run or something). Sorry I didn't express it more clearly.

    Look, I think cheating is always wrong, because even if the romantic feelings are over, the other person will most likely still get hurt and I think it hurts the person who cheats too (in a different way). But it's not the cheating that bothers me. It's the abuse, it's the preying on someone who is clearly dealing with a lot of trauma, depression, super low self-esteem and very little sense of self. Just because the victim is a male and society doesn't recognise abuse as readily, it doesn't make it any less atrocious. If Scott was a woman and the telepath who was "treating" him was a man, fans would have no problem calling the telepath a rapist. Heck, I heard people calling Xavier a rapist for much, much, much less than that.

    But that's not my only issue with his run. The list is bigger and I don't want to go into it. I just think I should point this out because I'm very vocal about how much I love Jean and Scott as a couple and it might give people the wrong idea. But really: the affair is not my only issue with the run.

    As for discussion about things we disagree... I love it. As long as people are respectful, I like it as much as when people agree. Even if I don't change my mind, I honestly take what the posters are saying into consideration and it often enriches my perspective. At the very least, it challenges me to re-evaluate my opinions and I think it's a wonderful thing. If we never do it, we never grow, right? I understand that discussions about fictional characters and stories won't have a direct impact in my life, but it helps training my brain to be more flexible and that does impact my life directly.

    So I'm really grateful to all of you, guys (who enjoy engaging in these discussions), for the opportunity.
    You took the words out of my mouth
    Scott suffered quite a bit of victim-blaming from the fandom
    Blamed for having ptsd
    Blamed for being mind raped

  5. #4610
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Cheating isn't good relationship drama. For me it means that the chaarcters shouldnt be together and majority of fandom think the same too.
    Cheating is a abusive and unhealth , I don't relate to it not even a bit. I see some people saying it makes Scott human and relatable. Reatable part says more about the person, human? maybe but make them a complete A-hole
    We actually agree here for the most part, but again it is something that happens with a lot of regularity and it is definitely a trope in soap operas .. and almost all of fiction if we are to be honest. On soaps major couples cheat and come back together almost like it never happen...real life is usually messy but I know many couples who remained together after someone cheated.

    As for relatability I recall JDW saying it made Scott more relatable. It is because it makes him imperfect. Humans and mutants make bad choices and make mistakes. People expect men to cheat but lets be honest people of all genders cheat.

    It was a hard pill to swallow seeing Jean back with Cyclops because of all the nasty comments/thoughts while she was dead but I rationalize it because Jean was in higher plane for so long and Scott was even dead too so after they found each other again all the petty stuff seemed so small. They were happy that they had another chance and in the Krakoa era they get to be one big happy family -including Logan!

  6. #4611
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    I rationalize it as rampant, cancerous nostalgia lol.

  7. #4612
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    We actually agree here for the most part, but again it is something that happens with a lot of regularity and it is definitely a trope in soap operas .. and almost all of fiction if we are to be honest. On soaps major couples cheat and come back together almost like it never happen...real life is usually messy but I know many couples who remained together after someone cheated.

    As for relatability I recall JDW saying it made Scott more relatable. It is because it makes him imperfect. Humans and mutants make bad choices and make mistakes. People expect men to cheat but lets be honest people of all genders cheat.

    It was a hard pill to swallow seeing Jean back with Cyclops because of all the nasty comments/thoughts while she was dead but I rationalize it because Jean was in higher plane for so long and Scott was even dead too so after they found each other again all the petty stuff seemed so small. They were happy that they had another chance and in the Krakoa era they get to be one big happy family -including Logan!
    I watch brazilian soap operas because of my mother and watched some mexican because of aunt. But I'm not sure about cheating that often. Most of times it is a villain plan that drug the person and put them to sleep semi nakes to trick them to have been sleeping with them. Or the villain steals a kiss from the person
    Cheating is too much of a deal breaker lately to be used so casually.

    Well people can be imperfect and not just cheat. Scott was already full of imperfection, remember Maddy? So for me this relatability is BS

    It's not petty, Scott was abusive and cheated on her. Jean has all the right to not want to be back to the same old again. Any woman on her position would just enjoy single life
    Logan isn't family, let's stop pretending it. His family is Daken, Gaby and Laura that he barely even interacted. he even has a japanese family.
    Last edited by Rang10; 06-18-2021 at 08:35 PM.

  8. #4613
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhaenylis View Post
    You took the words out of my mouth
    Scott suffered quite a bit of victim-blaming from the fandom
    Blamed for having ptsd
    Blamed for being mind raped
    Thanks for replying.

    You see, I've talked quite a lot about it recently and I don't want to go back to it, but, for the sake of fairness, I want to make two points again:

    1) I'm not bashing Emma. She was dealing with her own share of trauma and, in a way, reverting back to old habits of manipulation and power play. That being said, while those are mitigating factors, her behaviour was abusive.

    2) Scott doesn't present some of the classic symptoms of PTSD, but some people who suffer from it don't. That's a guy who is able to (almost) completely block the pain of losing Jean (as seen in X-Men #129), who stuffed the Void inside his mind and we never heard of it again. He has written the book on repression.

    But there are some tell-tale signs there for anyone who is willing to: a) don't read Morrison's run in isolation, but consider what came shortly before it. b) understand that Morrison's run is *not* presented from the perspective of a reliable 3rd-person narrator, but from the perspective of the characters: what they're saying isn't necessarily factual, it's the way they experience/interpret the reality around them and, sometimes, they're even lying to others or themselves. That means we can't take what the characters are saying literally, especially if we're cherry picking what supports our views and ignoring a lot of other things.

    And that's it for me, for now. :)

  9. #4614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    I watch brazilian soap operas because of my mother and watched some mexican because of aunt. But I'm not sure about cheating that often. Most of times it is a villain plan that drug the person and put them to sleep semi nakes to trick them to have been sleeping with them. Or the villain steals a kiss from the person
    Cheating is too much of a deal breaker lately to be used so casually.

    Well people can be imperfect and not just cheat. Scott was already full of imperfection, remember Maddy? So for me this relatability is BS

    It's not petty, Scott was abusive and cheated on her. Jean has all the right to not want to be back to the same old again. Any woman on her position would just enjoy single life
    Logan isn't family, let's stop pretending it. His family is Daken, Gaby and Laura that he barely even interacted. he even has a japanese family.
    Jean killed 5 billion people, so what’s a little adultery there? In fact most people would leave murderers, so it’s ridiculous to make Jean some paragon of virtue and Scott a villain. People are just projecting their own personal trauma onto these characters.

  10. #4615
    Astonishing Member 5cents's Avatar
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    Sorry if I'm late but I'm trying to understand why they like this idea so much? If this was true shouldn't they of just had Jean stayed in the skirt up till now?

    And a secret: that’s why she’s dressed in this costume. This is the costume that she put on when she rejected the Phoenix.
    First X-Lady

  11. #4616
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I think the only one who gets a body ready on regular basis is Proteus and, since I believe his body is actually a clone of Xavier’s there’s always one of Xavier’s body ready. But let’s say both Apocalypse and Charles always have bodies ready for their ressurection (‘cause I’m too lazzy to go check :P), that would probably still mean Gabby doesn’t have a body ready for her.
    You may be right but I hope Gabby getīs back to life, it will be interesting to see how much the "clone ban" means in practice because truly I donīt see Logan or Laura stopping until seeing her back.

    So… I don’t think I read that on any of Duggan’s actual interviews, but I read someone commenting about it. It could be the poster’s wishful thinking or it could be that they saw an interview that I didn’t
    .

    From what I have seen he doesnīt often focus in just one character, more like he changes characterīs povs between scenes and itīs a nice way to explore their internal thoughts which I think has been lacking during this era. I am very curious to know what they want to do as X-men and how they plan to make both mutants humans protected by them

    Nah. I’m afraid he’ll start babbling about his life, his dream, his happiness and his belief that he discovered the concept of Carpe Diem. :P
    Lol to be fair, I think he has earned it, let Scott smile and be happy for once, it never last so itīs nice to see him smile once in a while.

    I’ll take Mag’s booze instead.
    ĄĄEnjoy!!

    Sorry for taking so long but itīs nice to see the threat so active, I loved Jean in Planet Size, would have not mind to see more interaction between her and Ororo but she was great there.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 06-19-2021 at 02:50 PM.
    "To the X-men then, who donīt die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  12. #4617
    Astonishing Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5cents View Post
    Sorry if I'm late but I'm trying to understand why they like this idea so much? If this was true shouldn't they of just had Jean stayed in the skirt up till now?
    I'm really sorry... I don't know what to say to you. I think it's one of those things that it either makes sense to you and you're happy with the explanation or it doesn't and you can't really understand why they made that decision. :/




    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    You may be right but I hope Gabby getīs back to life, it will be interesting to see how much the "clone ban" means in practice because truly I donīt see Logan or Laura stopping until seeing her back.
    I saw some poster suggesting that maybe one of the teens (best guess: Martha) will take Gaby's dead body and, by reanimating it, it might trigger the body's healing factor and bring Gaby back to life. It would make sense that they would try that considering they are experimenting with the body farm. Besides it's not the craziest idea I've seen in comics... so maybe the resurrection protocols won't become a source of drama after all (for this reason or some other. For instance, maybe Gaby's soul/essence/memories won't really be there, but Martha will keep impersonating her).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    From what I have seen he doesnīt often focus in just one character, more like he changes characterīs povs between scenes and itīs a nice way to explore their internal thoughts which I think has been lacking during this era. I am very curious to know what they want to do as X-men and how they plan to make both mutants humans protected by them :)
    That would make me a happy fan. Not only because I have a love affair with thought bubbles but because I really miss any form other manner in which the writer can display internal thoughts or feelings (through narration, actions, dialogue between characters), etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Lol to be fair, I think he has earned it, let Scott smile and be happy for once, it never last so itīs nice to see him smile once in a while.
    Nah. I've seen Scott happy since X-Men #6. His normal happiness and smile make me smile. His Krakoan happiness and smile creeps me out. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    ĄĄEnjoy!! :)
    After Planet Size, I'm very reticent to spend time with Mags. I don't want his booze anymore. I'm not even sure I'd want to hang out with Jean, to be honest. I'd first ask: "girl, did they tell you that terraforming Mars would come with changing the name of the planet, calling it the capital of the Solar System and picking a "regent" for the whole system?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Sorry for taking so long but itīs nice to see the threat so active, I loved Jean in Planet Size, would have not mind to see more interaction between her and Ororo but she was great there.
    Oh, don't worry. I'm happy to see you back. :)

    I'm always up for more interaction between Jean and 'Ro, so I agree with you. But I didn't expect much of it in this book, to be honest, so I'm not super disappointed either.

  13. #4618
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I saw some poster suggesting that maybe one of the teens (best guess: Martha) will take Gaby's dead body and, by reanimating it, it might trigger the body's healing factor and bring Gaby back to life. It would make sense that they would try that considering they are experimenting with the body farm. Besides it's not the craziest idea I've seen in comics... so maybe the resurrection protocols won't become a source of drama after all (for this reason or some other. For instance, maybe Gaby's soul/essence/memories won't really be there, but Martha will keep impersonating her).
    The body farm is supposed to be for investigation and thatīs why itīs on X-factorīs cuarters but it creeps me out how itīs drawn, I think they should build a morgue on Krakoa.

    Yes I also hope Gabby will be back quickly and without much drama.

    That would make me a happy fan. Not only because I have a love affair with thought bubbles but because I really miss any form other manner in which the writer can display internal thoughts or feelings (through narration, actions, dialogue between characters), etc...
    Exactly I have missed this and canīt wait to read new comics with thoughtīs bubles and sharing of feelings.

    Nah. I've seen Scott happy since X-Men #6. His normal happiness and smile make me smile. His Krakoan happiness and smile creeps me out. :P
    XD then you will have to wait until his tea runs out and he canīt get back to Krakoa for more

    After Planet Size, I'm very reticent to spend time with Mags. I don't want his booze anymore. I'm not even sure I'd want to hang out with Jean, to be honest. I'd first ask: "girl, did they tell you that terraforming Mars would come with changing the name of the planet, calling it the capital of the Solar System and picking a "regent" for the whole system?"
    Thatīs fine, heīs a heavy drinker and I was not sure he left much booze, he needs to work on that Well Mags pretty much shared his plan with Storm, Nightcrawler, Jean, Charles, Scott, etc and many others so yes I think they were ok with the plan, I guess they must be thinking of doing some nice diplomatic moves after the fact because the rest of the world is going to react, some good and bad but thereīs going to be a reaction. Still I think they see this as a better scenario than having Arrako make war to the rest of the world or a war between Krakoa and Arrako because they donīt let them try to take over the planet.



    Oh, don't worry. I'm happy to see you back.

    I'm always up for more interaction between Jean and 'Ro, so I agree with you. But I didn't expect much of it in this book, to be honest, so I'm not super disappointed either.
    Thank you

    Me neither it was nice to see them just interacting again.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 06-19-2021 at 09:08 PM.
    "To the X-men then, who donīt die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  14. #4619
    Incredible Member rhaenylis's Avatar
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    I'm re-reading Uncanny Avengers III and it's even better than I remembered
    I think X-Men will be a lot closer to UA style than Marauders

  15. #4620

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