Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Only once, provided that they aren't fictional characters who I know happen to go on to do exactly what one of them said they didn't want to do while actually really wanting to do it.

You are trying to argue that a character was being abused absent context. We aren't talking about a real life abusive situation.

Nor even a fictional one.

Does the story go "then Cyclops finally escaped from Emma after being raped continuously" or does it go "then Cyclops' wife died so he pursued the relationship he he wanted the whole time"?

We know the answer to that question. The story has been written. You are making light of *actual* abuse with this nonsense.

[Spiderfan001]

The reality presented in that instance, and many instances afterward, is that our fabled main character chose to engage with Emma. Not forced. He even took his own shirt off lol.

He wasn't raped. Or coerced. They wanted to bang and so they started to do so before being interrupted. Then, once Jean was properly out of the way, they made a show of doing so. That's the whole of it.

Now, with that said, I had to look at the fricking omnibus again for the first time in a while and now I need a real continuation of the characters from the Morrison run.

Today's fake, characterless nonsense won't do.

"Oh look they are all drinking beers, *swoon*." Smh.
This era is lame.

This is why we don't look back at Morrison.

I would say that Emma didn't use telepathy on him.
Scott approached her and truth be told Emma was just using this as a ways to get to the bottom of what was Scott's problem at the start and then she caught feelings.
In a AvX tie-in in scott's prespective he admits he cheated and that Emma was everything Jean wasn't(IIRC) and what he needed.
He could have just ended the telepathic connection anytime, it's like he was kissing her and asking her to stop at the same time.

As for reversing gender's that just society's double standard.A lot of female celebrities have said and done stuff that if a male one said or did would be cancelled.Same in fiction.

And let's give the opposite argument the benefit of the doubt.We know in canon she didn't outright take his will, let's say she pushed him.In way of X 3 Stacy X is using her powers to make people loose their barriers and do what they want.I would say that is much more severe.
There are people with pheromone powers like Jessica drew and Silk and Peter banged(not out-right stated but pretty clear) because of them.
Spider-man was a victim of SA with Spider-queen. Nightwing with Tarantula,etc.
They don't really address this stuff for guys as compared to Jessica Jones and Black cat(retcon and most people don't like it, I don't either but everything else in the story was decent).

I agree that they need to do a much better job at the relations department in Hix-man. It's one of if not the weakest link.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I would say that Emma didn't use telepathy on him.
Scott approached her and truth be told Emma was just using this as a ways to get to the bottom of what was Scott's problem at the start and then she caught feelings.
In a AvX tie-in in scott's prespective he admits he cheated and that Emma was everything Jean wasn't(IIRC) and what he needed.
He could have just ended the telepathic connection anytime, it's like he was kissing her and asking her to stop at the same time.

As for reversing gender's that just society's double standard.A lot of female celebrities have said and done stuff that if a male one said or did would be cancelled.Same in fiction.

And let's give the opposite argument the benefit of the doubt.We know in canon she didn't outright take his will, let's say she pushed him.In way of X 3 Stacy X is using her powers to make people loose their barriers and do what they want.I would say that is much more severe.
There are people with pheromone powers like Jessica drew and Silk and Peter banged(not out-right stated but pretty clear) because of them.
Spider-man was a victim of SA with Spider-queen. Nightwing with Tarantula,etc.
They don't really address this stuff for guys as compared to Jessica Jones and Black cat(retcon and most people don't like it, I don't either but everything else in the story was decent).

I agree that they need to do a much better job at the relations department in Hix-man. It's one of if not the weakest link.

Yes, the great Kieron Gillen had Cyclops drop the everything Jean isn't and everything I need (don't remember exact wording) line. He also did the pheromone thing with his villain, Unit, who needs to come back.

My thing with people and connections, both real and fictional, is live life honestly and don't waste anyone else's time. If the reason you don't rip someone else's clothes off is mostly out of simple duty and feigned forthrightness to your current partner, you've already cheated. Give that partner the opportunity to go find the person that is passionate about them. That was Scott and Emma in the Morrison run; they should have got together and did get together because that's what they ultimately wanted. Jean acknowledged that herself in the story.

What that should have meant for Jean, after waking up from her 15-year dirt nap, is that she must explore and find that person that wants her, and vice versa, the same way Scott and Emma wanted each other. Who might she connect with when it's not about duty or just sticking to what she has always known? That's the kind of story and potential and drama that has been earned and should be played out to full effect.

Instead, we get 0 character study at all.

[Grinning Soul]

Only once, provided that they aren't fictional characters who I know happen to go on to do exactly what one of them said they didn't want to do while actually really wanting to do it.

You are trying to argue that a character was being abused absent context. We aren't talking about a real life abusive situation.

Nor even a fictional one.

Does the story go "then Cyclops finally escaped from Emma after being raped continuously" or does it go "then Cyclops' wife died so he pursued the relationship he he wanted the whole time"?

We know the answer to that question. The story has been written. You are making light of *actual* abuse with this nonsense.

“You are making light of *actual* abuse with this nonsense.” - First of all, please, let’s not get personal like this or this discussion will stop being about the comics. If you don’t want to talk about this subject anymore, that’s fine. Please, just let me know. I don't want to push you.

“You are trying to argue that a character was being abused absent context. We aren't talking about a real life abusive situation. Nor even a fictional one.” - Well, yes… That’s what I’m arguing. But how are we supposed to discuss anything about fiction if we don’t compare it with reality? Does the definition of “abuse” change for the 616 continuity? And if so, what is the definition, then?

The point I’m trying to make here is that, for any discussion to be held, we need to have some common ground. Again: if you don’t want to talk about it anymore, please, just let me know.

“Does the story go "then Cyclops finally escaped from Emma after being raped continuously" or does it go "then Cyclops' wife died so he pursued the relationship he he wanted the whole time"?” - the story goes on with two more instances of the affair in which we see that Scott is hesitant, tells Emma he doesn’t feel right about it, has to be convinced to go on with it again. Then Jean finds out, he runs away, comes back in time for her death and decides to reject Emma’s proposal and leave the X-Men, having to be literally pushed into a relationship with Emma.

None of that matters, though. I’m not arguing he didn’t have any desire for Emma, because we know he did. But I’m arguing that his feelings and intentions don’t matter. Most people, when in a committed relationship, will still feel attracted to other people. That’s not cheating, that’s just hormones or loneliness or both. But feeling attracted to someone does *not* give them the excuse for abuse.

That being said, yes, he gave in. And he knows that means he cheated. He tells that to Emma himself and then to the professor when Jean finds it out. I’m not arguing against it.

But again, that does not make what Emma did any less abusive. And that was my original point: she shouldn’t have been rewarded with a romantic relationship *exactly* because it excuses the abuse.

[Grinning Soul]

I would say that Emma didn't use telepathy on him.
Scott approached her and truth be told Emma was just using this as a ways to get to the bottom of what was Scott's problem at the start and then she caught feelings.

No, Emma didn’t try to get to the bottom of Scott's problem. She never actually deals with what was causing the communication problems between Scott and Jean - which was exactly what he asked Emma to help him with.

Scott and Jean were doing fine before The Twelve. They had decided to stay in Alaska for a while to try to start their own family together. They had no communication problems. Literally, the only thing that happens that make it change is Scott's being possessed by Apocalypse. That is the cause. Once Jean and Cable rescues him, he's shattered inside, dealing massive trauma.

Emma simply dismisses his trauma and focus on the marriage as if that was the problem instead. That is not what a therapist should do.

And it’s definitely not what a therapist should do when the patient doesn’t agree with the methods. Scott makes it clear he just wants to talk. But she traps him in a telepathic session and she’s control of the situation: she chooses to start it while he’s piloting, she makes him feel like falling, she makes him feel afraid and unsafe, she symbolically strips him away from his past uniforms, etc…

This is very manipulative. And yes: after Jean finds out about the affair, Emma confess to Logan exactly that: "(...) I'm so shallow... and spitefull... and... manipulative(...)"

She wasn’t trying to help Scott at first. She was dealing with her own very big recent traumas and being selfish and trying to hurt Jean because she was very jealous of her. She didn’t plan on falling in love with Scott, but she wasn't trying to help him either.

In a AvX tie-in in scott's prespective he admits he cheated and that Emma was everything Jean wasn't(IIRC) and what he needed.

Do you remember in which issue? I’m curious, but I think there is a case to be made there, actually, which still doesn’t excuse the abuse. But, at that moment, because of the problems they were having, Jean couldn’t have helped him indeed because he couldn’t let her help him.

He could have just ended the telepathic connection anytime, it's like he was kissing her and asking her to stop at the same time.

Scott is not a telepath. He literally could not have stopped the telepathic connection. Could he had resisted longer? Maybe. I think he would have on normal circumstances, but you have to remember, he was dealing with actual trauma from the possession from Apocalypse. Scott was at his most fragile moment ever and that says a lot when you think of all the trauma this guy experienced in his life. We can’t judge him as if he had been at his most stable, confident ever. He wasn’t, even if he had the illusion that it was the case.

We can talk about it in more depth if you want. I’ll just ask we move it to private messages because then it really has nothing to do with Jean anymore.

(The discussion of the abuse is connected to Jean because I was making a point of why she shouldn’t be in a romantic relationship with Logan either).

As for reversing gender's that just society's double standard.A lot of female celebrities have said and done stuff that if a male one said or did would be cancelled.Same in fiction.

But that doesn’t make what the male celebrities did or said right. Double standards should always be avoided, not used as an excuse to justify bad behaviour from any parts.

And let's give the opposite argument the benefit of the doubt.We know in canon she didn't outright take his will, let's say she pushed him.In way of X 3 Stacy X is using her powers to make people loose their barriers and do what they want.I would say that is much more severe.
There are people with pheromone powers like Jessica drew and Silk and Peter banged(not out-right stated but pretty clear) because of them.
Spider-man was a victim of SA with Spider-queen. Nightwing with Tarantula,etc.
They don't really address this stuff for guys as compared to Jessica Jones and Black cat(retcon and most people don't like it, I don't either but everything else in the story was decent).

Exactly. They don’t. Society has more difficulty in recognising abuse when the victim is male. But this should change. Abuse is wrong regardless of who is the victim and who is the abuser.

I agree that they need to do a much better job at the relations department in Hix-man. It's one of if not the weakest link.

I agree with it too.

[Wiccan]

There's like a whooole spectrum between "completely healthy relationship" and "rape". Scott/Emma started under problematic circumstances but she definetely didn't rape him. And no it doesn't have to do with gender. If the genders were inversed, yeah, a lot more people would see Emma as creepy. But if the story was exactly the same, then no, he(Emmett Frost? lol) would still not be a rapist or abuser.

[Grinning Soul]

There's like a whooole spectrum between "completely healthy relationship" and "rape". Scott/Emma started under problematic circumstances but she definetely didn't rape him. And no it doesn't have to do with gender. If the genders were inversed, yeah, a lot more people would see Emma as creepy. But if the story was exactly the same, then no, he(Emmett Frost? lol) would still not be a rapist or abuser.

I'm very careful when I use the word "rape", because legally it's defined very differently and I know it is a sensitive topic for the victims themselves.

But I think proceeding with any action towards someone without their consent is abusive. Especially if they expressed they want it to stop.

Like I said, though, it's hard to have a discussion without some common ground: so what is your definition of abuse?

[Spiderfan001]

There's like a whooole spectrum between "completely healthy relationship" and "rape". Scott/Emma started under problematic circumstances but she definetely didn't rape him. And no it doesn't have to do with gender. If the genders were inversed, yeah, a lot more people would see Emma as creepy. But if the story was exactly the same, then no, he(Emmett Frost? lol) would still not be a rapist or abuser.

I mean if they reverse the gender's that character would be cancelled so fast.
And way more people would consider him an abuser.
Twitter would have been wild.

[Wiccan]

I'm very careful when I use the word "rape", because legally it's defined very differently and I know it is a sensitive topic for the victims themselves.

But I think proceeding with any action towards someone without their consent is abusive. Especially if they expressed they want it to stop.

Like I said, though, it's hard to have a discussion without some common ground: so what is your definition of abuse?

Well, abuse is a very general term that doesn't just mean sexual. So I'm not sure. A lot of people say she abused her power as his therapist, but I never took the idea of her being a therapist seriously. They weren't in an office, there was no schedule, proper analysis, nothing. It's more akin how some people say their best friend is like a therapist because they tell them their problems and they try to help. And a little bit of roleplay like "I'm your sex therapist *wink wink*".

She did take advantage of him being on a vulnerable mental state. But I'm not sure someone having trauma and issues necessarily makes the people who enter some kind of relationship with them abusers.

I don't remember the details of how the scenes were written. But even if Scott initially told her no, it wasn't just one night, it was a whole affair that was onggoing for a little while. So whatever she might have done wrong in the first time, Scott still willingly engaged in the affair. You could maybe argue Emma is "abusive" as in that she's toxic and manipulative, but in the same way people do with a lot of fictional couples, not that she actually did something that constitutes as such objectively and legally.

[Spiderfan001]

No, Emma didn’t try to get to the bottom of Scott's problem. She never actually deals with what was causing the communication problems between Scott and Jean - which was exactly what he asked Emma to help him with.

Scott and Jean were doing fine before The Twelve. They had decided to stay in Alaska for a while to try to start their own family together. They had no communication problems. Literally, the only thing that happens that make it change is Scott's being possessed by Apocalypse. That is the cause. Once Jean and Cable rescues him, he's shattered inside, dealing massive trauma.

Emma simply dismisses his trauma and focus on the marriage as if that was the problem instead. That is not what a therapist should do.

And it’s definitely not what a therapist should do when the patient doesn’t agree with the methods. Scott makes it clear he just wants to talk. But she traps him in a telepathic session and she’s control of the situation: she chooses to start it while he’s piloting, she makes him feel like falling, she makes him feel afraid and unsafe, she symbolically strips him away from his past uniforms, etc…

This is very manipulative. And yes: after Jean finds out about the affair, Emma confess to Logan exactly that: "(...) I'm so shallow... and spitefull... and... manipulative(...)"

She wasn’t trying to help Scott at first. She was dealing with her own very big recent traumas and being selfish and trying to hurt Jean because she was very jealous of her. She didn’t plan on falling in love with Scott, but she wasn't trying to help him either.



Do you remember in which issue? I’m curious, but I think there is a case to be made there, actually, which still doesn’t excuse the abuse. But, at that moment, because of the problems they were having, Jean couldn’t have helped him indeed because he couldn’t let her help him.



Scott is not a telepath. He literally could not have stopped the telepathic connection. Could he had resisted longer? Maybe. I think he would have on normal circumstances, but you have to remember, he was dealing with actual trauma from the possession from Apocalypse. Scott was at his most fragile moment ever and that says a lot when you think of all the trauma this guy experienced in his life. We can’t judge him as if he had been at his most stable, confident ever. He wasn’t, even if he had the illusion that it was the case.

We can talk about it in more depth if you want. I’ll just ask we move it to private messages because then it really has nothing to do with Jean anymore.

(The discussion of the abuse is connected to Jean because I was making a point of why she shouldn’t be in a romantic relationship with Logan either).



But that doesn’t make what the male celebrities did or said right. Double standards should always be avoided, not used as an excuse to justify bad behaviour from any parts.



Exactly. They don’t. Society has more difficulty in recognising abuse when the victim is male. But this should change. Abuse is wrong regardless of who is the victim and who is the abuser.



I agree with it too.

Oh okay.
There was definitely hurtful intent she had for Jean.
And she does similar telepathic sessions in Whedon Astonishing run to help him.But they were dating there.

Not exactly.I'll let you know when I find it.

I think people can stop telepathic connections or at least fight them.Specially since Emma wasn't forcing him to stay.And Emma wasn't being subtle, as soon as she made it clear this was going into romantic territory he should have stopped and told Jean.The fact that Jean found out on her won is terrible.

Never said that and not justifying anyone's actions.Just saying that Female celebrities and get away with a lot of stuff that would be a serious issue if it was a male.Everyone knows the infamous Amber heard stuff yet she is still in Aquaman 2 and JD was forced to resign from fantastic beasts.One lesser known one is that there is a panel of the actor of Pepper Potts(don't know how to spell her real name) where she is talking about RDJ and if you reverse the roles RDJ would face serious consequenses. There are many examples but this gets the point across.

I mean they at minimum should deal with the blatant cases.Batgirl and the killing joke is a big deal but the Nightwing tarantula thing is not even though one is clearly more severe.

[Spiderfan001]

Well, abuse is a very general term that doesn't just mean sexual. So I'm not sure. A lot of people say she abused her power as his therapist, but I never took the idea of her being a therapist seriously. They weren't in an office, there was no schedule, proper analysis, nothing. It's more akin how some people say their best friend is like a therapist because they tell them their problems and they try to help. And a little bit of roleplay like "I'm your sex therapist *wink wink*".

She did take advantage of him being on a vulnerable mental state. But I'm not sure someone having trauma and issues necessarily makes the people who enter some kind of relationship with them abusers.

I don't remember the details of how the scenes were written. But even if Scott initially told her no, it wasn't just one night, it was a whole affair that was onggoing for a little while. So whatever she might have done wrong in the first time, Scott still willingly engaged in the affair. You could maybe argue Emma is "abusive" as in that she's toxic and manipulative, but in the same way people do with a lot of fictional couples, not that she actually did something that constitutes as such objectively and legally.

I mean scott did come to her first.
And came back to her while lying to her wife.
And many fictional couples are toxic in that way, which is a bad thing.

I just don't get the abuser angle when He was the one to approach her, she didn't trick him and wasn't subtle and he came back to her.
As for Emma being rewarded with the relationship, she stood by him in all his decisions(The schism,etc.) and even after he betrayed her and took her phoenix and stuck by him.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

"Emma and Jean made him do it", is not a redeeming story, on top of being not what was written anyway lol.

[Grinning Soul]

Well, abuse is a very general term that doesn't just mean sexual. So I'm not sure. A lot of people say she abused her power as his therapist, but I never took the idea of her being a therapist seriously. They weren't in an office, there was no schedule, proper analysis, nothing.

I agree. But I think that's part of the problem. When he asked her to help him and she agreed to do so, if she was interested in actually treating him, she should have scheduled a session and they should have agreed on what it would be like.

Instead, she highjacks his mind while he's piloting and refuses to let him go even when he explicitly says he doesn't want that kind of therapy. That he just wants to talk.

That is already part of the abuse.

It's more akin how some people say their best friend is like a therapist because they tell them their problems and they try to help. And a little bit of roleplay like "I'm your sex therapist *wink wink*".

But again: he didn't agree to that. When she starts with the telepathic session, he tells her that:

"I need a little marriage guidance, Emma. That's all."
"Stop this!!"
"I only wanted to talk."
"I don't feel safe here."
"I don't need this!"

She did take advantage of him being on a vulnerable mental state. But I'm not sure someone having trauma and issues necessarily makes the people who enter some kind of relationship with them abusers.

A person who comes after the previous relationship is over is certainly not an abuser. A person who acts as a catalyst to break the relationship apart, while they were supposed to be trying to help someone who is a vulnerable metal state? I don't think it gets any more abusive than that. But we may disagree here, of course.

I don't remember the details of how the scenes were written. But even if Scott initially told her no, it wasn't just one night, it was a whole affair that was onggoing for a little while.

There were three instances of the affair in which he's never comfortable with it. Some level of co-ersion is always present. Emma could not convince him to have a physical affair, but telepatically she was able to give him excuses, manipulating him to give in.

So whatever she might have done wrong in the first time, Scott still willingly engaged in the affair. You could maybe argue Emma is "abusive" as in that she's toxic and manipulative, but in the same way people do with a lot of fictional couples, not that she actually did something that constitutes as such objectively and legally.

Again: she didn't take his free will away, but "willingly" makes it sound as if he was more in control than he actually was.

A victim of abuse who gives in is still a victim.

And I am focusing on the first time because that was exactly my point from the start. An abuser shouldn't be rewarded with an actual romantic relationship because it has two double negative implications:

1) it makes the abuse pays off
2) the relationship excuses the abuse

[Grinning Soul]

Oh okay.
There was definitely hurtful intent she had for Jean.
And she does similar telepathic sessions in Whedon Astonishing run to help him.But they were dating there.

And there - I believe, but I'd have to check - she has his consent. I have no problem with telepathic therapy per se.

Not exactly.I'll let you know when I find it.

Thank you.

I think people can stop telepathic connections or at least fight them.Specially since Emma wasn't forcing him to stay.

Yes, she was forcing him to stay. That's some of the explicit objections of his:

"I need a little marriage guidance, Emma. That's all."
"Stop this!!"
"I only wanted to talk."
"I don't feel safe here."
"I don't need this!"

And Emma wasn't being subtle, as soon as she made it clear this was going into romantic territory he should have stopped and told Jean.The fact that Jean found out on her won is terrible.

He couldn't have stopped it. He could only have resisted longer. But there's a cut in the scene and we don't know how long he actually resisted. And on top of that, he's not in a stable, mentally or emotionally strong state.

Should he have told Jean? Yes. But he couldn't even talk to her about what he was feeling prior to the affair - the reason why he asked for help.

He just couldn't talk to her, there were too many psychological barriers and the affair just made it worst.

Never said that and not justifying anyone's actions.Just saying that Female celebrities and get away with a lot of stuff that would be a serious issue if it was a male.Everyone knows the infamous Amber heard stuff yet she is still in Aquaman 2 and JD was forced to resign from fantastic beasts.One lesser known one is that there is a panel of the actor of Pepper Potts(don't know how to spell her real name) where she is talking about RDJ and if you reverse the roles RDJ would face serious consequenses. There are many examples but this gets the point across.

Yes, there are. And they're just as wrong.

I always try to be fair. For instance, it bothers me female objectification, so when I see male objectification I also try to point it out.

I mean they at minimum should deal with the blatant cases.Batgirl and the killing joke is a big deal but the Nightwing tarantula thing is not even though one is clearly more severe.

But I think the more subtle cases are also harmful. We don't teach inter-personal relationships at school. Pop culture has a huge effect on how people understand limits and consent and I think we should try to aim to portray healthy relationships or to portray very clearly that an abusive/toxic relationship is abusive/toxic.

And back to my original point: we should never reward the abuser with a romantic relationship with the victim.


EDIT: healthy relationships aren't necessarily perfect, by the way, that's not what I meant.

[TheDeadSpace]

Not exactly.I'll let you know when I find it.

Not really looking to get involved in the conversation, but the issue is Uncanny X-men #19 by Gillen. A tie in to AvX.

To tie it to Jean in some way, Scott does interact with the White hot room and Jean very briefly in that issue (if my memory serves me right).

Makes me wonder if she has any memories postmortem.