Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Grinning Soul]

not everyone has read the comics, and many MANY fans were fans due to animated series, TV and movies.

it doesnt matter IF there were comics that did more with Jean, many never got to see that and the point my boss is making is that, the Phoenix DOES dominate Jean too much looking from the outside, and so my boss wants to simply explore more with her character so more non-comic Marvel fans can see other sides of her.

That’s indeed a big problem: a lot of people who hate Jean don’t actually know 616 Jean enough but they transfer those misconceptions to the 616 comic books when they read them and they never give her a fair chance.

That was my original point: there are echo chambers that are repeated and perpetrated without actual basis on facts. The original Jean Grey, the one in the 616 universe, is not the character of the cartoons or movies, but she is judged as if she was.

And you know? We, her fans can, try to tell other people they they are misinformed, but if they are very determined to hold on to their views, there’s nothing we can do, really… :(

i feel Marvel's overall media constructs the misconceptions with Jean's character (whether her being too perfect or Phoenix being the only thing to her) and it stirs the wrong kind of image for those who are non-comic fans (and EVEN some comic fans I've spoken with)

Exactly. Like I said, many comic book readers come to the comics from those other media with pré-conceived ideas and beliefs and they never give Jean a fair chance.

my boss said growing up she viscerally hated Jean grey in the 90's X-Men, for very valid reasons. That's the writers' fault. my boss is a GIRL and she hated one of the most prominent female X-men heroes over the writer's not delivering on the character well. Even in other series I feel... she's only built up to become phoenix and that's pretty much it. Evolution tried doing more with her character, but the series overal wasn't my cup of tea.

Yeah… but again, that’s not Jean Grey in the comics. It’s not fair to judge a character that is bigger and more complex and nuanced by the portrayal of other media which are based on the comics but never reach the same level of complexity, right? The cartoons were aimed at children. The movies didn’t have time or interest to develop her beyond anything other than the Phoenix because they wanted to exploit that particular story, knowing how powerful it is.

Still… again, it’s not fair to the comic book character.

the commendable thing she's said is "I want to like Jean Grey, and i want her to be a character of greater depth than everything i've ever seen of this character. I also want to challenge certain opinions of die hard fans to her character and to the Phoenix, but also offer to non-believers a reason to give Jean a second chance and see this character as relatable, awesome and not just the OP cosmic princess she's perceived to be... it would change the mind of "haters" (like she was) and at the very least they can start appreciating her".

What my boss has written contains plenty of that, but with more dimension.

That’s a good thing on principle and it might be wonderful, but if that’s supposed to be 616 Jean Grey, then certain parts of the character must be respected or the die hard fans - who have more than opinions of the character, but actual knowledge of the character - will not be pleased.

Character development is always welcomed, as long as the character is still recognizable.

You see what I mean? I’m not trying to be negative. I’m not saying there is only one right way to write 616 Jean Grey. I’m saying there are certain check boxes that must be checked. That’s all.

jean is VERY compassionate and always looks to solve problems. with the series starting them off as kids, Jean is Xavier's top student and someone everyone gravitates to bc of how well she can speak with anyone on their level, and is capable of penetrating a person's emotions, thoughts, or other mental conflicts and can decipher best means of resolution. She IS sometimes troubled by the things she discovers (like this vers of Scott) and in this story, she grew up kinda sheltered and being exposed to the real world is something that hits her hard from time to time.

However the added dimension is the "focus X-Man", who serves as her opposite. bc this person refuses to "let her in" for reasons personal and unknown, it stirs frustration in her. added that she has severe trust issues with said person, and without her realizing, brings out certain vices that my boss states reflects that sense of "self-righteousness" and "judgement" that even the kindest of ppl would be unaware of.

another added problem is "the focus X-Man" DOES seem to allow only a couple others more into their space, one being Thunderbird, who seems to understand this X-man so much, and always sways circumstances to "protect" said comrade. that also adds to the tension as Jean cant see how someone as seemingly cold and matter of fact as Thunderbird is "allowed in" but someone as "warm, understanding and compassionate" as her, is "kept out". this would spiral into various troubles and issues narrative wise that earns a different kind of self reflection and visible growth for the character.

Its an interesting interaction my boss says happens frequently in real life, and would be a great type of lesson in narrative format. non-comic fans dont get to see this visually and pointing to comic references don't always cut it. this would be

This seems like an interesting idea indeed. But it’s all in the execution, isn’t it?

A wonderful idea can be horribly wasted on poor execution. And a weak idea can generate a beautiful story when all pieces fall in place.

And I can’t judge the execution yet because I haven't read it. So what I'm trying to say is… it might be great, but I don’t have much else to add at this point. I’m sorry. :/

Jean wouldnt be wholly confident and if anything develops confidence in becoming the X-Men's leader. the death of one of the X-Men causes everything just about to fall apart so shes the only with means to rope everyone in, recruit new members and get the gang back on their feet, esp as times grow darker and more dismal.

so definitely she'd be open to suggestions, allowing others to help her see what she cant see, all the like. it would also be a great time to see Jean grey as herself without the dominance of the Phoenix, so good time for development :)

Sounds great to me. I do see Jean as a sort of glue that keeps people together when everything is falling apart. But I’d hate her to be above any pain caused by the loss of someone who is so close to her. A certain vulnerability/fragility makes any character feel more real. :)

that's what the whole idea is, its to allow for a compelling story to evolve from fan feedback and utilizing unique and different ideas.

the tone will shift from time to time, but I feel each writer and contributor has brought vivid ideas to the table, however the reason i'm in the forum is to SIMPLY get more insight from the outside. The plot will be made available for ARC I, and I will release it for discussion as soon as it becomes available.

perhaps creating topics could be more useful and prolly should label it by the character so it would see better attention.

I commend you for not only being open-minded but for actively looking for other points of view and I wish you, your boss and the group around you to be super successful. :)

Like I said in the previous post, though, I think it would be more efficient for you to actually ask questions in the proper character appreciation threads (if it pertains to a character) and to keep in mind that most people in this forum are comic book readers so their view will also mostly likely be based on the 616 versions of the characters unless you inform them that any other version of the character is also being taken into consideration (if that’s the case).

Another thing is that they’ll probably give you the answer based on the current comics and some characters are being portrayed quite different than the cartoons and films. So… maybe it’s useful if you talk a bit about the project, without of course giving any spoiler away. But just do they can frame their answer better.

[Grinning Soul]

Sigh here we go, I just hope this will have more curve balls than we are expecting, I like the image there too, it looks like this is the day after the Gala and I am curious who´s the one death, all my suspects are there :(

I think it's a certain young woman who was dancing with your favourite silver fox. :(

I guess you're right and this is happening after all the parties and after parties, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense.

Lastly, I'll reply to your bigger post tomorrow, okay? It's a bit late here.

[Lucyinthesky]

I think it's a certain young woman who was dancing with your favourite silver fox.

Noooo That seems to be the case but I believe it will be something else, because seriously since when the Avengers have a memorial at the place one of their own was killed? They have gone to war with the X-men for less than that.

I have a really crazy theory about who´s going to be but I will wait and see if I am right.

I guess you're right and this is happening after all the parties and after parties, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense.

Yes, they all must have a big headache.

Lastly, I'll reply to your bigger post tomorrow, okay? It's a bit late here.

It´s ok, don´t worry about it

[salarta]

Do you know what is an even bigger problem? It’s that Marvel writers themselves aren’t immune from this behaviour. You see? Lots of them were fans before they became writers and very few of them question the pre-conceived ideas they had as fans once they become writers. So guess what happens? They write them into their stories, many times ignoring continuity and just making the problem worse.

I've likewise noticed that's a common problem at Marvel. Grow up with poor treatment or see others praise it, then spend no time thinking critically about it. Just use it as if that past work was perfect. Same works conversely, when there's a lot of complaints about a work from people that either won't acknowledge good elements or are so beholden to nostalgia that they hate positive change. It seems to take a lot of time and work for Marvel to pause and analyze their actions - if they're receptive to criticism and self-reflection in the first place.

I think positive change can happen even in the face of a lot of that. It just might take more time and work than it should.

Well Jean was a part of it even with the retcon but I'm fine with blaming the D'Bari on the Phoenix lol Usually I hate retcons but some like Moira at least add something to the mythos. I'd hate a retcon absolving Scott of the affair. Retcons like that I can't with. In real life you have to own your mistakes and try to be better.

I think there's an important distinction between things a character does that can be bad but perfectly fitting for the character, and things that are bad because the writing or approach to it treated the character poorly. The former can and probably should stay intact, but the latter needs rewriting or retconning. Unfortunately, too often we see perfectly fitting character flaws tossed out because someone at Marvel wants their fave to be perfect. Or we see poor treatment persist because nostalgia dictates that treatment must be considered sacred enough for new work to double down on it with half-baked justifications. I can't say which case this is with things in Jean's history, but I think these issues happen way too often.

Wonder why she's the only one looking really shocked? Can't think of anyone particularly close to her dying, so I guess it's just an artist choice...

Cyclops looks to me like he might be shocked too, but he has the benefit of a visor the size of the Ever Given hiding most of his expression to tell for sure. I think it honestly would've been better if a male character had that facial expression instead. It's far too common for female characters to be treated like the "default" for that form of visual empathy. Her placement in the middle makes it pretty clear, IMO, that the reader is supposed to emotionally connect with her to feel shocked about the death.

[OmegaStorm87]

Why does this poster keep talking about their boss like we're supposed to know who it is or why it matters?

[Grinning Soul]

I think this is part of the bigger mystery being developed, from his first interview Hickman said fans would fight over the perception of the X-men so imo even the most problematic aspects of the run are part of the story, I just hope this leaves the X-men in a good place at the end but I would be lying if I didn´t say I prefer wholesome moments between the characters than horror and drama.

I think readers are really buying into anything. It’s scary sometimes. It feel like Marvel is conducting a social experiment. And actually, it not the first time it feels this way to me. But I digress.

I’m right there with you, my friend: give me some wholesome moments. That father-daughter talk, then dance in S.W.O.R.D., for instance, it was so sweet… :)

It doesn’t excuse what the father had just done, but that interpersonal moment was precious.

Onslaught Revelation will be out on September and it seems to be conected to SWORD and Trial of Magneto so that´s good, I guess we will find more about what´s going on on Charles mind during this run.

Yeah. And let’s hope it changes how those characters behave. I miss them being their regular selves.

Yes it looks like I understimated Brand,

I was so surprised. All of the previous interactions in S.W.O.R.D. gave me the impression she was genuinely committed to defending Earth and Earthers, no matter if they were mutants or humans.

she doesn´t want to control Earth, she wants to take over the universe and Mags is a terrible enabler, helping her get a new, habitable planet as a power center with Storm as the leader someone needs to stop them ;)

But seriously speaking, this looks like Brand is using Krakoa´s resources to attend a galactic need that earth leaders were not aware of or even cared enough to put energy or attention to it, even if it was going to turn on their home sooner or later and still this doesn´t put Earth under Mars rule, Mars is under mutant rule and SWORD found a way to make the galactic powers in the galaxy to recognize it as part of them, this doesn´t affect earth directly because they still have their own institutions and rule but mutants are taking care of matters no one of earth knew of or were interested in getting into. It´s an ambigious line, because Krakoa is not interested in ruling earth yet the powers that be at earth will react badly, not because the X-men are taking over earth but because they can´t have another factor to reduce their influence, still this is not a justification to join a genocidal organization that seeks to kill off an entire group of people. They could do so but then they must be honest with the reasons why they are doing it and it´s not the well being of humanity or the freedom of earth.

Look, while Storm might not be able to affect the internal politics of a country who doesn’t recognise her legitimacy, once other alien powers recognise Earth is part of the Solar System, under the rule of Mars, if Storm decides to declare war on another galactic power or they declare war on the Solar System, Earth *will* be at war with them either Earth wants it or not. Either they actively fight it or not. Because it’s not about what Earth feels or does anymore.

Do you see the problem with this possibility?

It’s a coup, Lucy, and Storm is a dictator. It doesn’t matter if this regime got to power in a violently or peacefully way: Earth didn’t agree to be under the rule of Mars, no one elected the regent. A coup is a coup. There’s no other way of seeing it or characterising it.

Orchis already existed in it´s previous form of Traks indrustries and all those anti-mutant groups, they are fighting an old war on a bigger level, the librarian showed Moira how the war itself was a way to give them time to develop sentinel tecnology until they became part sentinel, what they didn´t know was that all this would end in making them particulary able to be absorbed by the Phalanx give all of humanity a truly sad end, with the Shiár having to stop in before the Phalanx could extend their influence to other systems.

Moira mission, as far as we know, is to stop the phalanx, for this reason she needs to stop the advance of sentinel tecnology and to stop it, she needs to put the mutant - human war on hold as far as she can, Krakoa is the means to that end because if she gives the mutants and out and even a place on the wider universe, the most neutral members of humanity would see it with good eyes and may even be ready to work with Krakoa while the extremist ones who always saw mutants as bad will be kept contained by the unity of mutants. This is the plan so far. It´s a good one but crisis will come anyway because this is comics.

Two issues here:

1. Regardless of what the Librarian said, I think Moira’s mission isn’t to stop the Phalanx. I think she wants mutants to win the war. She'll deal with the Phalanx after.
2. Even if that’s Moira’s endgame, though, humans have no idea what’s coming and how far it is. So… how would anyone expect them to be understanding?

It´s fine, I will leave a message if something interesting happens with Jean over the X-men issues :)

I’ll keep reading for now. But if X-Men’s is disappointing,… yeah, that’s it. I’m out. And then I’ll only check the books again once this era is over.

Krakoa allows humans who are friends, family or guests so this whole discourse was just the writer, who I actually liked in other titles, creating artificial drama to push the confrontation between the FF4 and the X-men, otherwise we would just have a solo issue in which Franklin is given the invitation, he decides to go, his family go with him and they enter Krakoa together, not the best way to develop a crossover. I particulary hated how they wrote the X-men in this as probable kidnappers when they were the ones to take care of Franklin after the whole Onslaught saga and once the FF4 were back they reunited him with his family.

I know, I hate this crossover too, but it happened. It’s canon. I also hate AvX, but it’s also canon.

What can we do?

I would say both, the X-men were acting like jerks when they could have just send an invitation and the FF4 decided to infiltrate Krakoa just because Susan could not believe her beloved angels could do something as rash as going on their own to a strange place, it was like she has never meet her children. It got a little better at the end but this type of OC behavoir is the reason you don´t see a lot of writers referencing this event.

Sue made it clear that couldn’t believe the X-Men because she didn’t recognise them anymore. And can you blame her? The way the X-Men approached the family and the way they were ready to ignore the parents decision was beyond absurd. Those were not the people she once called her family.

It was harsh of hers? Yes. Would I have done the same? I don’t believe so. But do I blame her? Hell, no. Besides, I’m not a mother. What do I know? I might have done exactly the same in her position.

Genosha was ran by humans and mutant members and had a human ambassador called Alda Huxley that made the deal with the UN to put Magneto as their leader, it´s a myth genosha only had mutants living there and Morrison and Hickman can fight me over this ;)

I didn’t imply there wasn’t. I just meant it was an actual, separate territory.

Utopia was supported directly by the human authorities of San Francisco, with the mayor as it´s main supporter, they mostly keep to the island because they were a persecuted endangered species at the moment with villains like Bastion willing to kill them all with hundreds of sentinels, if they lived on San Francisco there would have been human casualties too.

Same thing: the comparison about Utopia and Jean’s proposal had to do with yet another island which is a territorial separation by definition.

Now, the way I see it, Utopia is a better compromise between separatist nation and the dream of co-existence than Genosha, but that’s a different discussion.

[Grinning Soul]

From what I am reading here and what I saw on X-men Red Jean is doing exactly what Scott did, for the same reasons and her idea would put mutants underwater, even more isolated thant they ever were on Genosha or Utopia,

That’s the thing: it was not. That was what the circumstances forced her to do at that moment.

When she first addresses the UN, there is no mention of creating a territory for this mutant nation. It’s in fact about a nation without a territory. It’s a high-level concept: the people is the nation, not the geography of where they live. And the reason she’s trying to have this new concept recognised is so that mutants have a voice in the UN, so they can have a seat even if they don't have a physical, geographical nation.

That is the whole difference. Got it?

like I get her intention but her actions were the same and for me at least she doesn´t have to justify them but I do dislike the hypocrisy of writers painting one character as good and another as evil when they are doing the exact same thing, just because they want to keep an artificial us vs them position. In here Jean is a nice mutant and Cyclops is a bad mutant, even if they are doing the exact same thing.

But that’s it: it’s not hypocrisy when the approaches are actually different.

Jean didn’t want to create an island or a territory for mutants to live. She said it herself that living on a place of their own only makes them a target, so why would she want that? That was clearly not her intention.

The underwater bunker - so to speak - was not intended to be the mutant nation forever. It was only a temporary sanctuary to be used while she dealt with the threat (that she would learn later was Cassandra Nova). It was *not* supposed to be permanent. At first, she just asked for T'Challa and Namor's support to her proposal because she didn't think she'd need to go into hiding. She didn't ask for space in their territories to create a mutant nation within it because that was never her goal.

Yes they are the same but at the time magic was involved and make it unable for human and mutants to have more mutant children,that´s why it was looked as an endangered species at the time, until the phoenix jumstarted mutant births around the world again.

They didn’t know that for sure, but let’s say it was the case.

Anyway, mutants and humans are the *same* species. “Endangered species” is technically an erroneous way of referring to a species when there are nearly 8 billion specimen of the species around. You understand what that means? It means mutants wanted to be seen as a different species, when they're not. That's why the term is divisive by definition.

But that’s again a different discussion. For the purposes of the “survival” theme of the time, in order to give the sense of urgency, it was misleading but understandable back then. But that was 15 years ago. In my opinion, it’s getting old and it’s severely limited the type of stories one can tell. I’d like us to move on and be free of this trap.

I don´t believe co-existence and mutant nations are mutually exclusive, you can have a nation with mutant and humans like Genosha, the devil is in the details how do you do it and what form will take the goverment.

I also don’t believe they are mutually exclusive. That’s the whole point: I’m saying that mutant nations will only be viable *after* peaceful co-existence is achieved so, by definition, they *have* to exist at the same time.

Charles dream is a good one but having a school of hiddren adolescents who only co-exist with other people like them to fight for humanity is a good basis for a superhero story but it´s not enough to help an entire group of people who have barely made it past constant attacks and genocide attempts or the get the other half of humanity to help them and see them as equals, not a danger or something that must be destroyed, that´s the problem, humans and mutants don´t see each other as equals, therefore they don´t see the point in coexisting. I guess that´s why people see more value in having a place of their own, like the mansion but on a bigger level.

Charles dream was a dream of co-existence pure and simple.

The way he thought it could be achieved was through two actions:

1.Teaching mutants to control their powers so they wouldn’t become a threat.
2.Having the mutants who would be inclined to work as team, like the Avengers, to do so to show humans their powers could benefit humanity and, hopefully, disperse the fear.

Now, we can argue it wasn’t the best way to achieve it. We can also argue it never made much sense that humans accepted powered people like the Avengers and didn’t accept powered people like the X-Men… But that’s not the discussion here.

The point that I’m trying to make is that just because the method to achieve co-existence was proven flawed, it doesn’t mean the dream is flawed.

The dream is *still* the only solution. But they haven’t tried new approaches to the dream in a very long while.

Krakoa is a good beggining but it needs to address the fact mutants can and will also have human babies and mutants will keep on getting born on the rest of planet earth, so it must develop it´s laws according to this reality and try to keep themselves from doing the same thing humans institutions did to them before.

I think the main problem with Krakoa is the fact they really believe mutants are very different than humans. While this might prove to be true in the future, the current adults who live in Krakoa were raised in human societies. You can’t just expect them to turn a switch and become different. That’s at the core of the many societal issues we’re seeing in Way of X.

I don´t think he lied but he knew Mars was going to be terraformed, he said to Steve - Come to the Gala because Steve wanted to know if Arakko would be a permanent presence on Earth so he wasn´t lying but he could have given Steve a heads up about how big their plans were going to be.

So, here’s the actual dialogue.

- Steve: The landmass of Krakoa ballooned by 500 percent, with a second island and satellite heat signatures indicating there are millions more mutants living in the South Pacific. There's more than just panic and alarm bells in the air. There are incidents everywhere. The entire planet went to DEFCON one.
- Scott: Yeah... I know what it must look like.
- Steve: I won't ask how it happened but I need to know if it's permanent.
- Scott: Ask me again in a few days. You're coming to the gala, right?
- Steve: I wasn't before but I am now.

So, I understand this as Scott really not knowing for sure what would be done about Arakko but intending to find out and talk about it to Steve at the gala.

But, then, at the gala, this is how the conversation goes, after the "fireworks":

- Scott: What did you think, Cap?
- Steve: Did you know about this when we met a few days ago?
- Scott: Well, not for certain but... I had an inkling.

So I guess all he knew is that there were plans to deal with the Arakko issue, and it would be implemented during the gala, but he didn't know what it was for sure even at the gala or he could have talked to Cap beforehand.

So, yeah, the QC kept it the whole terraforming and transferring the island to another planet from their Captain Commander. So that's my point: it's not a stretch to say the QC operated in a need-to-know basis.

At his best he´s able to do both, deep reflection and actions scenes, he has done great with Savage Avengers so I hope we see this side of him on this title too.

Yeah, but it’s not just a matter of the writer having the ability to do so. It’s also about the choice for the pacing/style of the narrative. We’ll have to see what direction he decides for the book.

It´s possible but the Gala itself was put on hold, it was supposed to happen on december last year so while I could see them making some changes I don´t think these were big changes.

We’ll never really know. But Way of X #3 was released already and Kurt didn’t say a thing about his voting when David criticised the endeavor... What can we do about it?

From the solicits it looks like Storm will have her problems dealin with them, she has to show them she´s an authority they can respect even if she´s not part of the ruling body so we will see how well she does, still, until Genesis or Apocalypse come back and tell them they have to attack earth, which we don´t know if they are going to be interested in doing, most of Arakko right now seems to be happy to play nice with the mutants who gifted them a new planet to live on.

Yeah, I don’t see them as a group being a problem right away. As individuals, I think some might still be a problem just cause they still have the same access to human cities they did before.

In the long run, though, as a group? Oh, yeah, I see them being a problem. A bigger problem. But we’ll have to wait and see.

[Zelena]

That’s indeed a big problem: a lot of people who hate Jean don’t actually know 616 Jean enough but they transfer those misconceptions to the 616 comic books when they read them and they never give her a fair chance.

It sounds as it is the kind of problem Wanda fans had with X-fans: for people who love Wanda, the Scarlet Witch is an hero and a courageous woman and cannot be reduced to her role in the “M thing”…

A beloved character represents something that cannot be destroyed easily by the work of an author: I still like the X-men although I dislike them in this run.

[Grinning Soul]

I've likewise noticed that's a common problem at Marvel. Grow up with poor treatment or see others praise it, then spend no time thinking critically about it. Just use it as if that past work was perfect. Same works conversely, when there's a lot of complaints about a work from people that either won't acknowledge good elements or are so beholden to nostalgia that they hate positive change. It seems to take a lot of time and work for Marvel to pause and analyze their actions - if they're receptive to criticism and self-reflection in the first place.

I think positive change can happen even in the face of a lot of that. It just might take more time and work than it should.

I agree. But I think we, as fans, are a part of it. And that’s why I’m always careful when I talk about my personal opinions, trying to frame them as such. And I try to point out what is factual and what is opinion about other statements. That’s the only way to slowly dispel those echo chambers and to actually promote a constructive discussion and to try to evolve the current thinking that many times is still very outdated.

I think there's an important distinction between things a character does that can be bad but perfectly fitting for the character, and things that are bad because the writing or approach to it treated the character poorly.

Exactly!

The former can and probably should stay intact, but the latter needs rewriting or retconning. Unfortunately, too often we see perfectly fitting character flaws tossed out because someone at Marvel wants their fave to be perfect. Or we see poor treatment persist because nostalgia dictates that treatment must be considered sacred enough for new work to double down on it with half-baked justifications. I can't say which case this is with things in Jean's history, but I think these issues happen way too often.

For Jean, herself, it’s mostly on little things that don’t really require a retcon per se, but simply ignoring that instance and writing her well in the future.

For instance, In X-Men Gold, when Rachel calls her “mom” she says “I’m not your mother”. I mean, they were over that issue since Jean's wedding in the 90s, when Rachel calls her mom while Jean hugs her. Seriously: as a writer, if you’re going to write this interaction, maybe actually read what came before?

What I would like to see happening concerning Jean is for the writers to recognise that, pre-Krakoan, the four times Logan kissed 616 Jean he did so *without* her consent. It’s abusive behaviour that should have never have been rewarded with the victim actually ending up in a romantic relationship with the abuser.

That was already problematic 18 years ago when Scott was pushed into a relationship with Emma. But this is 2021. We should be doing better.

[Grinning Soul]

It sounds as it is the kind of problem Wanda fans had with X-fans: for people who love Wanda, the Scarlet Witch is an hero and a courageous woman and cannot be reduced to her role in the “M thing”…

A beloved character represents something that cannot be destroyed easily by the work of an author: I still like the X-men although I dislike them in this run.

Yeah... I like Wanda too and it really upsets me she is getting all that hate. Like I said, current readers just buy whatever they read in the comics they read as the absolute truth. I find it scary, really.

I dislike most portrayals of the X-Men in this run. The only reason I'm still reading is because I think something external is affecting them. But if nothing changes after the Onslaught stuff? Then, I'm out. I have no interest in following those characters.

[Grinning Soul]

Why does this poster keep talking about their boss like we're supposed to know who it is or why it matters?

GMikey actually explained in another post: they're working with a group who is advising/giving feedback to a writer who is currently working for a project for Marvel. GMikey is collecting opinions/points of view from comic book readers to inform this writer's work. I applaud the effort even if our views don't end up translated in the final work.

[Grinning Soul]

Noooo :( That seems to be the case but I believe it will be something else, because seriously since when the Avengers have a memorial at the place one of their own was killed? They have gone to war with the X-men for less than that.

I have a really crazy theory about who´s going to be but I will wait and see if I am right.

Ooooh! Do share in a PM? :D

Since you're a big fan of Mags, wasn't there something about his only wearing black when it came to vengeance? If there was, I wonder if it's relevant.

Also... what if he's being tried under the "Respect this Sacred Land" law? Maybe someone was murdered and as he carried his vengeance he did something that was deemed disrespectful?

I wonder who would defend him... I'm not sure I want Jean involved in any of that. I'm still on the fence on this one. And I'm still not convinced it will actually provoke any schism in Krakoan society. But if it does and it means Jean gets to walk away from it, I'll be happy.

[PowerPlay25]

I dislike most portrayals of the X-Men in this run. The only reason I'm still reading is because I think something external is affecting them. But if nothing changes after the Onslaught stuff? Then, I'm out. I have no interest in following those characters.

ICA. I'm someone that really enjoyed "Protects a world that fears and hates them." I know it's subjective but that phrase and the way it applied to the X-Men made them one of the most heroic franchises ever. I also really liked that the X-Men felt like a dysfunctional family. Whatever triangle/disagreement was going on, I never once doubted that this group was a family.

Now. I tend to view the X-Men as a toxic work environment. I don't find them heroic, I don't find them especially likable. Their just 1-2 dimensional characters that are maneuvering for superiority.

I've been wanting Jean to branch out in the Marvel Universe for a long time. I actually find characters outside the X-Verse (Steve Rogers, Bucky Barnes, Clint, Natasha, Carol, Felicia Hardy, Stephen Strange and etc) much more engaging these days. I know all of this is subjective but I really miss liking/caring about X-Characters. The last time I did, was X-Men Red.

[Grinning Soul]

ICA. I'm someone that really enjoyed "Protects a world that fears and hates them." I know it's subjective but that phrase and the way it applied to the X-Men made them one of the most heroic franchises ever. I also really liked that the X-Men felt like a dysfunctional family. Whatever triangle/disagreement was going on, I never once doubted that this group was a family.

Now. I tend to view the X-Men as a toxic work environment. I don't find them heroic, I don't find them especially likable. Their just 1-2 dimensional characters that are maneuvering for superiority.

I've been wanting Jean to branch out in the Marvel Universe for a long time. I actually find characters outside the X-Verse (Steve Rogers, Bucky Barnes, Clint, Natasha, Carol, Felicia Hardy, Stephen Strange and etc) much more engaging these days. I know all of this is subjective but I really miss liking/caring about X-Characters. The last time I did, was X-Men Red.

I'm right there with you. I know it's subjective too. I'm not trying to force anyone to change their views. But if those new versions are actually them, then I don't care about these characters enough to keep reading the stories about them. I just don't.

So I'm hoping it will be revealed that something was actually affecting their behaviour. Then I can understand that and keep reading once they're back to the characters that compel me to dedicate time of my life to follow their journeys.

[Lucyinthesky]

I think readers are really buying into anything. ItÂ’s scary sometimes. It feel like Marvel is conducting a social experiment. And actually, it not the first time it feels this way to me. But I digress.

I think the job of writers is to surprise us with their writting and when they do it well it can become a classic, when they don´t it becomes a hated run but there´s always some fans who liked it despite it´s flaws. I believe Marvel got some new fans thanks to the X-men and Marvel movies who are not used to the way comics opperate and this sometimes can surprise even the writers and editors.

IÂ’m right there with you, my friend: give me some wholesome moments. That father-daughter talk, then dance in S.W.O.R.D., for instance, it was so sweetÂ…

It doesnÂ’t excuse what the father had just done, but that interpersonal moment was precious.

Exactly it was, I was very happy because they got to talk about Anya, Magneto never talked about her to the twins or Lorna so he´s definitely oppening himself more than usual.

I wish we could have more moments like that with the other characters because I felt this is exactly what I have been missing from them, the interpersonal warm hearted friendships, romance and values between mission and mission.

Yeah. And letÂ’s hope it changes how those characters behave. I miss them being their regular selves.

Agreed

I was so surprised. All of the previous interactions in S.W.O.R.D. gave me the impression she was genuinely committed to defending Earth and Earthers, no matter if they were mutants or humans.

She seems them both as earthers who have yet to learn to think bigger than their own planet it gives her a unique perspective but she also is used to make decisions that will affect others for their own good, she did this when Krakoa was being attacked by King in black, she was willing to rescue the five to ressurrect the rest if neccesary. She´s a secret agent that indeed wants to protect earth but under her own terms.

Look, while Storm might not be able to affect the internal politics of a country who doesnÂ’t recognise her legitimacy, once other alien powers recognise Earth is part of the Solar System, under the rule of Mars, if Storm decides to declare war on another galactic power or they declare war on the Solar System, Earth *will* be at war with them either Earth wants it or not. Either they actively fight it or not. Because itÂ’s not about what Earth feels or does anymore.

Do you see the problem with this possibility?

I see two problems with this because earth has never shown a unified response to this kind of things, even between the heros there had been secrets, civil wars and even under attack it usually takes them some time before acting as a unified front. This happened during Empyre and it was the reason why Brand got mad at them and left Alpha Fight.

Storm duties so far seem to be involved in stopping wars before they happen, like talking to the galactic empires before they decide invading earth seems like a good idea, of course this doesn´t cover the not-aligned galactic empires but in that case she has direct links to the X-men, Avengers, FF4 and Wakanda, etc to inform them before it hits, she usually doesn´t make such a big decision like declaring a war lightly and even when she does, she makes sure to inform every person involved, it´s part of the reason she makes sense as the leader of Arakko and I believe she was chosen for this same reason.

ItÂ’s a coup, Lucy, and Storm is a dictator. It doesnÂ’t matter if this regime got to power in a violently or peacefully way: Earth didnÂ’t agree to be under the rule of Mars, no one elected the regent. A coup is a coup. ThereÂ’s no other way of seeing it or characterising it.

Earth doesn´t have a unified goverment and Storm doesnt have authority over earth in any real sense of the world, all of the other countries could develop a similar system for space like Wakanda has or Latveria used to have in the 90´s, I don´t really see this as a coup because Storm doesn´t have authority over the countries of the world in any way that matters, not even in a symbolic way, what she does have are links to the super-hero groups of the world as well as most of goverments agencies because Krakoa is still part of the UN so something as big as an intergalactic war would have to be informed and maybe it would not quite take them by surprise this time.

Two issues here:

1. Regardless of what the Librarian said, I think MoiraÂ’s mission isnÂ’t to stop the Phalanx. I think she wants mutants to win the war. She'll deal with the Phalanx after.
2. Even if thatÂ’s MoiraÂ’s endgame, though, humans have no idea whatÂ’s coming and how far it is. SoÂ… how would anyone expect them to be understanding?

I agree we have seen so little about Moira that she could be anyone and have her own plans on the matter, what´s interesting was that this is what she told Charles and Magneto so they have been acting under this logic but we will see on Inferno what else is going to happen. I think Moira, Mystique and Destiny relationship will have the most importance given their place in the original HoX/PoX series.

IÂ’ll keep reading for now. But if X-MenÂ’s is disappointing,Â… yeah, thatÂ’s it. IÂ’m out. And then IÂ’ll only check the books again once this era is over.

That´s good, we all have to take our breaks, I did at the beggining of Morrison run and only came back after it was done and I was happy for having done so even if I had to tackle the decimation years, I never liked the tone of his run or the fact he introduced the concept of mutants as a different species to humans with the exception of some issues and Hickman does take after him in some ways even if he has his own style so I understand this is not every reader coup of tea.

I personally, not that happy with some of Krakoa main issues, like the crucible, the way ressurrection is done, the coldness on characters who used to be warmhearted and fun, their human families who supported them, etc and we most probably will get a secret wars scenario before things get better, so I completely understand fans who just don´t want to deal with all this, still the story is interesting to me so I will stay, I may as well agree with those fans that left once all is say and done or not but what´s being done is interesting to me.

I know, I hate this crossover too, but it happened. ItÂ’s canon. I also hate AvX, but itÂ’s also canon.

What can we do?

You know I hated AvX less than this crossover, because at least the ocness wasn´t so obvious but I still can ignore the parts I don´t like, writers and editors do it sometimes so why not the fans

Sue made it clear that couldn’t believe the X-Men because she didn’t recognise them anymore. And can you blame her? The way the X-Men approached the family and the way they were ready to ignore the parents decision was beyond absurd. Those were not the people she once called her family.

It was harsh of hers? Yes. Would I have done the same? I don’t believe so. But do I blame her? Hell, no. Besides, IÂ’m not a mother. What do I know? I might have done exactly the same in her position.

I see the point but not even on Krakoa era I have seen the X-men approaching a family this way, only Onslaught did this during his saga and that´s why I called it foul game on the writer part because he didn´t approach this in a way really involves real characterization in a crossover that´s supposed to be about both FF4 and the X-men, I probably would have given him more of a chance if he was new but he did a truly complex story in a previous FF4 work, so I really can´t take this any other way than him using the X-men as tugs to develop a story centered around the FF4 being victimized by them and as I said at the moment, he may as well have used the Kree and their judgments are more fun. Even more a lot of X-fans were excited to see the FF4 and X-men working together again, because this story was introduced as that so this was a huge let down, sure he tried to save some of it by having them work agaist Dr Doom in the end but this didn´t erase the bad taste and ocness from the beggining and worse this just feed the feeling X-men should stay isolated on their own corner of the MU so that´s why I appreciate titles like SWORD who at least has good characterization for everyone involved, including Cap and Dr Doom, without villanizing them to make the X-men more sympathetic.

I didn’t imply there wasn’t. I just meant it was an actual, separate territory.
Same thing: the comparison about Utopia and JeanÂ’s proposal had to do with yet another island which is a territorial separation by definition.
Now, the way I see it, Utopia is a better compromise between separatist nation and the dream of co-existence than Genosha, but that’s a different discussion.

I understand the territorial separation but when it comes to co-existence with humanity, you can have an island and have mutant and humans live there and coexist, so territory isn´t really important in this sense. This is why I liked the idea of Geonsha, it ended becoming the most clear place in which Co-existence had to happen on a day to day fashion but I also liked Utopia for what it was a neccesary refuge for a truly bad era for the mutants, same with Storm Limbo refuge and Jean idea of an underwater country. Now if we can advance Krakoa to a place in which it takes seriously the need for the presence of human family members and well as human children that by logic alone, should be there but I think we are just seeing smoke and mirrors, secrets and drama before we can get into the main story.