Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Does reading Jean as a victim of sexual assault make her and Scott more compelling? Yikes.

Also, playing further along these lines, I wonder, does Jean have Stockholm syndrome about the assault? She still chooses to associate with Logan.

I feel like Matthew Rosenberg would love this take. He was angling for a "Jean is suicidal without Scott" bit in his Astonishing annual and I could totally see him eating up a take about Jean being mentally traumatized by those initial interactions with Wolverine.

[Grinning Soul]

Does reading Jean as a victim of sexual assault make her and Scott more compelling? Yikes.

Also, playing further along these lines, I wonder, does Jean have Stockholm syndrome about the assault? She still chooses to associate with Logan.

It doesn't make her relationship with Scott more compelling. But it should make her relationship with Logan less compelling.

As for what's going on in this Krakoan era, I just don't know so I can't judge yet. But, on normal circumstances, Logan shouldn't be rewarded with a romantic relationship with Jean. Emma shouldn't have been rewarded with a romantic relationship with Scott either. That sends a message that abuse pays off and the relationship that comes after makes it all okay.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Ah, the "Emma raped Scott" thing. Lmao

[Grinning Soul]

Ah, the "Emma raped Scott" thing. Lmao

If Emma was a male character acting the way she did towards a female character, people would have no trouble calling it rape.

The legal definition of rape varies from country to country, so I'm not going to argue the term.

But, please, read New X-Men #131 again. It is abusive that a person who accepted to treat someone, gets in their mind without consent and traps this person in a telepathically illusion despite the fact they object to it or ask the "therapy" session to be over several times, including by saying literally: "I don't feel safe here". And still, the therapist keeps pushing.

As a therapist she was in a position of power. As a telepath she had literally all the power.

How is that not abusive, Kitty?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Lmao the entire point of that story is that Cyclops wanted to be exactly where he was. He was trying to deny himself in an effort to keep things as they had always been, despite him wanting something different.

And that's not up to interpretation. That's what the story says and that's what the writer of the story says. No rape involved whatsoever. The writer, going overboard with devotion to the character as Cyclops-focused writers tend to, even went as far as writing that the world pretty much ends if Cyclops doesn't start sleeping with Emma like he really wants to. lmao

Cyclops and Emma had all of the agency in the world and the universe confirmed their one-true-pair status by not succumbing to Sublime because Cyclops was around...because he got to have sex with Emma...as he wanted to.

Flash forward to today, we have to pretend that story didn't happen because today's Cyclops-focused writers prefer him with Jean out of sheer nostalgia, regardless of the preceding stories.

[Grinning Soul]

Lmao the entire point of that story is that Cyclops wanted to be exactly where he was. He was trying to deny himself in an effort to keep things as they had always been, despite him wanting something different.

And that's not up to interpretation. That's what the story says and that's what the writer of the story says. No rape involved whatsoever. The writer, going overboard with devotion to the character as Cyclops-focused writers tend to, even went as far as writing that the world pretty much ends if Cyclops doesn't start sleeping with Emma like he really wants to. lmao

Cyclops and Emma had all of the agency in the world and the universe confirmed their one-true-pair status by not succumbing to Sublime because Cyclops was around...because he got to have sex with Emma...as he wanted to.

Flash forward to today, we have to pretend that story didn't happen because today's Cyclops-focused writers prefer him with Jean out of sheer nostalgia, regardless of the preceding stories.

I'm not going to argue what Scott wanted or not, because that's not the point. Desire has nothing to do with actions. He didn't sleep with her in Hong Kong when he had the chance.

But the point regarding the abuse is that when he objected and asked Emma to stop the telepathic session, she didn't. And, as non-telepath, he couldn't get out of it. So again: how is that not abusive?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

What was the follow-up to the "abuse?" What happened next?

This argument is only viable reading like 3 pages of the story and then intentionally reading them even further out of the context that you can get from those pages, never mind the pages before and after that or the years of stories after that particular run.

[Omega_DCD]

As you noted, she basically used Lactuca as a compass, though I have read elsewhere she may have helped Exodus by telepathically enhancing his telekinesis and adding her own tk to his efforts. Also, I love your list of her feats; it all sounds so delicious.

Thanks, and thanks ��...and nice to read about how you've recently gotten back into comics due to Jean. I had a similar long term time off and then return around the time teen Jean(and the other original teen members) was introduced.

As a therapist she was in a position of power. As a telepath she had literally all the power.

I 100% agree and have said this in other places/discussions. I've posted series of pics of the many times Scott has voiced discomfort and also outright tells her to STOP.

It took a cosmic level universal re-write for Scott and Emma to "be together". They weren't some natural fit...just 2 broken individuals given comfort in their mutual insecurities for a time

[Grinning Soul]

What was the follow-up to the "abuse?" What happened next?

He gave in, as many victims do. That makes it okay?

[Grinning Soul]

I 100% agree and have said this in other places/discussions. I've posted series of pics of the many times Scott has voiced discomfort and also outright tells her to STOP.

It took a cosmic level universal re-write for Scott and Emma to "be together". They weren't some natural fit...just 2 broken individuals given comfort in their mutual insecurities for a time

And you know, if it had started differently, I wouldn't oppose to a relationship like you described: "just 2 broken individuals given comfort in their mutual insecurities for a time". But it started with abuse and abusers shouldn't be rewarded with a romantic relationship because abuse shouldn't pay off and the relationship should *not* make the abuse okay.

I'm glad someone else thinks like this. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

He "gave in" to himself. Or Emma has been mind-controlling him all this time. Or yet another Stockholm syndrome case. However you prefer lmao

[Grinning Soul]

He "gave in" to himself. Or Emma has been mind-controlling him all this time. Or yet another Stockholm syndrome case. However you prefer lmao

I'm not saying she telepathically took his free will away. That's not the bar that has to be cleared for abuse to happen, Kitty.

EDIT:

"Coercion describes any attempt to control your behavior with threats or manipulation.

Sexual coercion, then, happens when someone won’t accept “no” and continues to try to convince you to change your mind about engaging in sexual activity."

https://www.**********.com/health/se...ercion-defined

[Devaishwarya]

Same characters but...different eras. Different writers. Different stories. Different intentions.

With comics most times you just have to let go of past/previous iterations or just don't view past/ previous iterations with modern day sensibilities because what was basically "harmless" 50 years ago... isn't in today's world. If you can't let go of the past or at the very least, divorce it from the present it will be very difficult to enjoy what we have here and now.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The reality presented in that instance, and many instances afterward, is that our fabled main character chose to engage with Emma. Not forced. He even took his own shirt off lol.

He wasn't raped. Or coerced. They wanted to bang and so they started to do so before being interrupted. Then, once Jean was properly out of the way, they made a show of doing so. That's the whole of it.

Now, with that said, I had to look at the fricking omnibus again for the first time in a while and now I need a real continuation of the characters from the Morrison run.

Today's fake, characterless nonsense won't do.

"Oh look they are all drinking beers, *swoon*." Smh.
This era is lame.

This is why we don't look back at Morrison.

[Grinning Soul]

The reality presented in that instance, and many instances afterward, is that our fabled main character chose to engage with Emma. Not forced. He even took his own shirt off lol.

He wasn't raped. Or coerced. They wanted to bang and so they started to do so before being interrupted. Then, once Jean was properly out of the way, they made a show of doing so. That's the whole of it.

Now, with that said, I had to look at the fricking omnibus again for the first time in a while and now I need a real continuation of the characters from the Morrison run.

Today's fake, characterless nonsense won't do.

"Oh look they are all drinking beers, *swoon*." Smh.
This era is lame.

This is why we don't look back at Morrison.

Kitty, it's super later here. So it's the last message before I go to bed.

I know you really don't like Scott. I'm not asking you to like him or to forgive him of all blame. In fact, I'd you like you to forget about him for a minute and just, please, answer me this:

How many times does a person have to tell another "that's not what I asked", "that's now what I want", "stop", "I don't feel safe" or anything of that nature so you would consider the other person becomes abusive?